25 replies to this topic

[me-wonders]

Mr Walker, on 25 December 2012 - 11:17 AM, said:

I agree i do not think the situation in the middle east has anything to do with god or religious support by god.

But then the usa does not support israel because it is jewish but because it is the closest thing to an american style democracy in the middle east. Politically it is the only really understandable state, in western terms, in the area. Western intelligence analysts can comprehend its motivations etc., and the dynamics of its governance.

Also israel is, in western historical terms, the underdog and good guy in the middle east wars and conflicts of the last 60 years. Finally, Israel has overwhelming political support among constituents in the usa, while arab states generate little sympathy or support.

  Only modern revisionist arab propaganda paints a story of oppression by Israel. And of course modern israel doesnt help itself at times, But some arab states are still officially at war with israel; others have an official policy to destroy the state and people of israel. After ww2 America is not going to allow that to happen. And after the historical experience of the nazi genocide of jews  their ghettoisation and pogroms, in ww2, neither will jewish people or the jewish state, ever let their survival be threatened by outside forces.
Unfortunately,  it now appears that the arab spring will turn into a winter of discontent, as militant islamists take control in countries whose people fought for their freedom from tyranical leaders. If that happens then the relationship, i ncluding a military relationship, between america and israel will become stronger, more important and  influential, in the middle east.

I would like to believe you, but the USA tries to control politics in the mid east with the CIA and putting its pick of people in the leadership roles.  These leaders are not democratic.  Sadam was one of them, and US government's relationship with Saudi Arabia is strong.  

No way is Israel the good guy.  I wish other presidents would be as strong as Eisenhower was in withdrawing support from Israel.   The Arab problem is an image one, and Turkey has been working hard to improve the image of Arabs in Turkey, because it wants Arab oil.   I think we need to be better informed and should not rely on the media for information.

The opening up of our oil fields makes Arab countries less important to the US..  I am not sure how long this will last, but I expect our economy to improve and our interest in the mid east to decline.  You know that debt we owe China?  It looks like we will use oil to decrease that problem.  http://money.cnn.com/2012/05/29/investing/china-oil-energy/index.htm   Sorry, this is so off topic, but I can't control myself.   It is not good for Israel or Arabs that the US be less dependent on Arab oil, and it is not good for Israel that Turkey is getting friendlier with the Arabs.  Like if the US is less interested in Arab oil, that makes Israel less important to the US.

Edited by me-wonders, 29 December 2012 - 05:23 AM.

[me-wonders]

I am feeling bad about taking things off topic, so here is another piece of Ezekiel.

Quote

http://www.satansrap...m/ezekwheel.htm


Ezekiel chapter One
1Now it came about in the thirtieth
year, on the fifth day of the fourth
month, while I was by the river Chebar
among the exiles, the heavens were
opened and I saw visions of God.
2 On the fifth of the month in the
fifth year of King Jehoiachin's exile,
3 the word of the LORD came expressly
to Ezekiel the priest, son of Buzi,
in the land of the Chaldeans by the
river Chebar; and there the hand of
the LORD came upon him.)
As I looked, behold, a whirl-
wind was coming from the north,
a great cloud with fire flashing
forth continually and a bright
light around it, and in its midst
something like glowing metal in
the midst of the fire.
5 Within it there were figures
resembling (J)four living beings
And this was their appearance:
they had human (K)form.
13 In the midst of the living
beings there was something that
looked like burning coals of
fire, like torches darting back
and forth among the living beings.
The fire was bright, and lightning
was flashing from the fire.
15 Now as I looked at the
living beings, behold, there was
one wheel on the earth beside the
living beings, for each of the four
16 The appearance of the
wheels and their workmanship was
like sparkling beryl, and all four
of them had the same form, their
appearance and workmanship being as
if one wheel were within another wheel
25 And there came a voice from
above the expanse that was over
their heads; whenever they stood still,
they dropped their wings.
26 Now above the expanse that
was over their heads there was
something resembling a throne,
like lapis lazuli in appearance;
and on that which resembled a
throne, high up, was a figure with
the appearance of a man.
27 Then I noticed from the
appearance of His loins and upward
something like glowing metal that
looked like fire all around within
it, and from the appearance of His
loins and downward I saw something
like fire; and there was a radiance
around Him.
28 As the appearance of the
rainbow in the clouds on a rainy day,
so was the appearance of the
surrounding radiance such was the
appearance of the likeness of the
glory of the LORD And when I saw it,
I fell on my face and heard
a voice speaking.

Edited by me-wonders, 29 December 2012 - 05:37 AM.

[SpiritWriter]

Isrealis are people of God and all people are people of God... the bible describes these people as the chosen as well as the disobedient as well as the scorned as well as the redeemed as well as being raised up from stones (gentiles). When dealing with scriptural text we see this culture.. I do not think God excludes Isrealis from the heritage as one poster claims stating... but rather isrealite heritage is rich and steeped with the promises of god. God is not the god of one nation... and the text above, although it is derived from Israeli heritage does describe the joining of all people...


Matt 3:9
And do not think you can say to yourselves, ‘We have Abraham as our father.’ I tell you that out of these stones God can raise up children for Abraham. 

[Mr Walker]

me-wonders, on 29 December 2012 - 05:01 AM, said:

I would like to believe you, but the USA tries to control politics in the mid east with the CIA and putting its pick of people in the leadership roles.  These leaders are not democratic.  Sadam was one of them, and US government's relationship with Saudi Arabia is strong.  

No way is Israel the good guy.  I wish other presidents would be as strong as Eisenhower was in withdrawing support from Israel.   The Arab problem is an image one, and Turkey has been working hard to improve the image of Arabs in Turkey, because it wants Arab oil.   I think we need to be better informed and should not rely on the media for information.

The opening up of our oil fields makes Arab countries less important to the US..  I am not sure how long this will last, but I expect our economy to improve and our interest in the mid east to decline.  You know that debt we owe China?  It looks like we will use oil to decrease that problem.  http://money.cnn.com/2012/05/29/investing/china-oil-energy/index.htm   Sorry, this is so off topic, but I can't control myself.   It is not good for Israel or Arabs that the US be less dependent on Arab oil, and it is not good for Israel that Turkey is getting friendlier with the Arabs.  Like if the US is less interested in Arab oil, that makes Israel less important to the US.

There is so much historically that i disagree with in here, that i wil not argue with you. You are entitled to your own world view. I disagree with you about Us oil independence. I do not subscribe to the conspiracy theorists on US policy being driven by access to oil, but nonetheless, an indendent oil supply will assure a more neutral and disinterested US policy all around the world My one fear is that, without a need to take note of world events,  the usa might slip back into the isolationist policies of the first half of the 20th century.  Israels importance to the US has almost nothing to do with oil

I do agree with you about the US supporting dictatorships. Almost certainly their policy analysts have worked out that with a fall in such leaders there will be a rise in islamic states. Nonetheless, it is never good policy for a democracy to support a dictatorship. As islamist govts rise around the middle east, including especially in Egypt, Israel will become an increasingly important  strategic, military and political ally of the US.

[me-wonders]

Mr Walker, on 29 December 2012 - 09:00 AM, said:

There is so much historically that i disagree with in here, that i wil not argue with you. You are entitled to your own world view. I disagree with you about Us oil independence. I do not subscribe to the conspiracy theorists on US policy being driven by access to oil, but nonetheless, an indendent oil supply will assure a more neutral and disinterested US policy all around the world My one fear is that, without a need to take note of world events,  the usa might slip back into the isolationist policies of the first half of the 20th century.  Israels importance to the US has almost nothing to do with oil

I do agree with you about the US supporting dictatorships. Almost certainly their policy analysts have worked out that with a fall in such leaders there will be a rise in islamic states. Nonetheless, it is never good policy for a democracy to support a dictatorship. As islamist govts rise around the middle east, including especially in Egypt, Israel will become an increasingly important  strategic, military and political ally of the US.

Well, I am not too comfortable with you saying "There is so much historically that i disagree with in here, that i wil not argue with you". How can I argue your points of argument if you do not state them?   Strategically, Israel is very important.  This is about more than oil but oil is so important to industrial countries, we can say, he who controls oil controls that world.  Our interest in Israel seems to have gotten serious as a result of competition with the USSR.  I think we need to be clear, this is competition for world resources and markets.  The USA got involved to be sure Israel sided with the USA, not the USSR, but this is no longer a concern.   Our relationship with Israel has been a a bit tricky, because Israel is not a democracy such as our own.  The settlements are government built housing with factories that can pay lower wages, because of the reduced housing cost, and lower wages means a market advantage.   We are talking socialism here.

Islam is not equal to communism, however, it does oppose banks being able to charge high interest rates, and this becomes a problem with capitalism.  Education in many Muslim countries is nothing more than education in the Koran, and a religious world view, does not result in the scientific thinking essential to progress.  This is all tied into economic conflicts, but they are less serious to the USA if the USA is not dependent on the mid east for oil.  We should know thier oil money is tied to the treasury note and our economy.   Like this is crazy, we don't want the oil countries to dump their treasury bonds, but the interest rate on them is too low, and if these countries aren't making big profits they can not continue to buy our treasury bonds.   The trouble we have had with OPEC over Israel has really been n economic problem for us.

Producing our oil, seems the lesser of evils.  Producing our own oil and selling it to China, certainly has to relieve our debt problem with China.  

But why would Israel become increasingly important to the USA?  I don't see that happening if we are oil independent.  Strong relations with the Turkey, the Arabs, Chinese and India seems much more important than a relationship with Israel.

Edited by me-wonders, 30 December 2012 - 09:23 AM.

[SpiritWriter]

There is a political forum on UM.

[SpiritWriter]

And I dont say that to say that the current affairs of isreal, as well as the US involvement are not interesting or important but really it seems more like a discussion of politics and not bible study. not that these things cant go hand in hand in some venues, but they really are two different discussions

[Mr Walker]

me-wonders, on 30 December 2012 - 09:15 AM, said:

Well, I am not too comfortable with you saying "There is so much historically that i disagree with in here, that i wil not argue with you". How can I argue your points of argument if you do not state them?   Strategically, Israel is very important.  This is about more than oil but oil is so important to industrial countries, we can say, he who controls oil controls that world.  Our interest in Israel seems to have gotten serious as a result of competition with the USSR.  I think we need to be clear, this is competition for world resources and markets.  The USA got involved to be sure Israel sided with the USA, not the USSR, but this is no longer a concern.   Our relationship with Israel has been a a bit tricky, because Israel is not a democracy such as our own.  The settlements are government built housing with factories that can pay lower wages, because of the reduced housing cost, and lower wages means a market advantage.   We are talking socialism here.

Islam is not equal to communism, however, it does oppose banks being able to charge high interest rates, and this becomes a problem with capitalism.  Education in many Muslim countries is nothing more than education in the Koran, and a religious world view, does not result in the scientific thinking essential to progress.  This is all tied into economic conflicts, but they are less serious to the USA if the USA is not dependent on the mid east for oil.  We should know thier oil money is tied to the treasury note and our economy.   Like this is crazy, we don't want the oil countries to dump their treasury bonds, but the interest rate on them is too low, and if these countries aren't making big profits they can not continue to buy our treasury bonds.   The trouble we have had with OPEC over Israel has really been n economic problem for us.

Producing our oil, seems the lesser of evils.  Producing our own oil and selling it to China, certainly has to relieve our debt problem with China.  

But why would Israel become increasingly important to the USA?  I don't see that happening if we are oil independent.  Strong relations with the Turkey, the Arabs, Chinese and India seems much more important than a relationship with Israel.

Auastralia isn't a democracy like the usa either, but it is a democracy and a working one. It is a socialist democracy which also provides cheap public haousing for millions of its citizens,  and as such has many more benevolent features than america. We do have a universal health care system and have had for many decades, for example

So is israel a democracy, which makes it different to almost every other midle east state.

When i said i didnt want to argue with your pov it is because the israeli /palestinian question is more emotive than anything.

Factually israel was created by international mandate and given a small piecee of historical jewish land for a home land  That are was occupied by long time arab peole and new jewish setlers.

The arab peole within that territory could remain and become citizens of the state and still can.

However a number of surounding arab states did not accept the partition and saw israel as weak enough to be easily defeated.

Over the decades, despite overwhelming military odds, the arabs lost succecisive attacks on israel. Each time, not only did israel gain a lot more territory, but also its attitude to its defence hardened. Even so they traded back a lot of land in return for promises of peace.

Those promises were never kept. While the nation states around israel no longer attacked her, they used proxy forces like hezbolah to do so and some never signed a peace treaty remaining technically at war with Israel MAny have as part of their national  publicpolicy the destruction of Israel and her people. Israel has no such policies or agenda

  Ultimately arabs must accept the partion of palestine and the existence of israel as a nation state. Otherwise they will always b\e at war and almost certainly continually the losers in that war, in many many ways which harm their own people.

Israel will become more important to america because america's foreign policy is not, and never has been, primarily driven by oil. It is driven by national security, of which oil is a minor but important part, and by the voters /american publics perception of international afffairs.  As a non arab democracy in a sea of islamic states, and a jewish nation as opposed to an islamic one, israel will grow more popular in terms of strategic interest and in american popular opinion.

[Mr Walker]

SpiritWriter, on 30 December 2012 - 06:49 PM, said:

And I dont say that to say that the current affairs of isreal, as well as the US involvement are not interesting or important but really it seems more like a discussion of politics and not bible study. not that these things cant go hand in hand in some venues, but they really are two different discussions

MAny people believe that the role and nature of modern israel is directly tied to biblical prophecy and to the real future of the world. I do not agree, but because that linkage is there and very strong in some peoples minds, the link between modern politics and biblical study is valid. Arguably, the very prophecy you used in the OP refers to this situation and time.

There is at least one minor church which bases its main teachings on this concept, and many fundamentalists from a lot of churches make a similar connection. Others argue that christians are the modern israel, while others argue than any follower of god under the new covenant is a modern israelite in terms of biblical prophecy.

[SpiritWriter]

I understand and thank you for your contribution. Just goes to show the deep, never ending topics that can come with the text.

Edited by SpiritWriter, 31 December 2012 - 01:11 AM.

[me-wonders]

I am feeling badly about getting into politics.  I am sorry. How do you imagine this thread?  It appears my post lifted from Ezekiel was over looked.   Perhaps we can ask who has visions of God and who does not?  How do we trust someone has had a vision God?   Did Black Elk have a vision we should pay attention to?

This is something Black Elk said-

"I cured with the power that came through me. Of course, it was not I who cured, it was the power from the Outer World, the visions and the ceremonies had only made me like a hole through which the power could come to the two-leggeds."

"If I thought that I was doing it myself, the hole would close up and no power could come through. Then everything I could do would be foolish."

Isn't this compatible with the teachings of Jesus?  How should we go about bible study?  Do we focus our study on the bible, or do we compare what the bible says with what others have said?

Right now I seeing a relationship between throwing the native Americans off their land, and people loosing their homes, and warnings of bad times?   What information should we ignore and what information should we pay attention to?   I sincerely mean this, because I think things are changing and we need knowledge to cope with the change.

Edited by me-wonders, 02 January 2013 - 05:57 PM.