79 replies to this topic

[kmt_sesh]

I hesitate to join one of GS1's threads, for reasons which are painfully obvious to you all. I'm also not terribly well versed on Vatican history, as interesting as it is. Nevertheless, some posters have contributed useful comments in this discussion, and I thought I might toss in some remarks.

A recent issue of KMT magazine happens to have a really interesting article on the erecting of the obelisk in St. Peter's Square (Spring 2012, pages 37-51). Although the precise origin of the obelisk is not well understood—meaning to which Egyptian historical period it belonged or who commissioned it—Caligula had it erected in his favorite place, the Circus Maximus. It was there, nearby the obelisk, where Peter is said to have been crucified, upside-down on the cross.

That is why the obelisk interested the Vatican. Constantine razed the Circus Maximus and built the original Basilica of St. Peter on its foundations, with the obelisk still standing. However, the new basilica was begun in 1506 CE when the cornerstone was laid by Pope Julius II, by which time the old site at the Circus Maximus had fallen into ruins and the obelisk nearly forgotten. It was suggested in the early sixteenth century that the obelisk be moved to the new site. This fell under the sponsorship of Pope Sixtus V, who was very much interested in maintaining and glorifying Christiandom's architecture.

Domenico Fontana was the architect who won the contract to move and re-erect the obelisk. How he managed to do this is a fascinating tale and well told in the KMT article, but it's not the subject of this discussion. Simply put, the main reason the obelisk was moved to the new Basilica of St. Peter to become the centerpiece of the Square, is that the obelisk had witnessed the crucifixion and martyrdom of St. Peter. It was a natural fit.

The early Church delighted in claiming the monuments and icons of pagan religions for its own purposes. The obelisk in the Square may have been a pagan symbol, but note the ornamentation the Church added to the top to convert it to a Christian symbol. The Church certainly did not want to promote or glorify the ancient pagan religions of Egypt or Mesopotamia or Greece or Rome—it wanted to show its prowess in subverting them.

Edit: Monk, I'm a Moderator at Egyptian Dreams. How long have you been there?

Edited by kmt_sesh, 02 October 2012 - 06:46 PM.

[poetofsheba]

kmt_sesh, on 02 October 2012 - 06:45 PM, said:

A recent issue of KMT magazine happens to have a really interesting article on the erecting of the obelisk in St. Peter's Square (Spring 2012, pages 37-51). Although the precise origin of the obelisk is not well understood—meaning to which Egyptian historical period it belonged or who commissioned it—Caligula had it erected in his favorite place, the Circus Maximus. It was there, nearby the obelisk, where Peter is said to have been crucified, upside-down on the cross.

That is why the obelisk interested the Vatican. Constantine razed the Circus Maximus and built the original Basilica of St. Peter on its foundations, with the obelisk still standing. However, the new basilica was begun in 1506 CE when the cornerstone was laid by Pope Julius II, by which time the old site at the Circus Maximus had fallen into ruins and the obelisk nearly forgotten. It was suggested in the early sixteenth century that the obelisk be moved to the new site. This fell under the sponsorship of Pope Sixtus V, who was very much interested in maintaining and glorifying Christiandom's architecture.

Actually this is a little of
Circus Maximus was built on the Aventine Hill and you can still see some of the earthworks today. Augustus did import an obelisk and placed it on the spina of the Circus, where it stood for many years until it fell during the war between the Byzantines and the Goths for control of Rome. In 1587 the area was excavated and the obelisk was found, repaired and moved to Piazza del Popolo where it still stands.

Caligula built his own Circus in (what would become) the Vatican and he ordered the transport of an obelisk from Alexandria, (which Augustus had originally transported to Alexandria possibly from Heliopolis), so that he could place it on the spina of his Circus. When Nero took over as emperor he named the circus after himself, but the obelisk was allowed to stand where it was.
It's true that Nero's Circus was destroyed to build the Basilica di S. Pietro and the obelisk allowed to stand where it was until 1586 when Sixtus V ordered Domenico Fontana to move the obelisk to piazza di S. Pietro so it would be the first thing one saw when entering the piazza.

[monk 56]

Hi Kmt Sesh,

I was interested in talking to Egyptian Dream member that also are members of this forum, my interest is hermetic and hybrid religions that come after Egyptian study, i never thought of joining Egyptian Dreams, but value the knowledge there about classical religions, i study from about 1500 ad going forward purely because of Delta T problems with earlier centuries, it is enough keeping up with who was using what calendar during this time. ie Julian or Gregorian, ha ha!

I'm interested in the spread of hermeticism, with its astrology and symbolism.

http://en.wikipedia....iki/Hermeticism

There is always an orb or margin to electional astrology of 1 degree or four minutes of time, interestingly there seems great interest in Sirius and Alnilam by these groups.

In Bath UK a key was placed in the Street plan, many esoteric groups like key symbolism as the Vatican does.

http://2012forum.com...=5217&mode=view

It is possible but i'm not saying there is key hole symbolism to St Peter's Square.

http://www.charleslo...yhole 57519.jpg

The foundation stone of King's Circus in Bath UK was laid on 7th February 1754, link below:-

http://www.buildingh...an/circus.shtml

These groups seem to mark the day by ancient Greek day marker being sunset previous, midnight day marker that emerged with the invention of the clock, or sunrise day marker that the Egyptians and Romans used.

The Foundation stone in Bath UK has an ancient Greek day marker, being sunset previous to 7th February 1754, as Sun set Sirius was rising in the East, graph below:-

http://2012forum.com...=5220&mode=view

Obviously at the moment i'm going through world history and 1000's of examples.

Another of interest would be obelisk of Arles completed on 26 March 1675, probably a Roman obelisk, link below:-

http://highskyblue.w...2.com/arles.htm

Again ancient Greek daymarker, as Sun set, Sirius was culminating in middle of sky, graph below:-

http://2012forum.com...=4703&mode=view

I'm interested in Siena Cathedral that has the picture on link below:-

http://en.wikipedia....a_cathedral.jpg

[Harte]

kmt_sesh, on 02 October 2012 - 06:45 PM, said:

I hesitate to join one of GS1's threads, for reasons which are painfully obvious to you all.

You said a mouthful!

kmt_sesh, on 02 October 2012 - 06:45 PM, said:

A recent issue of KMT magazine happens to have a really interesting article on the erecting of the obelisk in St. Peter's Square (Spring 2012, pages 37-51).

Bet ya'll didn't know that Mr. Sesh had his own magazine, didja?

You should see this month's centerfold!

Harte

[kmt_sesh]

Harte, on 03 October 2012 - 05:00 PM, said:

You said a mouthful!

I was behind the curve on that one. At the time I submitted my first post in this discussion, I didn't know GS1 had been banned. No wonder things seem more peaceful.

Quote

Bet ya'll didn't know that Mr. Sesh had his own magazine, didja?

You should see this month's centerfold!

Harte

It is indeed a sight to behold! I'm wearing nothing but a coquettish smile and a strategically positioned ankh.

[monk 56]

Hi Scribe Kmt Sesh,

No doubt about GS1 you would say "The boy's ear's are on his back, he hears when he is beaten", trouble is i don't hear anything but silence, ha ha!

I love your humour, especially the funny intended forgery about Egyptian giants.

No doubt the captions of "Majestic 12 Operative" is part of that humour!

I'd like to add some humour myself about esoteric operatives for "Chicago boys", the oldest lodge i know of in that area would be Oriental Lodge No. 33, established on 9th October 1845, but i could be wrong, link below:-

http://www.oriental33.org/

Ancient Greek day marker applied, being sunset on 8th October 1845, as Sirius was on Nadir, ha ha!

[kmt_sesh]

monk 56, on 04 October 2012 - 12:50 AM, said:

Hi Scribe Kmt Sesh,

No doubt about GS1 you would say "The boy's ear's are on his back, he hears when he is beaten", trouble is i don't hear anything but silence, ha ha!

I love your humour, especially the funny intended forgery about Egyptian giants.

No doubt the captions of "Majestic 12 Operative" is part of that humour!

I'd like to add some humour myself about esoteric operatives for "Chicago boys", the oldest lodge i know of in that area would be Oriental Lodge No. 33, established on 9th October 1845, but i could be wrong, link below:-

http://www.oriental33.org/

Ancient Greek day marker applied, being sunset on 8th October 1845, as Sirius was on Nadir, ha ha!

LOL That "Boy's ears" proverb is one of my favorites.

[monk 56]

Hi Kmt Seth,

Sadly with GS1, "One falsehood spoils a thousand truths"

Now if he had started a thread on sacred geometry of "The Pentagon", i would have to agree that it was built with PHI in mind, 5 storeys tall, 5 sections deep, 10 compartments:-

http://androidspin.c...12/Pentagon.jpg

I love the groundbreaking ceremony, on 11th Semptember 1941, a day dedicated to Thoth in Coptic Calendar!

[monk 56]

Hi Kmt_Sesh,

We are very lucky to have a scholar such as yourself on this forum, it is great that you can translate ancient egyptian into coptic and explain to members, although i have a problem with your humour, indeed if we went back a couple of centuries with universities, a classical education was the most important, in America this is called Greek Letter Organizations, Greek and Latin proverbs were often used in a classical and Renaissance scholarly approach, please forgive "Chicago Boys" reference that i made in humour, that obviously you are not connected to, but was used in black humour with your caption of Magestic 12 Operative, obviously humerous, LOL!

When we go into history we are prone to Latin and Egyptian proverbs and symbolism, obviously there is another way to understand Phi with The Pentagon, it's all about the power of five in beliefs, Phi= 5^.5*.5+.5, as shown on link below:-

http://2012forum.com...=4902&mode=view

University study is prone to Greek Letter organizations, like below:-

http://en.wikipedia....n_North_America

Surely you have trouble, and would like to keep away from pictures like below involving the Mystical Seven at Missouri University?:-

http://en.wikipedia....alSeven2005.jpg

11th September is very interesting with Chicago Boys, it involves when Pinochet came to power in Chile, very interesting in symbolism!

http://en.wikipedia....ki/Chicago_Boys

http://en.wikipedia....an_coup_of_1973

Very interesting as we value Thout, isn't it?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Thout

http://www.copticchu...net/easter.html

[kmt_sesh]

monk 56, on 06 October 2012 - 11:39 AM, said:

Hi Kmt_Sesh,

We are very lucky to have a scholar such as yourself on this forum, it is great that you can translate ancient egyptian into coptic and explain to members, although i have a problem with your humour, indeed if we went back a couple of centuries with universities, a classical education was the most important, in America this is called Greek Letter Organizations, Greek and Latin proverbs were often used in a classical and Renaissance scholarly approach, please forgive "Chicago Boys" reference that i made in humour, that obviously you are not connected to, but was used in black humour with your caption of Magestic 12 Operative, obviously humerous, LOL!

When we go into history we are prone to Latin and Egyptian proverbs and symbolism, obviously there is another way to understand Phi with The Pentagon, it's all about the power of five in beliefs, Phi= 5^.5*.5+.5, as shown on link below:-

...

No offense was taken with the "Chicago Boys" reference so don't give it another thought. I'm not sure what you mean by "Majestic 12 Operative," however. That is only my rank at UM based on the number of posts I've written over the years. I have no control over that. Whatever the number of posts is, if you reach it at some point, you also will become a Majestic 12 Operative.

LOL I was a bit nonplussed that you have a problem with my humor. In all my years of posting on various message boards, no one has ever had a problem with my sense of humor. Pray, please do elaborate on that one. I'm dying to know!

I must confess I have no interest in secret organizations, cults, and esoteric brotherhoods. I have no background in those areas to discuss them with you. My interest lies in the archaeology and research of the ancient Near East. For the record, while I can translate Egyptian hieroglyphs, I have no training or background in the Coptic language aside from its linguistic context in the history of Egypt. I couldn't read a sentence of Coptic. I transliterate and translate hieroglyphs into English. If I really worked at it I might be able to do it to some extent into German, but in the end I'd probably embarrass myself and offend some Germans.

[Harte]

kmt_sesh, on 07 October 2012 - 02:24 AM, said:

In all my years of posting on various message boards, no one has ever had a problem with my sense of humor.

Maybe because we're still waiting to see it?

Harte

[Imaginarynumber1]

Harte, on 07 October 2012 - 03:34 AM, said:

Maybe because we're still waiting to see it?

Harte

[Mangoze]

monk 56, on 06 October 2012 - 11:39 AM, said:

...

When we go into history we are prone to Latin and Egyptian proverbs and symbolism, obviously there is another way to understand Phi with The Pentagon, it's all about the power of five in beliefs, Phi= 5^.5*.5+.5, as shown on link below:-

http://2012forum.com...=4902&mode=view
...

Which cultures were the earliest users of decimal fractions?

Edited by Mangoze, 07 October 2012 - 03:50 AM.

[kmt_sesh]

Harte, on 07 October 2012 - 03:34 AM, said:

Maybe because we're still waiting to see it?

Harte

Ha!

Zing!

[monk 56]

Before everyone jumps in, lets see that the amount of posts and credibility of senior members and esteemed moderators are not helped by the caption of "Majestic 12 Operative", it has not been established that it really exists, and although i study secret societies, that doesn't extend to perhaps Pseudoscience and the possibility of "Majestic 12 Operatives" and UFO research!

http://en.wikipedia....iki/Majestic_12

No doubt members see the need for reform of "caption" for many esteemed members, and thus i apologize to Kmt_Sesh, but would be a common mistake by a new member, i think Kmt_Sesh would agree that mental confusion exists regarding long esteemed members and "Sigils or Captions", and this is at the heart of "my humour", i was wrong, but it is a forum problem not connected to me!!!

Edited by monk 56, 07 October 2012 - 09:41 AM.