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Comparing Atlantis


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#1    LucidElement

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Posted 13 August 2013 - 04:54 AM

More often then not an ATLANTIS thread is formed. For that I am sorry. My buddy and I were talking about Atlantis tonight and I got to thinking, if ATLANTIS is found how would they know its really atlantis? What do they have to compare it too. Plato was 350BC or what not, Atlantis was thousands of years before him. Where did Plato get his information?? But more importantly, I never really stopped to think, how would scientists be sure or even know if it was truly Atlantis?

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#2    Myles

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Posted 13 August 2013 - 12:20 PM

What exactly makes you believe there was an Atlantis?

You are right.   There really wouldn't be a way to know unless a city sign survived.

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#3    cormac mac airt

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Posted 13 August 2013 - 12:37 PM

View PostLucidElement, on 13 August 2013 - 04:54 AM, said:

More often then not an ATLANTIS thread is formed. For that I am sorry. My buddy and I were talking about Atlantis tonight and I got to thinking, if ATLANTIS is found how would they know its really atlantis? What do they have to compare it too. Plato was 350BC or what not, Atlantis was thousands of years before him. Where did Plato get his information?? But more importantly, I never really stopped to think, how would scientists be sure or even know if it was truly Atlantis?

How does one find something that didn't exist? While Plato 'may' have gotten the name Atlantis from Herodotus' earlier story of the Atlantians, the latter places them in Northwest Africa, contemporary to the Garmantians who lived during the first millenium BC*, and at no point makes them out to be any sort of advanced society.

*  Herodotus Book 4: Melpomene [180]

http://www.sacred-te...a/hh/hh4180.htm

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#4    Red Howler

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Posted 13 August 2013 - 02:42 PM

Atlantis could've been Doggerland that vanished. Or it's an island destroyed by the Minoan eruption.

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#5    jaylemurph

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Posted 13 August 2013 - 04:18 PM

View PostLucidElement, on 13 August 2013 - 04:54 AM, said:

More often then not an ATLANTIS thread is formed. For that I am sorry. My buddy and I were talking about Atlantis tonight and I got to thinking, if ATLANTIS is found how would they know its really atlantis? What do they have to compare it too. Plato was 350BC or what not, Atlantis was thousands of years before him. Where did Plato get his information?? But more importantly, I never really stopped to think, how would scientists be sure or even know if it was truly Atlantis?

Well,  /scientists/ aren't looking for Atlantis, so they're unlikely to be the ones finding it. They tend to be smart enough to recognize a metaphor when they see one in print. People looking for Atlantis -- by definition -- lack that kind of subtle reading comprehension.

But that's the thing with fictional locations: they don't tend to telegraph themselves. Lke someone said above, there aren't signs that read "Narnia welcomes careful drivers." I suppose those who feel obligated to ignore common sense and continue looking for such places have their own little crosses to bear.

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#6    Jeremiah65

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Posted 13 August 2013 - 04:52 PM

I think so many people cling to the Atlantis story because Heinrich Schliemann found Troy....which had also long been considered a myth or allegory.

I have always felt that Plato was probably drawing on some story handed down for generations and used it to make a point.

I have no problem thinking his allegory was based on the volcanic destruction of Santorini.  Seems logical to me...but hey...what do I know.  It's seems a fine explanation and I "choose" to accept it.

Edited by Jeremiah65, 13 August 2013 - 04:54 PM.

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#7    jaylemurph

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Posted 13 August 2013 - 08:07 PM

View PostJeremiah65, on 13 August 2013 - 04:52 PM, said:

I have no problem thinking his allegory was based on the volcanic destruction of Santorini.  Seems logical to me...but hey...what do I know.  It's seems a fine explanation and I "choose" to accept it.

The main point about Atlantis boils down to belief.

People choose to believe it, and that's fine. However, belief is not dependent on reality. You can choose to believe the hideous Plateau of Leng is in southwestern Wisconsin, and you can sincerely and honestly believe that. That does not for an instant mean there's a gateway to a land of nightmares not far from Madison. Someone believing that doesn't mean the greater Wisconsin Convention and Visitor's Bureau should advertise the Plateau being there. Someone believing that doesn't mean the Plateau should be included in Wisconsin geography textbooks or history classes. Someone believing that should not be taken at face value when they show you a sign that says "For Plateau, turn left" absolutely prooves their belief. Someone sincerely believing that should not be trusted when they give you directions to it, and they should not be taken as seriously or with as much (academic or professional) respect as someone who shows the deed to that parcel of property certifying it as a dairy farm.

Belief is belief. Facts are facts. They shouldn't be treated as equals, and they shouldn't be respected equally. There are no facts that justify a belief in a literal Atlantis, and there's only so much credence to be given to anyone who says there is.

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#8    kmt_sesh

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Posted 13 August 2013 - 10:45 PM

View Postjaylemurph, on 13 August 2013 - 08:07 PM, said:

The main point about Atlantis boils down to belief.

People choose to believe it, and that's fine. However, belief is not dependent on reality. You can choose to believe the hideous Plateau of Leng is in southwestern Wisconsin, and you can sincerely and honestly believe that. That does not for an instant mean there's a gateway to a land of nightmares not far from Madison. Someone believing that doesn't mean the greater Wisconsin Convention and Visitor's Bureau should advertise the Plateau being there. Someone believing that doesn't mean the Plateau should be included in Wisconsin geography textbooks or history classes. Someone believing that should not be taken at face value when they show you a sign that says "For Plateau, turn left" absolutely prooves their belief. Someone sincerely believing that should not be trusted when they give you directions to it, and they should not be taken as seriously or with as much (academic or professional) respect as someone who shows the deed to that parcel of property certifying it as a dairy farm.

Belief is belief. Facts are facts. They shouldn't be treated as equals, and they shouldn't be respected equally. There are no facts that justify a belief in a literal Atlantis, and there's only so much credence to be given to anyone who says there is.

--Jaylemurph

Wow, nice. Let's all go with what jaylemurph said...because that pretty much says it all. :tu:

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#9    laver

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Posted 13 August 2013 - 11:51 PM

View Postkmt_sesh, on 13 August 2013 - 10:45 PM, said:

Wow, nice. Let's all go with what jaylemurph said...because that pretty much says it all. :tu:

Agreed facts are facts - but maybe we should be careful about totally dismissing myth and legends about the ancient world . Although probably much distorted there just might be a grain of truth in them. Troy might be a good example ?


#10    Nembus

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Posted 13 August 2013 - 11:57 PM

Atlantis is most likely Antarctica.


Drowned underwater by the angry "Gods" and then frozen solid. Some cite its the greeks who defeated the Atlanteans. If only fishermen were that powerful ... Now if you say the "Greek Gods", then we're talking ...


#11    cormac mac airt

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Posted 14 August 2013 - 01:07 AM

View PostNembus, on 13 August 2013 - 11:57 PM, said:

Atlantis is most likely Antarctica.


Drowned underwater by the angry "Gods" and then frozen solid. Some cite its the greeks who defeated the Atlanteans. If only fishermen were that powerful ... Now if you say the "Greek Gods", then we're talking ...

The ice of Antarctica sits upon a landmass, which means it was never "drowned" and the ice has been there since before we (Homo sapiens) even existed.

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#12    Nembus

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Posted 14 August 2013 - 01:11 AM

View Postcormac mac airt, on 14 August 2013 - 01:07 AM, said:

The ice of Antarctica sits upon a landmass, which means it was never "drowned" and the ice has been there since before we (Homo sapiens) even existed.

cormac

if you rotate the Earth water remains the same everywhere?

Who's to say we didn't exist back then? Several jumps back in historical origins of man have already been made. I don't see them ending anytime soon. Also, why do you think it was a human civilization?


#13    cormac mac airt

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Posted 14 August 2013 - 01:13 AM

View Postlaver, on 13 August 2013 - 11:51 PM, said:

Agreed facts are facts - but maybe we should be careful about totally dismissing myth and legends about the ancient world . Although probably much distorted there just might be a grain of truth in them. Troy might be a good example ?

As written about by Plato Atlantis was alleged to be located in a specific location and time and of a specific size and technological capability, which means it's not open to interpretation as being elsewhere/when. That there is no evidence for it archaeologically, genetically, temporally or linguistically pretty much negates the "all opinions are equal" approach as implied above.

cormac

The city and citizens, which you yesterday described to us in fiction, we will now transfer to the world of reality. It shall be the ancient city of Athens, and we will suppose that the citizens whom you imagined, were our veritable ancestors, of whom the priest spoke; they will perfectly harmonise, and there will be no inconsistency in saying that the citizens of your republic are these ancient Athenians. --  Plato's Timaeus

#14    cormac mac airt

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Posted 14 August 2013 - 01:19 AM

View PostNembus, on 14 August 2013 - 01:11 AM, said:


if you rotate the Earth water remains the same everywhere?

Who's to say we didn't exist back then? Several jumps back in historical origins of man have already been made. I don't see them ending anytime soon. Also, why do you think it was a human civilization?

No it doesn't, the water displacement changes depending upon what landmass is added to or subtracted from a given location. That should be obvious.

We, as in Homo sapiens, didn't. And that's the only thing relevant to a discussion of Atlantis.

I don't 'think' it was any kind of civilization. But as written by Plato it was presented as a human civilization. Your attempt at reinterpreting what Plato claimed is irrelevant.

cormac

The city and citizens, which you yesterday described to us in fiction, we will now transfer to the world of reality. It shall be the ancient city of Athens, and we will suppose that the citizens whom you imagined, were our veritable ancestors, of whom the priest spoke; they will perfectly harmonise, and there will be no inconsistency in saying that the citizens of your republic are these ancient Athenians. --  Plato's Timaeus

#15    Jeremiah65

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Posted 14 August 2013 - 01:39 AM

View Postjaylemurph, on 13 August 2013 - 08:07 PM, said:

The main point about Atlantis boils down to belief.

People choose to believe it, and that's fine. However, belief is not dependent on reality. You can choose to believe the hideous Plateau of Leng is in southwestern Wisconsin, and you can sincerely and honestly believe that. That does not for an instant mean there's a gateway to a land of nightmares not far from Madison. Someone believing that doesn't mean the greater Wisconsin Convention and Visitor's Bureau should advertise the Plateau being there. Someone believing that doesn't mean the Plateau should be included in Wisconsin geography textbooks or history classes. Someone believing that should not be taken at face value when they show you a sign that says "For Plateau, turn left" absolutely prooves their belief. Someone sincerely believing that should not be trusted when they give you directions to it, and they should not be taken as seriously or with as much (academic or professional) respect as someone who shows the deed to that parcel of property certifying it as a dairy farm.

Belief is belief. Facts are facts. They shouldn't be treated as equals, and they shouldn't be respected equally. There are no facts that justify a belief in a literal Atlantis, and there's only so much credence to be given to anyone who says there is.

--Jaylemurph

I agree with that.

I hope you got my point as to why some people may want to cling to the belief.

Plato's story was, is and shall always be a story, a philosophical example...an allegory.  My point being it is possible that he may have used the destruction of Santorini as a basis for his "cataclysm".

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