4101 replies to this topic

[Abramelin]

Everdred, on 31 January 2013 - 12:15 PM, said:

I don't know any Phoenician/Punic, so I can't say what the base of Gadir is, but what really matters is what the Romans thought it was, and they aren't necessarily going to adapt things on the basis of the etymological roots of a foreign tongue.

Meanwhile the Kadesh explanation has the difficulty of the initial consonant being voiceless, whereas Gadir and Gades both have it voiced.  This is a common sound change for languages evolving over time, but for a direct borrow there is no reason for the change to be made considering that Latin had both sounds.

The Romans adopted the name that was most commonly used for that city.

A bit like the city I was born in, 's-Gravenhage, which is most times shortened to Den Haag. And that name has been translated into every other language (The Hague, La Haye, and so on).

Another known example is Jerusalem, which is also known as Zion, and Al-Quds (=Holy City).



This is what Gadir means:

Gadir (Phoenician: גדר), the original name given to the outpost established here by the Phoenicians, means "wall, compound", or, more generally, "walled stronghold". The Punic dialect lent this word, along with many others, to the Berber languages, where it was nativised as agadir meaning "wall" in Tamazight and "fortified granary" in Shilha; it appears as a common place name in North Africa. The name of the Israeli town of Gedera has a similar etymology.

Later, the city became known by a similar Attic Greek form of the Phoenician name, τὰ Γάδειρα (Gádeira). In Ionic Greek, the name is spelled slightly differently, Γήδειρα (Gḗdeira). This spelling appears in the histories written by Herodotus. Rarely, the name is spelled ἡ Γαδείρα (Gadeíra), as, for example, in the writings of Eratosthenes (as attested by Stephanus of Byzantium).

In Latin, the city was known as gades; in Arabic, it is called قادس (Qādis). The Spanish autonym for a resident of Cadiz is gaditano.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cadiz


Btw,  K, Q, and G are all voiceless consonants:

http://en.wikipedia....i/Voicelessness

And a famous example of a shift from K to G (or CH) is our word chemistry which came from al kimia. I know that in English this CH still sounds like a K, but not in my language where this CH is pronounced like the CH in Loch Ness.

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Edited by Abramelin, 31 January 2013 - 12:59 PM.

[Abramelin]

What is kind of interesting us that Kalta suddenly becomes Kaltana:

Sandbach:
From this castle she ruled as a true mother, against their will, not for her followers, but over them, who were thenceforth called Kelts.

OLB:
Fon thjus burch welde** hju lik en efte moder, navt to wille fâr men over hira folgar aend tham hjara selva forth Kaeltana hêton.

Mine:
Van deze burcht heerste zij gelijk een wettige (ehaft) Moeder, niet ter wille van maar over hare volgers, en daarna haarzelve voorts Kaeltana noemde.

Again:
From this burgh she ruled like a lawful Mother, not for the sake of but over her followers, and thereafter called herself Kaeltana.

[** Welde: http://www.etymonlin...rchmode=none  ]

Btw: I'm not sure about the 'herself'. Maybe it's 'themselves'.


Kaltana? Caledonii.


Kalta and her people eventually settled in Scotland. And what people lived there?

Caledones (Caledonii)
This is the name of peoples who lived in the Scottish Highlands and Islands. The Romans used the word Caledones to describe both a single tribe who lived in the Great Glen between the modern towns of Inverness and Fort William. They also called all the tribes living in the north Caledonians. We know the names of some of these other tribes. They include the Cornovii and Smertae who probably lived in Caithness, the Caereni who lived in the far west of the Highlands, the Carnonacae and the Creones in the Western Highlands.

http://www.bbc.co.uk...y/iron_01.shtml


However, the etymology of the name has not much to do with Celts or Kalta:

The term Caledones may derive from the Brythonic elements caled "hard, tough" plus the Celtic 'great' suffix, thus *caledonos "great, hard/tough person", *caledoni "great, hard/tough people". Alternatively, it may be derived from the Brythonic calet-donia, again meaning "hard/tough people". It could also derive from the Goidelic element "coille" "forest", i.e. "people of the forest".

http://en.wikipedia....iki/Caledonians


Physical appearance
Tacitus in his Agricola, chapter XI (c. 98 AD) described the Caledonians as red haired and large limbed, which he considered features of Germanic origin: “The reddish (rutilae) hair and large limbs of the Caledonians proclaim a German origin”.

http://en.wikipedia....iki/Caledonians

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Edited by Abramelin, 31 January 2013 - 03:31 PM.

[Abramelin]

Of course the obvious reason to change Kalta into Kaeltana is that in Dutch the word for Celt is "Kelt" and the Dutch plural for that word is "Kelten".

But from Caledoni to Kaeltana is not a big step either.

+++

EDIT:

And there IS a known Scottish-Frisian connection:

Taexali: a group of very probably Frisian settlers (lived near a bay in Scotland that was once called Frisian Bay); did they come from Texel (old name Texla) after the flood in 360 or 350 BC, a flood mentioned by the Frisian historiographer Schotanus? Same could be true for the aforementioned tribes. Some of their hillforts were called "Laws" (think OLB citadel on Texland; the etymology of Texla is based on a Germanic word for direction, "to the right". But 'right' has also another meaning aside from a direction...)

http://www.unexplain...5


ON THE EARLY FRISIAN SETTLEMENTS IN SCOTLAND,
BY W. F. SKENE, ESQ., F.S.A. SCOT

http://www.unexplain...0


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Edited by Abramelin, 31 January 2013 - 03:51 PM.

[Everdred]

Abramelin, on 31 January 2013 - 12:41 PM, said:

The Romans adopted the name that was most commonly used for that city.

A bit like the city I was born in, 's-Gravenhage, which is most times shortened to Den Haag. And that name has been translated into every other language (The Hague, La Haye, and so on).

Another known example is Jerusalem, which is also known as Zion, and Al-Quds (=Holy City).

They did indeed adopt the most common name, Gadir, as seen from the fact that the base is Gadi- (evident in the genitive Gadium or dative Gadibus), not Kade-.  I would also think it unlikely that the city was referred to as holy.  The Carthaginians worshipped many gods, with Ba'al chief among these.  It's true that Hannibal and his family had a particular fondness for Melqart (explaining his visit to Cadiz, and the later establishment of a temple to Melqart at Cartagena), but I don't think that's a good explanation for the city being commonly called holy.

Quote

Btw,  K, Q, and G are all voiceless consonants:

http://en.wikipedia....i/Voicelessness

And a famous example of a shift from K to G (or CH) is our word chemistry which came from al kimia. I know that in English this CH still sounds like a K, but not in my language where this CH is pronounced like the CH in Loch Ness.

.

I think you misread the wiki article.  Voiced means that your vocal cords vibrate, while voiceless means they don't.  If you make a K and G sound, you'll notice that you move your mouth and tongue in the same way--the only difference is the vibration of your vocal cords.  This is why G becomes K over the span of time (e.g. Gades to Cadiz).  But in this case we're talking about a borrow from one language to another, so there's no explanation for the sound change.

[The Puzzler]

Abramelin, on 31 January 2013 - 03:14 PM, said:

What is kind of interesting us that Kalta suddenly becomes Kaltana:

Sandbach:
From this castle she ruled as a true mother, against their will, not for her followers, but over them, who were thenceforth called Kelts.

OLB:
Fon thjus burch welde** hju lik en efte moder, navt to wille fâr men over hira folgar aend tham hjara selva forth Kaeltana hêton.

Mine:
Van deze burcht heerste zij gelijk een wettige (ehaft) Moeder, niet ter wille van maar over hare volgers, en daarna haarzelve voorts Kaeltana noemde.

Again:
From this burgh she ruled like a lawful Mother, not for the sake of but over her followers, and thereafter called herself Kaeltana.

[** Welde: http://www.etymonlin...rchmode=none  ]

Btw: I'm not sure about the 'herself'. Maybe it's 'themselves'.


Kaltana? Caledonii.


Kalta and her people eventually settled in Scotland. And what people lived there?

Caledones (Caledonii)
This is the name of peoples who lived in the Scottish Highlands and Islands. The Romans used the word Caledones to describe both a single tribe who lived in the Great Glen between the modern towns of Inverness and Fort William. They also called all the tribes living in the north Caledonians. We know the names of some of these other tribes. They include the Cornovii and Smertae who probably lived in Caithness, the Caereni who lived in the far west of the Highlands, the Carnonacae and the Creones in the Western Highlands.

http://www.bbc.co.uk...y/iron_01.shtml


However, the etymology of the name has not much to do with Celts or Kalta:

The term Caledones may derive from the Brythonic elements caled "hard, tough" plus the Celtic 'great' suffix, thus *caledonos "great, hard/tough person", *caledoni "great, hard/tough people". Alternatively, it may be derived from the Brythonic calet-donia, again meaning "hard/tough people". It could also derive from the Goidelic element "coille" "forest", i.e. "people of the forest".

http://en.wikipedia....iki/Caledonians


Physical appearance
Tacitus in his Agricola, chapter XI (c. 98 AD) described the Caledonians as red haired and large limbed, which he considered features of Germanic origin: “The reddish (rutilae) hair and large limbs of the Caledonians proclaim a German origin”.

http://en.wikipedia....iki/Caledonians

.

Interesting. The etymology isn't really known by the sounds of it anyway, just guesses of likely answers.

If they were a Germanic type their language might be Germanic - kaldia is meaning 'cold, cool' in Frisian - Kaldonia could simply mean 'cold country'.
Or bald country - kale meaning baldness - the country had no trees, just lots of moors and rocks? We have a Mt Baldy here, not that unusual a name, the mountain is bare. Kale-donia

kalde has Kalte meaning coldness - but it does appear Kaltas name comes from kaltia meaning speak.

If Caledonians was based on Kalta's name I'd have to stay with 'noisy people' or such, people who shreik out.

Edited by The Puzzler, 01 February 2013 - 01:39 AM.

[Abramelin]

The Puzzler, on 01 February 2013 - 01:31 AM, said:

Interesting. The etymology isn't really known by the sounds of it anyway, just guesses of likely answers.

If they were a Germanic type their language might be Germanic - kaldia is meaning 'cold, cool' in Frisian - Kaldonia could simply mean 'cold country'.
Or bald country - kale meaning baldness - the country had no trees, just lots of moors and rocks? We have a Mt Baldy here, not that unusual a name, the mountain is bare. Kale-donia

kalde has Kalte meaning coldness - but it does appear Kaltas name comes from kaltia meaning speak.

If Caledonians was based on Kalta's name I'd have to stay with 'noisy people' or such, people who shreik out.

That's the name the OLB gave to the people on Crete, because of their "kreten", or yells, screams.

And Kalta got her nickname (she was originally called "Syrhed") because of her slick talk, not because she shrieked out.

[Abramelin]

Everdred, on 01 February 2013 - 01:14 AM, said:

They did indeed adopt the most common name, Gadir, as seen from the fact that the base is Gadi- (evident in the genitive Gadium or dative Gadibus), not Kade-.  I would also think it unlikely that the city was referred to as holy.  The Carthaginians worshipped many gods, with Ba'al chief among these.  It's true that Hannibal and his family had a particular fondness for Melqart (explaining his visit to Cadiz, and the later establishment of a temple to Melqart at Cartagena), but I don't think that's a good explanation for the city being commonly called holy.





I think you misread the wiki article.  Voiced means that your vocal cords vibrate, while voiceless means they don't.  If you make a K and G sound, you'll notice that you move your mouth and tongue in the same way--the only difference is the vibration of your vocal cords.  This is why G becomes K over the span of time (e.g. Gades to Cadiz).  But in this case we're talking about a borrow from one language to another, so there's no explanation for the sound change.

Yes, you are right, I misread the article.

But you keep saying that the base for Gadir is Gadi-  , and it's not.

One of the reasons I think the Phoenicians considered Gadir to be holy (Qadesh.Kadesh) is bercause of those two pillars of Melqart. Apparently those were very important, even sacred symbols they didn't erect just anywhere. They even erected them in front of Solomon's temple, and the Hebrews (and maybe they themselves too) called them Jachin and Boaz.


+++

EDIT:

Btw Everdred, I have tried to find the oldest source for the Roman name "Gades". Was it Pliny?


.

Edited by Abramelin, 01 February 2013 - 08:04 AM.

[Abramelin]

Natural History
Pliny the Elder

Book 4: Countries



Chapter 36: The Islands in the Atlantic Ocean.

Opposite to Celtiberia are a number of islands, by the Greeks called Cassiterides, in consequence of their abounding in tin: and, facing the Promontory of the Arrotrebæ, are the six Islands of the Gods, which some persons have called the Fortunate Islands. At the very commencement of Bætica, and twenty-five miles from the mouth of the Straits of Gades, is the island of Gadis, twelve miles long and three broad, as Polybius states in his writings. At its nearest part, it is less than 700 feet distant from the mainland, while in the remaining portion it is distant more than seven miles. Its circuit is fifteen miles, and it has on it a city which enjoys the rights of Roman citizens, and whose people are called the Augustani of the city of Julia Gaditana. On the side which looks towards Spain, at about 100 paces distance, is another long island, three miles wide, on which the original city of Gades stood. By Ephorus and Philistides it is called Erythia, by Timæus and Silenus Aphrodisias, and by the natives the Isle of Juno. Timæus says, that the larger island used to be called Cotinusa, from its olives; the Romans call it Tartessos; the Carthaginians Gadir, that word in the Punic language signifying a hedge. It was called Erythia because the Tyrians, the original ancestors of the Carthaginians, were said to have come from the Erythræn, or Red Sea. In this island Geryon is by some thought to have dwelt, whose herds were carried off by Hercules. Other persons again think, that his island is another one, opposite to Lusitania, and that it was there formerly called by that name.

http://www.maryjones...ical_pliny.html


OK, on my way to Polybius.

[Abramelin]

You'd think that for desert dwellers a fresh water spring would be considered special or 'holy'...


Polybius
The Histories

I. Some General Remarks. The Subject of this Book.

(From Strabo VII.1.1, C 332)


5 Polybius says there is a spring in the temple of Hercules at Gades, a few steps leading down to the water, which is drinkable.

http://penelope.uchi...lybius/34*.html


Kadesh is alternatively called En-Mishpat ("spring of judgment"; Gen. 14:7) and the "waters of Meribah" ("strife," Num. 20:13, 24; 27:14; Deut. 32:51), names which indicate its special role as a sacred place of judgment and assembly for the desert tribes.

http://www.jewishvir...11_0_10530.html


Tell Kedesh is located above the Kedesh valley It is composed of an an ancient mound (with North and South hills) and a lower east hill,  with a spring in the center.

   The ancient Biblical mound (which was inhabited until the Hellenistic period) is quite large - 900 m from north to side, with a total size of 20-25 acres. The North side of the ancient mound is at 485m above sea level, almost 100m higher than the plateau of the Kedesh valley around the site (395m). The mound is protected by high steep walls, which was an artificial glacis wall that protected the city.

http://www.biblewalk...tes/Kedesh.html



The site of Kadesh was discovered in 1842 by John Rowland, and has since been visited and described by Trumbull. It lies midway between Al-'Arish and Mount Hor in a great treeless limestone plateau. The spring of clear water, which rises at the foot of a limestone cliff, is still called "'Ain-Ḳadis"= "spring of Kadesh."

http://www.jewishenc...les/9112-kadesh

[The Puzzler]

Abramelin, on 01 February 2013 - 07:51 AM, said:

That's the name the OLB gave to the people on Crete, because of their "kreten", or yells, screams.

And Kalta got her nickname (she was originally called "Syrhed") because of her slick talk, not because she shrieked out.

OK, her nimble tongue and advice she conveyed in mysterious terms. Not nec. shreiking or slick talk but because she spoke fast (nimble tongue) in mysterious terms - possibly like oracles gave.
Her face was beautiful, and her tongue was nimble; but the advice that she gave was always conveyed in mysterious terms.

kaltia = speak

The name of Crete is not related to Kalta's name. Crete would be kreta/kreten = cry - not shreik or speak or talk
When I came away from Athenia with my followers, we arrived at an island named by my crew Kreta, because of the cries that the inhabitants raised on our arrival.
So, I do not think Caledonians is related to Crete naming, but as I said, to Kalta's name is a possiblity but only possible if caledonia's etymology is also from kaltia/speak (because we know that is the etym. of Kalta's name).


Most languages, in common with English, use the general word for "cry out, shout, wail" to also mean "weep, shed tears to express pain or grief."
http://www.etymonlin...ex.php?term=cry

Frankish *krītan (“to cry, cry out, publish”), from Proto-Germanic *krītanan (“to cry out, shout”),
http://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/cry

From Proto-Germanic - a language that should also be behind the OLB language.

Edited by The Puzzler, 01 February 2013 - 12:23 PM.

[NO-ID-EA]

i think cal at the beginning of a word often means call , as in pray to ..........and at first there were people who still prayed to Lucifer the light bringer , until he was vilified..

(e-vilified )  so some names like chalcedon.....could mean they called (prayed to )cedon , which could be satan ,seiton or aton or Atan, and cal-adon-i-am could be a


form of this

have often wondered if name endings is their stating who the are ....us , ones(Saxones) , iam(ian) , tes (these)

[The Puzzler]

Abramelin, on 01 February 2013 - 07:57 AM, said:

Yes, you are right, I misread the article.

But you keep saying that the base for Gadir is Gadi-  , and it's not.

One of the reasons I think the Phoenicians considered Gadir to be holy (Qadesh.Kadesh) is bercause of those two pillars of Melqart. Apparently those were very important, even sacred symbols they didn't erect just anywhere. They even erected them in front of Solomon's temple, and the Hebrews (and maybe they themselves too) called them Jachin and Boaz.


+++

EDIT:

Btw Everdred, I have tried to find the oldest source for the Roman name "Gades". Was it Pliny?


.

Interesting.

For a relation to Kadesh, the base would be QDS - which although not in Punic Gadir, is in GADES. QDS/GDS - the word is awfully close to looking like 'Gods' too imo. Punic dialect could easily have had changes in tongue, because of their circumstances in communicating with many various peoples during trade.

A walled stronghold, a kadik, stone quay - may actually HAVE been the sanctuary/holy place(QDS) for their GOD.

I think it makes sense. All you ever hear of Cadiz is Heracles Pillars, Pillars, Melqart, Heracles, Pillars, Atlantis - something special was going on there - I reckon the idea has merit Abe.

http://en.wikipedia....org/wiki/Q-D-Ĺ 

Edited by The Puzzler, 01 February 2013 - 01:17 PM.

[The Puzzler]

NO-ID-EA, on 01 February 2013 - 12:53 PM, said:

i think cal at the beginning of a word often means call , as in pray to ..........and at first there were people who still prayed to Lucifer the light bringer , until he was vilified..

(e-vilified )  so some names like chalcedon.....could mean they called (prayed to )cedon , which could be satan ,seiton or aton or Atan, and cal-adon-i-am could be a


form of this

have often wondered if name endings is their stating who the are ....us , ones(Saxones) , iam(ian) , tes (these)

Which is why I also gave Kalta's name as could mean shriek, but call is certainly the root for her name. In Dutch kallen is to talk but in English these words would indicate calling out, shouting, scream, shriek - hence my above interpretation.

call (v.) Old English ceallian "to call, shout," less common than clipian; replaced by related Old Norse kalla "to cry loudly," from Proto-Germanic *kallojanan (cf. Dutch kallen "to talk," Old High German kallon "to call"), from PIE root *gal- "to call, scream, shriek, shout" (cf. Sanskrit garhati "bewail, criticize;" Latin gallus "c ock;" Old High German klaga, German Klage "complaint, grievance, lament, accusation;" Old English clacu "affront;" Old Church Slavonic glasu "voice," glagolu "word;" Welsh galw "call"). Related: Called; calling.
http://www.etymonlin...x.php?term=call

Latin Gallus = c ock - related to Kaltas name also - Gauls - callers, shouters or maybe in Dutch - talkers

Edited by The Puzzler, 01 February 2013 - 01:31 PM.

[Abramelin]

The Puzzler, on 01 February 2013 - 12:22 PM, said:

OK, her nimble tongue and advice she conveyed in mysterious terms. Not nec. shreiking or slick talk but because she spoke fast (nimble tongue) in mysterious terms - possibly like oracles gave.
Her face was beautiful, and her tongue was nimble; but the advice that she gave was always conveyed in mysterious terms.

kaltia = speak

The name of Crete is not related to Kalta's name. Crete would be kreta/kreten = cry - not shreik or speak or talk
When I came away from Athenia with my followers, we arrived at an island named by my crew Kreta, because of the cries that the inhabitants raised on our arrival.
So, I do not think Caledonians is related to Crete naming, but as I said, to Kalta's name is a possiblity but only possible if caledonia's etymology is also from kaltia/speak (because we know that is the etym. of Kalta's name).


Most languages, in common with English, use the general word for "cry out, shout, wail" to also mean "weep, shed tears to express pain or grief."
http://www.etymonlin...ex.php?term=cry

Frankish *krītan (“to cry, cry out, publish”), from Proto-Germanic *krītanan (“to cry out, shout”),
http://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/cry

From Proto-Germanic - a language that should also be behind the OLB language.

I know Kalta and Crete have nothing to do with eachother, etymologically speaking, but I mentioned the OLB explanation of the name, and that it is based on yells, screams, "kreten" , because that rules out "Kalta" having anything to do with shrieking, yelling, or whatever.

And if there is any word that might explain that "her tongue was nimble; but the advice that she gave was always conveyed in mysterious terms.", then it is the Norse "skald", or poet, bard:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Skald

Much later this word was associated with abusive language and 'calling names'.

We should not forget that Kalta was the nickname she got because of her way of talking and her way of giving advice: nimble and mysterious.



.

Edited by Abramelin, 01 February 2013 - 02:00 PM.

[Abramelin]

The Puzzler, on 01 February 2013 - 01:14 PM, said:

Interesting.

For a relation to Kadesh, the base would be QDS - which although not in Punic Gadir, is in GADES. QDS/GDS - the word is awfully close to looking like 'Gods' too imo. Punic dialect could easily have had changes in tongue, because of their circumstances in communicating with many various peoples during trade.

A walled stronghold, a kadik, stone quay - may actually HAVE been the sanctuary/holy place(QDS) for their GOD.

I think it makes sense. All you ever hear of Cadiz is Heracles Pillars, Pillars, Melqart, Heracles, Pillars, Atlantis - something special was going on there - I reckon the idea has merit Abe.

http://en.wikipedia....org/wiki/Q-D-Ĺ

Close to "Gods'", but that is a modern, English plural. Even today the Germans say "Götter" and the Norse say "Guder".


"A walled stronghold, a kadik, stone quay - may actually HAVE been the sanctuary/holy place(QDS) for their GOD."

The OLB "KADIK" doesn't appear to be 'holy', but because of that temple (who knows, maybe also because of the spring inside the temple) and/or its pillars it was for the Phoenicians/Carthagenians.