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Doggerland


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#691    JohnD

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Posted 15 July 2011 - 09:01 PM

View PostAbramelin, on 11 July 2011 - 01:25 PM, said:

About boats and such: they now know Doggerland was a land of many lakes, rivers and marshes, and I think it wouldn't be a big surprize if the people living there also built boats or canoes for fishing and maybe even for hunting seals and whales. The oldest known dug-out canoe is like a 9000 years old, and found in Pesse in the province of Drenthe, the Netherlands.

Given that the technology probably existed, and given the probably conditions in Doggerland that you mention, I think even if the item in the illustration isn't actually a paddle, they more likely than not had some form of water transport, certainly sufficient to navigate around the coastal regions of Doggerland and what became the North Sea. And those spear-points in the picture - I don't pretend to be an expert, but those rows of barbs/serrations make me think of fish-spears or harpoons (and given that Star Carr was on the shores of a lake, that's probably what they were, although obviously they were hunting deer and other biggish game too).

I like your Greek theory - it may be a bit speculative, but it's the good kind of speculative. No aliens or Atlanteans in sight :D To me, it doesn't seem all that implausible. As you say, when Europe was still sparsely inhabited and largely covered with forest, travel via rivers was probably if anything easier than travel overland - it doesn't seem implausible that trade networks existed between the North Sea/Baltic and the Black Sea, especially when you consider that it wouldn't necessarily be a case of individuals having to travel the whole distance personally; trade could very likely have occurred via various middlemen. I'm a firm believer that goods and information in prehistoric, ancient and medieval times could and did travel much further and more routinely than most people probably suspect, even if the vast majority of individuals didn't travel so far. I'm thinking of things like medieval Islamic pottery and coins turning up in Canada (true, apparently!). It wasn't a case of Arabs visiting the New World, but rather Arabs trading with Vikings in Russia, Vikings in Russia trading with Scandinavia, Scandinavia trading with Iceland, Iceland trading with Greenland, Greenlanders making at least occasional visits to North America and having some limited contact with the Native Americans. I'm sure similar networks existed in earlier times too (we know there was limited contact between Rome and China), maybe in prehistoric times. Maybe not between Europe and the Americas (although you never know given when you were saying above about the "swarthy" Formorians...), but between Northern and Southern Europe doesn't seem like a stretch to me at all - in fact, it seems very likely to me.


#692    Abramelin

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Posted 16 July 2011 - 12:58 PM

Yep John, I have tried to stay within the bounderies of the reasonable and acceptable throughout this thread, though I have to admit that occassionally fantasy got the better of me, lol, and as SlimJim already said many pages ago, the material in this thread could be used to write a tome of fictional pre-history (which several writers already did / I posted excerpts of their books too).

Yesterday I wanted to look up something about the Fomorians.... An alternative spelling is Formorians, with an extra -r-. I tried For Morians... made a spelling error, and wrote "Fir Moroians". Google showed me a page that mentioned the "Fir Morocchi", lol:

"One of the most startling accounts tells us that the Mediterranean gods were born upon islands in a coastal salt-water marsh upon the coast of Morocco. The map from Abraham Ortelius shown above actually depicts this place of origin before it was washed away by giant tsunami generated by earthquakes. Herein lies a fantastic tale of detection surrounding Mercator and Ortelius, and other early map-makers. Also learn of the Fir-Morocchi of Ireland, the sea-faring Veneti of megalithic Carnac in Brittany, and the Phoenician strongholds in ancient Cadiz and Morocco."

http://www.originofculture.com/

It's yet another book about Atlantis, but the only interesting thing is the way the writer changed the name of the Fomorians into Fir Morocchi.

As you see, the writer also talks about Carnac, Brittany in France.


"Carnac is home to some of the earliest megaliths in Europe. It shows several distinct phases of construction, denoted by the occasional re-use of existing monuments. The following is a basic breakdown of the main prehistoric construction phases at Carnac.

Charcoal from the St. Michel Tumulus (see below) has been radio-carbon dated to 6,850 BC (4).

The first major construction phase at Carnac is at c. 4,500 BC as the following examples illustrate:

The Kercado passage mound, south-east of the Kermario alignment produced radio-Carbon dates of 4,700 BC. The mound is surrounded by a circle of stones and has a menhir on its peak. The entrance of the chamber faces 32° south of east, almost exactly towards midwinter sunrise. (3)

The only relatively clear date for the alignments is provided by the Manio Tumular bank, an early monument (5th millennium B.C.) covered by the ends of the Kermario alignments, which must therefore be considered more recent. (5)

Le Grand Menhir alignment (and other parts of Lochmariaquer site), have been dated at c. 4,500 BC (6)

The second major construction phase is at c.3,300 BC as the following examples illustrate:

Parts of Le Grand Menhir alignment are re-used as capstones for La Table des Marchands (over an existing stone), Er-Grah, and the Gavr'inis passage mounds.

The alignments at Carnac are believed to have been built at this time. Burl indicates a date of around 3,300 BC with an error of several hundred years (7)"


http://www.ancient-w...rancecarnac.htm

It would be interesting to find out (DNA extracted from skeletons) if the ancient people living in what is now the Carnac area were in contact with those who lived in Doggerland.

I have mentioned several writers in this thread who suggested that Doggerland may have been some sort of origin of the megalithic culture in western Europe, but one of my arguments against that was that the megalithic culture in western Europe started several thousands of years after Doggerland sank beneath the waves (Dogger Island is said to have stayed above sea level until around 5000 BC).

These finds in/near Carnac could, however, support their view.

What I also find interesting is that Carnac is a place where one would go to to be safe of any future floods coming from the far north (Storegga Slides); check a map, and you will see that 'anything' coming from the north would not be able to directly hit the Carnac area: Brittany is between Carnac and the Channel/North Sea.

The next map is based on a still I made from an interactive map. It is supposed to show Doggerland/-island around 5750 BC (the red line is a possible sea route from Doggerland to Carnac):

Posted Image

.

Edited by Abramelin, 16 July 2011 - 01:52 PM.


#693    Abramelin

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Posted 16 July 2011 - 06:40 PM

At present the Strait of Dover (or "Nauw van Calais" as it is called in Dutch) is  34 km/21 miles wide.

But it opened up many, many millennia ago:

" (...) a new study by Gupta et al. (2007)[3][4] suggests that the English Channel was formed by erosion caused by two major floods. The first was about 425 000 years ago, when an ice-dammed lake in the southern North Sea overflowed and broke the Weald-Artois chalk range in a catastrophic erosion and flood event. Afterwards, the Thames and Scheldt flowed through the gap into the English Channel, but the Meuse and Rhine still flowed northwards. In a second flood about 225 000 years ago the Meuse and Rhine were ice-dammed into a lake that broke catastrophically through a high weak barrier (perhaps chalk, or an end-moraine left by the ice sheet). Both floods cut massive flood channels in the dry bed of the English Channel, somewhat like the Channeled Scablands or the Wabash river in the USA"

http://en.wikipedia....Strait_of_Dover


But how wide would it have been around 8000 years ago? The chalk cliffs on both sides of the strait are - and most probably have been for ages -  erroding quite fast.

The next is an impression (originally it had not anything to do with this strait) how it could have looked 8000 years ago:

Posted Image

Now forget about those giant statues, and envision how narrow that strait must have been, many thousands of years ago.

Imagine people sailing to the north, through the newly formed Channel, passing huge white cliffs on either side of the strait, entering an area cloaked in fog, an area with shoals, sandbanks, islands, rivers, and whatnot.

"Fog" you will ask? Yes, because at 8000 bp the northern branch of the Gulf Stream entering the newly formed North Sea would have been cold(er) because of the melting glaciers in Scotland and Norway. The southern branch of the Gulf Stream would have been warmer than the northern branch. They met where (the) Dogger Island(s) was (were) located. And whenever cold and warm sea currents meet, you will have fog.

I have talked about this foggy archipelago much earlier in this thread ("Hell/Niflheim").

If my interpretations of the meteorological conditions are anything right, this place, and its entrance, must have been quite scary to those ancient people.

I wish I had been a writer, lol.


.

Edited by Abramelin, 16 July 2011 - 07:04 PM.


#694    Abramelin

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Posted 17 July 2011 - 11:21 PM

View PostAbramelin, on 16 July 2011 - 06:40 PM, said:

I wish I had been a writer, lol.


.


Yeah, and then I could earn something.

But now someone else is earning that money.. for me.

Check out this magazine:

http://drakenberg.we...ee-network.html

DRAGONTREE NETWORK

Issue 1: No. 1, May 2011 - "Mythemes & Dragons"

Table of Contents

1. What Does It Mean to Shine: Feeding the Energy Body
2. Dragon Watchtowers
3. When Comets Were Dragons: From Tiamat to Tunguska
4. Did Comets Inspire the Labyrinth?
5. Book Review: Embodying Osiris
6. The Dragons of Serbia:: Faeries, Dragons & Witches Blood


And these images I posted in this thread:

Posted Image

Look at the image and the subtitle: I am a 200% sure not anyone before me connected this specific petroglyph with a comet and Doggerland:

Posted Image
Is this petroglyph a depictionof the Doggerland Comet?

:angry:



+++++++++++


EDIT:

My post 461, page 31; a year older than the article....

http://www.unexplain...9


.

Edited by Abramelin, 17 July 2011 - 11:28 PM.


#695    Abramelin

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Posted 18 July 2011 - 09:28 PM

View PostAbramelin, on 16 July 2011 - 06:40 PM, said:

At present the Strait of Dover (or "Nauw van Calais" as it is called in Dutch) is  34 km/21 miles wide.

But it opened up many, many millennia ago:

" (...) a new study by Gupta et al. (2007)[3][4] suggests that the English Channel was formed by erosion caused by two major floods. The first was about 425 000 years ago, when an ice-dammed lake in the southern North Sea overflowed and broke the Weald-Artois chalk range in a catastrophic erosion and flood event. Afterwards, the Thames and Scheldt flowed through the gap into the English Channel, but the Meuse and Rhine still flowed northwards. In a second flood about 225 000 years ago the Meuse and Rhine were ice-dammed into a lake that broke catastrophically through a high weak barrier (perhaps chalk, or an end-moraine left by the ice sheet). Both floods cut massive flood channels in the dry bed of the English Channel, somewhat like the Channeled Scablands or the Wabash river in the USA"

http://en.wikipedia....Strait_of_Dover


But how wide would it have been around 8000 years ago? The chalk cliffs on both sides of the strait are - and most probably have been for ages -  erroding quite fast.

The next is an impression (originally it had not anything to do with this strait) how it could have looked 8000 years ago:

Posted Image

Now forget about those giant statues, and envision how narrow that strait must have been, many thousands of years ago.

Imagine people sailing to the north, through the newly formed Channel, passing huge white cliffs on either side of the strait, entering an area cloaked in fog, an area with shoals, sandbanks, islands, rivers, and whatnot.

"Fog" you will ask? Yes, because at 8000 bp the northern branch of the Gulf Stream entering the newly formed North Sea would have been cold(er) because of the melting glaciers in Scotland and Norway. The southern branch of the Gulf Stream would have been warmer than the northern branch. They met where (the) Dogger Island(s) was (were) located. And whenever cold and warm sea currents meet, you will have fog.

I have talked about this foggy archipelago much earlier in this thread ("Hell/Niflheim").

If my interpretations of the meteorological conditions are anything right, this place, and its entrance, must have been quite scary to those ancient people.

I wish I had been a writer, lol.


.


The Dover Strait is still widening by about one foot a year.

http://www.beforeus.com/drowned.html


But the narrower a strait, the faster the curent running through it, and the faster the erosion caused by that same current will take place.

So when the North Sea came (again) in contact with the Channel, erosion may have occurred in many meters per year.



The Strait of Dover must have been the famous 'Pillars of Hercules' (Iman Wilkins)

http://www.historykb...ding-to-Wilkens


My impression of that strait at around 6000 BC :

Posted Image

Now add some dark, clouded, threatening, or foggy skies, and you will get what I am on about.

Imagine: you pass two large cliffs/'pillars' on either side of a narrow strait with your ship, and you see shoals, islands, thick fog, ruins (?), drowned forrests or stumps of trees, a faul smell like you are in hell, and all that preferrably during sunset or dusk.

Is there anyone reading all this who knows how to use Photoshop?

I don't have Photoshop, but I sure do know what kind of image I would like to create.


#696    Abramelin

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Posted 21 July 2011 - 09:32 PM

* Nehalennia and Hades were both depicted with a dog at their sides.

* "Hell" was the old name for the present North Sea.

* This 'Hell was once something of a paradise

* Then it got flooded.

* The survivors of that catastrophic flood/tsunami were already in contact - sailing up the Rhine and Elbe, trading amber, seal skins, timber, tin, pemmikan, gold, whatever, to the people living around the Danube, the Balkan, and most probably with the ancestors of the Greeks. Think Homer..

Imagine this:

Some guy saw his country submerge catastrophically, his whole family drowned, everybody he was acquainted with was gone, and the whole area he grew up in was gone too.

This same guy travels up the Rhine/Elbe towards the Danube, hops on a boat, and travels to the Balkans. There he meets his clients, the people who had always bought his merchandise. He tells them this unbelievable story, that the country he and his family had lived in for many generations got flooded, and was no more. He was convinced the gods had punished his people for something wrong.

He or she would not have been the only ones; hundreds of these survivors would have shared their stories with the people they traded with.

Then, centuries later, some guy called "Honer" heard these stories, told at the camp fire.


#697    JohnD

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Posted 22 July 2011 - 10:42 PM

View PostAbramelin, on 17 July 2011 - 11:21 PM, said:


Look at the image and the subtitle: I am a 200% sure not anyone before me connected this specific petroglyph with a comet and Doggerland:

Posted Image
Is this petroglyph a depictionof the Doggerland Comet?

This is the image that you were talking about not being able to find, up-thread...? That's amazing to me - no exaggeration. I don't know about comets, but I can see Great Britain on the left there and continental Europe on the right an something very much like Dogger Island in the centre. If I were the excitable type I'd be saying something like "that proves memories of Doggerland extended into later eras!" or something. Do you know the approximate age of this carving?

Regarding the idea of surviving Doggerlanders telling tales to proto-Greeks or their ancestors, well, in line with my comments above, I'd consider that sort of thing to be one of the less speculative ideas on this thread. People move about, and people tell stories. I'd probably go as far as to say more likely than not, actually.


#698    Abramelin

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Posted 23 July 2011 - 09:06 PM

View Postjollymark, on 23 July 2011 - 05:10 AM, said:

Doggerland is a name given by archaeologists and geologists to the former landmass in the southern North Sea that connected the island of Great Britain to mainland Europe during and after the last Ice Age.Doggerland is a "lost land" that existed in the present-day North Sea, between England, the Netherlands, and Denmark. Doggerland existed towards the end of the last Ice Age, about 11,000 years ago, when glacial ice in northern Europe had melted but sea levels were still low enough that the area was not flooded as it is today. Sea levels were about 120 m (394 ft) below current levels. Other areas around the world that were made dry by these sea levels include seas around Indonesia and the Bering Strait, which was crossed by hunter-gatherers into the Americas.Doggerland is a name given by archaeologists and geologists to a former landmass in the southern North Sea that connected the island of Great Britain to mainland Europe during and after the last Ice Age. Geological surveys have suggested that Doggerland was a large area of dry land that stretched from Britain's east coast across to the present coast of the Netherlands and the western coasts of Germany and Denmark.

What are you telling us?

You didn't take the trouble to read this thread at all.

Great.

Btw, it weren't geologists who first named this submerged area "Doggerland", it was a Dutch guy called "Overwijn" (a historian of some sorts) who did, in 1941.

If you had read this thread, you'd know.


#699    JohnD

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Posted 23 July 2011 - 10:56 PM

View Postjollymark, on 23 July 2011 - 05:10 AM, said:


Er...okay...?!


#700    Abramelin

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Posted 24 July 2011 - 06:07 PM

View PostAbramelin, on 23 July 2011 - 09:06 PM, said:

What are you telling us?

You didn't take the trouble to read this thread at all.

Great.

Btw, it weren't geologists who first named this submerged area "Doggerland", it was a Dutch guy called "Overwijn" (a historian of some sorts) who did, in 1941.

If you had read this thread, you'd know.


613 Overwijn. J.F., - De strekking van het O.L.B. Onze voorvaderen: de West-Friezen van Doggerland
(Verslag van twee lezingen voor het genootschap 'Yggdrasil'). - Het Vaderland 1941, 25 Maart en 10
Apr


http://www.oeralinda...almaOLBbibl.pdf


#701    Bloemen

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Posted 25 July 2011 - 07:25 PM

Hi Abramelin

Maybe you already know this but found a website with Dutch Folklore stories
http://www.verhalenbank.nl

One story is interesting.
Het dodenappèl - a story about a man and his daughter taking the dead in a ship through the fog too the white island.

Also an other version of this story on this website (also in Dutch)
http://82.168.69.203...tte Eiland.html
In the 6th century Procopius mentioned this ritual (in his book about the Gothic Wars). The souls were taken to Britia from (probably) Domburg a center of the Nehalennia-cult.


#702    Abramelin

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Posted 25 July 2011 - 07:37 PM

View PostBloemen, on 25 July 2011 - 07:25 PM, said:

Hi Abramelin

Maybe you already know this but found a website with Dutch Folklore stories
http://www.verhalenbank.nl

One story is interesting.
Het dodenappèl - a story about a man and his daughter taking the dead in a ship through the fog too the white island.

Also an other version of this story on this website (also in Dutch)
http://82.168.69.203...tte Eiland.html
In the 6th century Procopius mentioned this ritual (in his book about the Gothic Wars). The souls were taken to Britia from (probably) Domburg a center of the Nehalennia-cult.

Yes, I did read it. But I never posted it because I didn't want to go through all that translating again, lol.

There is another, and even more ancient tradition about "Nerthus" as recorded by Tacitus, almost 2000 years ago. I posted about it in this thread.

And there are lots of ancient traditions (England for instance) from around the North Sea of people ferrying their dead relatives/leaders/heroes to an "Island of the Dead" (I also posted about it here).

Well, maybe I will give it a try, and post a translation. Thanks for posting, Bloemen (are you related to Karin?? lol).


#703    Bloemen

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Posted 25 July 2011 - 07:55 PM

No not related :lol:

Found this topic so interesting.
I have a lot of family members who where fishermen (I live in a coastal town where until the 1970 almost half of the population was a fisherman).
They have told me that they regularly found strange objects, bones etc when fishing in the North Sea.
But .... the threw those objects overboard. (in Dutch they said: Wat mot je met die ouwe zooi)
They also mentioned Kalla's tower. I will ask them for more info on what they found when I see them again.


#704    Abramelin

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Posted 25 July 2011 - 09:17 PM

View PostBloemen, on 25 July 2011 - 07:55 PM, said:

No not related :lol:

Found this topic so interesting.
I have a lot of family members who where fishermen (I live in a coastal town where until the 1970 almost half of the population was a fisherman).
They have told me that they regularly found strange objects, bones etc when fishing in the North Sea.
But .... the threw those objects overboard. (in Dutch they said: Wat mot je met die ouwe zooi)
They also mentioned Kalla's tower. I will ask them for more info on what they found when I see them again.

Scheveningen? Katwijk?

Yeah, "Who needs this old rubbsish anyway. Fk'm, throw it overboard".

But I'd love to hear their stories about Kalla's Tower.


#705    Abramelin

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Posted 26 July 2011 - 03:02 PM

Bloemen, before I post that translation (I haven't evens started with it yet), I'd first like to show you how *I* found the story about that "White Island of the Dead".

Although I have done a lot of research for the Oera Linda Book thread, this I found when I was looking for stuff for this thread; it were a couple of images from a pdf, a pdf that was a photo copy of a book written (in German) by a Dutch guy ("Wagenaar" or "Wegener", from Rotterdam as far as I can remember) and it was about that Oera Linda Book.

I hope you will see the "White Aland" or "White Island" in the second image:


Posted Image

Posted Image


+++++++++++


EDIT:

Found it (this is not the pdf, btw): the book/article was written by a "Vroege" (there was indeed a "Wegener" who had written about the Oera linda Book, but he's not the guy I meant:

LOS, F.J.: Die Ura Linda Handschriften als Geschichtsquelle. W.J.Pieters/P.Wegener,(1972). 144p.,Karte. Pappband.
http://boekwinkeltje...hp?id=108829682 ).



Here it is (in German):

http://unglaublichke...eVroegeHel.html

And here what Google Translator squeezed out of it (lol) :

http://translate.goo...eVroegeHel.html

.

Edited by Abramelin, 26 July 2011 - 03:29 PM.





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