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[Archived]Oera Linda Book and the Great Flood


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#7891    Otharus

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Posted 22 November 2011 - 10:55 PM

View PostKnul, on 22 November 2011 - 05:41 PM, said:

Cornelis over de Linden tells in the testament, that Ottema teached him the letters, which is in contradiction with the words of Sipkens.
So, if Sipkens did not lie, Over de Linden lied.
I don't think it has to be that black and white.
CodL may have tried to read some lines and he may have succeeded more or less.
From Ottema he will have learned to read it better.
If Sipkens said CodL read some lines, we don't know how well he did that.

Quote

Similarly over de Linden said that he received a book and told so to Verwijs, but Ottema advised him to bind the loose papers. Stadermann was a bookbinder, but he did not bind the book. Probably because he hadn't yet finished his part of the forgery, when he died.
No, a bundle of loose papers can still be called a book, bound or not.

Quote

I can proof, that the OLB did not yet exist in the middle ages, not just with linguistics, but with may other items like the philosophy of Descartes, the discovery of the Inca's, the introduction in Europe of Buddhism, and so on.
Your 'clue' to Descartes I have already dealt with.
I don't see why "INKA" can not have been a pre-Medieval name.
There are more pre-Medieval texts in which BUDA is mentioned.
A Buddha statue was found in a Viking grave.

~ ~ ~

I'll try to have a break from 'discussing' with you, Knul.
I feel like I wasted too much time today.
No hard feelings.


#7892    Otharus

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Posted 23 November 2011 - 08:47 AM

View PostOtharus, on 22 November 2011 - 06:07 AM, said:

The trustee of the manuscript (Reuvers) teaches his son-in-law (R. Kofman), who moves into the family house, the secrets of the book. But then, shortly after Reuvers dies (1845), the cousin who desperately wants the manuscript, because he has heard something about it, starts to try and get hold of it. First (1845), he fails and goes back empty handed, maybe because he  was mislead to believe his mother (Anna) had it. A few years later (1848) he comes back and now manages to take it by force or maybe even steal it.
Today, November 23, in the Westfrisian daily newspaper (Dagblad voor West-Friesland), an photo was published from the family of Trijntje Kofman and Andries Zwaan.

The brother of Trijntje, Hein (Hendrik Kofman) would have claimed that Cornelis Over de Linden had stolen the OLB from his parents, Cornelia Reuvers and Rijkent Kofman, who were living in the house of Cornelis' aunt, Aafje Over de Linden (1798-1849).

Posted Image

Simplified genealogy fragment Over de Linden/Kofman
(source: http://fryskednis.bl...-genealogy.html)

(I) Andries OVER DE LINDEN (1759-1820) carpenter, grandfather of Cornelis and keeper of the manuscript (according to Cornelis);
married 1782 to IJfje SCHOLS (1762-1820)
children:
1) Pieter (1782-1819)
2) Jan (1785-1835), father of Cornelis
3) Trijntje (1791-?)
4) Antjen (1795-1882)
5) Aafje (1798-1849) ==>> see (II)

(II) Aafje OVER DE LINDEN (1798-1849) dealer in used goods, aunt of Cornelis, living in the house of her parents, keeper of the manuscript together with her husband (according to Cornelis);
married (1st) 1821 to Hendrik REUVERS (1796-1845) son of Cornelia Brouwer and unknown father, assistant of cheese trader/labourer;
married (2nd) 1846 to Koop MEIJLOF
children, both accepted at marriage:
1) Cornelia (1818-1878) ==>> see (III)
2) Andries (1820-?)

(III) Cornelia REUVERS (1818-1878) cousin of Cornelis, living in the house of her parents;
married 1838 to Rijkent KOFMAN (1820-1861), carpenter
children:
1) Trijntje (1839-1912) ==>> see (IV)
2) Jacob (1843-) leader of "Apostolic Mission Community"
3) Hendrik (1853-) frontrunner of socialist movement
4) Wiggertje (1857-?)

(IV) Trijntje KOFMAN (1839-1912)
married 2-12-1858 Andijk to:
Andries ZWAAN (1830-1909) landfarmer
children:
1) Hendrik (1859-1919)
2) Rijkent (1860-1954)
3) Klaas (1862-1922)
4) Cornelia (1863-1924)
5) Teetje (1865-1919
6) Aafje (1867-1941)
7) Andries (1870-1945)
8) Jacob (1873-1937)
9) Roelof (1875-?)
10) Piet (1877-1935)
11) Willem (1882-?)

Edited by Otharus, 23 November 2011 - 09:04 AM.


#7893    Abramelin

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Posted 23 November 2011 - 11:29 AM

View PostAlewyn, on 21 November 2011 - 08:25 PM, said:

So you are saying it is lies, lies, all lies; the Oera Linda Book, the letters, the sworn statements, the essays, the investigations (like E. Molenaar's) etc., etc.
Many of these people were not even Over de Lindes, yet they actively supported the hoax to create this glorious past for the Oera Lindas, or for Friesland, or whatever and, they had no profit motive.

Oh, and before I forget, they were all, what we would call today, working class or blue collared workers and yet, they worked hand in glove with brilliant guys like Dr. Halbertsma. What makes their feat even more remarkable is that nobody could ever crack this extended band of cheats or, shall we say, this brotherhood. Not a single one ever leaked a word of this conspiracy. They even fooled the best linguist in the Netherlands of the time - Dr. Ottema. Truly remarkable!

Of course, we do not have any evidence of this but, who cares? It makes perfect sense.

From what I read about Halbertsma's travels through the Frisian country side, in east and west, the islands and Saterland, he - being brilliant and a professor and all that - he had no problems taking peasants and blue collar workers seriously when he questioned them about sagas, legends, fairy tales and their dialect.

But my idea about what happened is different from Knul's and Jensma's ideas.

Like I have said, I think Halbertsma created an alternative ancient Frisian history based on all he knew about legends and myths, and used a Old Frisian-ish language to put the story down. But he did it for his own amusement, not to publish it, not to fool anyone, just for his own fun.

Then some acquaintence or friend got hold of what Halbertsma had written, and either copied it or maybe even stole it, or simply asked Halbertsma if he could have it. In that last case Halbertsma would not have seen any harm in giving those texts away. Halbertsma died before the OLB was published, btw.

I don't think a Halbertsma created the OLB script, and I also think others added to his original text.

A Cornelis over de Linden may have been busy creating an 'ancient family chronicle' for decades, maybe initially as nothing but a 'hobby' (or maybe he did have some agenda), but got stuck at some point because of lack of inspiration and/or the necessary knowledge of the preferred language and ancient legends and history.

Those initial texts - that is: not the final manuscript as we know of now - were the texts witnessed by some others.

Then he somehow got hold of Halbertsma's creation, and used that to complete - or completely rearrange - his own work. His - or someone else's - additions were the source of confusion: how could this or that word show up in that ancient text? Well, that's because he - or someone else - lacked the necessary knowledge, and so anachronisms (and errors) showed up in the OLB.

.

Edited by Abramelin, 23 November 2011 - 11:33 AM.


#7894    Abramelin

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Posted 23 November 2011 - 11:37 AM

View PostOtharus, on 22 November 2011 - 09:29 AM, said:

Something nice to study in the context of this threat:
Posted Image

Man, that's a beautifull map.

I saved it, and let's see what we can find on that map.

.

Edited by Abramelin, 23 November 2011 - 11:38 AM.


#7895    Abramelin

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Posted 23 November 2011 - 11:57 AM

View PostKnul, on 22 November 2011 - 05:41 PM, said:

< skip >

I can proof, that the OLB did not yet exist in the middle ages, not just with linguistics, but with may other items like the philosophy of Descartes, the discovery of the Inca's, the introduction in Europe of Buddhism  and so on.

The only thing the OLB says is that when Nef Teunis entered the Middle Sea, Inka went into the other direction to find out if there was anything left of Aldland.

Of course half the world thought that would mean that this guy "Inka" settled in the Americas and was responsible for the Inca civilization, conveniently forgetting that if that was what really happened, he had to travel through the largest jungle on earth and finally settle down somewhere in the Andes.

And let's also forget that the Incas were late-comers on the stage.


#7896    Abramelin

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Posted 23 November 2011 - 12:30 PM

View PostKnul, on 22 November 2011 - 10:32 AM, said:

Twiskland is the middle part of the present Germany, north lived Saxons. south the Alemans (French: Allemagne). Twiskland is where is now the Teutenburger Wald. So the Twiskar were Teutons, etym. *tuisk-, which is not the same as twisk= between.

As I have shown you (read former pages) the word "Twisk" obviously served 2 purposes: either as name for the Teutons, and to mean "in between".

Tuisco was - according to Tacitus - the supreme god of the Germanic tribes.
Twisk means "between" or "in between" in Frisian. In old fashioned Dutch it would be "tusschen".

Combine the two and you get a land with a name - Twiskland - meaning something like 'Land of the Germans/Teutons located between the Fryans and Magyar/Finda"

A reminder:

Posted Image

Edited by Abramelin, 23 November 2011 - 12:31 PM.


#7897    Knul

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Posted 23 November 2011 - 01:06 PM

View PostAbramelin, on 23 November 2011 - 11:29 AM, said:

From what I read about Halbertsma's travels through the Frisian country side, in east and west, the islands and Saterland, he - being brilliant and a professor and all that - he had no problems taking peasants and blue collar workers seriously when he questioned them about sagas, legends, fairy tales and their dialect.

But my idea about what happened is different from Knul's and Jensma's ideas.

Like I have said, I think Halbertsma created an alternative ancient Frisian history based on all he knew about legends and myths, and used a Old Frisian-ish language to put the story down. But he did it for his own amusement, not to publish it, not to fool anyone, just for his own fun.

Then some acquaintence or friend got hold of what Halbertsma had written, and either copied it or maybe even stole it, or simply asked Halbertsma if he could have it. In that last case Halbertsma would not have seen any harm in giving those texts away. Halbertsma died before the OLB was published, btw.

I don't think a Halbertsma created the OLB script, and I also think others added to his original text.

A Cornelis over de Linden may have been busy creating an 'ancient family chronicle' for decades, maybe initially as nothing but a 'hobby' (or maybe he did have some agenda), but got stuck at some point because of lack of inspiration and/or the necessary knowledge of the preferred language and ancient legends and history.

Those initial texts - that is: not the final manuscript as we know of now - were the texts witnessed by some others.

Then he somehow got hold of Halbertsma's creation, and used that to complete - or completely rearrange - his own work. His - or someone else's - additions were the source of confusion: how could this or that word show up in that ancient text? Well, that's because he - or someone else - lacked the necessary knowledge, and so anachronisms (and errors) showed up in the OLB.

.

1. The jol-script forms an integral part of the text of the OLB and cannot be added later as you can see at the description, the reference of Godfried for having created the numerals and the contiuous page numbering.
2. The initial text has been prepared for the printer as you can see at the 'snakes', remarks in the left marge and dots within words.
3. You said earlier, that you did not believe, that Halbertsma wrote the OLB because of the poor Oldfrisian. Even if he did not want to publish it, he would not have done so. Did you change your mind ?
4. Witness reports speak about strange letters.
5. Anachronisms have been included by the author himself, like the birth of Minnos in Livdwert, where he died also, the meeting between Jessos and a Frisian slave, etc.


#7898    Knul

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Posted 23 November 2011 - 01:09 PM

View PostAbramelin, on 23 November 2011 - 12:30 PM, said:

As I have shown you (read former pages) the word "Twisk" obviously served 2 purposes: either as name for the Teutons, and to mean "in between".

Tuisco was - according to Tacitus - the supreme god of the Germanic tribes.
Twisk means "between" or "in between" in Frisian. In old fashioned Dutch it would be "tusschen".

Combine the two and you get a land with a name - Twiskland - meaning something like 'Land of the Germans/Teutons located between the Fryans and Magyar/Finda"

A reminder:

Posted Image

Just be accident or an explanation like alemanen - just men.


#7899    Knul

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Posted 23 November 2011 - 01:13 PM

View PostAbramelin, on 23 November 2011 - 11:57 AM, said:

The only thing the OLB says is that when Nef Teunis entered the Middle Sea, Inka went into the other direction to find out if there was anything left of Aldland.

Of course half the world thought that would mean that this guy "Inka" settled in the Americas and was responsible for the Inca civilization, conveniently forgetting that if that was what really happened, he had to travel through the largest jungle on earth and finally settle down somewhere in the Andes.

And let's also forget that the Incas were late-comers on the stage.

It's what Jensma brought in. There is a place called Inca on Mallorca as well s. http://nl.wikipedia..../Inca_(Mallorca)


#7900    Knul

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Posted 23 November 2011 - 01:20 PM

View PostOtharus, on 22 November 2011 - 10:55 PM, said:

I don't think it has to be that black and white.
CodL may have tried to read some lines and he may have succeeded more or less.
From Ottema he will have learned to read it better.
If Sipkens said CodL read some lines, we don't know how well he did that.


No, a bundle of loose papers can still be called a book, bound or not.


Your 'clue' to Descartes I have already dealt with.
I don't see why "INKA" can not have been a pre-Medieval name.
There are more pre-Medieval texts in which BUDA is mentioned.
A Buddha statue was found in a Viking grave.

~ ~ ~

I'll try to have a break from 'discussing' with you, Knul.
I feel like I wasted too much time today.
No hard feelings.

You are right, it's a waste of time. You simply do not accept any evidence.


#7901    Knul

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Posted 23 November 2011 - 02:24 PM

Boeddhistische Omroep Stichting
DE MIDDENWEG
Ds. Halbertsma
Uitzenddatum: Zondag 30-11-2008 22.30 – 23.00 Radio 5

Ruim 165 jaar geleden werd in Nederland voor het eerst een beschrijving van het boeddhisme gepubliceerd. Het boekje, getiteld Het boeddhisme en zijn stichter, was geschreven door dominee Halbertsma, die oorspronkelijk uit Friesland kwam.

Halbertsma was naast theoloog ook taalgeleerde en correspondeerde veelvuldig met andere geïnteresseerden. Hij had contacten over de hele wereld en verzamelde op die manier kennis over beschavingen waar hij nooit eerder over had gehoord. Halbertsma zag het boeddhisme als een vorm van bevrijding, net zoals hij zijn eigen doopsgezinde geloof zag als bevrijding van het katholicisme.

Alpita de Jong deed onderzoek naar leven en werk van Halbertsma. Ze las zijn volledige correspondentie en reisde naar plekken waar nog sporen van hem te vinden zouden kunnen zijn. Peter Meijwes sprak met haar.

Presentatie: Ton Maas
Samenstelling: Peter Meijwes

As Boeddha was unknown in the Netherlands before Halbertsma published his book in 1843, it means that the OLB has been written after 1843.


#7902    Knul

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Posted 23 November 2011 - 03:01 PM

View PostOtharus, on 22 November 2011 - 10:55 PM, said:

I don't think it has to be that black and white.
CodL may have tried to read some lines and he may have succeeded more or less.
From Ottema he will have learned to read it better.
If Sipkens said CodL read some lines, we don't know how well he did that.


No, a bundle of loose papers can still be called a book, bound or not.


Your 'clue' to Descartes I have already dealt with.
I don't see why "INKA" can not have been a pre-Medieval name.
There are more pre-Medieval texts in which BUDA is mentioned.
A Buddha statue was found in a Viking grave.

~ ~ ~

I'll try to have a break from 'discussing' with you, Knul.
I feel like I wasted too much time today.
No hard feelings.

You have not responded to Descartes at all. Just repeat what you have written. I am very curious which pre-medieval texts about Buda you mean, probably Chinese. Over de Linden talked about a small book and a thick book, not about a bundle of loose papers. When did they discover the Inca's ? Before Columbus ?

Edited by Knul, 23 November 2011 - 03:07 PM.


#7903    Abramelin

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Posted 23 November 2011 - 03:02 PM

View PostKnul, on 23 November 2011 - 01:06 PM, said:

1. The jol-script forms an integral part of the text of the OLB and cannot be added later as you can see at the description, the reference of Godfried for having created the numerals and the contiuous page numbering.
2. The initial text has been prepared for the printer as you can see at the 'snakes', remarks in the left marge and dots within words.
3. You said earlier, that you did not believe, that Halbertsma wrote the OLB because of the poor Oldfrisian. Even if he did not want to publish it, he would not have done so. Did you change your mind ?
4. Witness reports speak about strange letters.
5. Anachronisms have been included by the author himself, like the birth of Minnos in Livdwert, where he died also, the meeting between Jessos and a Frisian slave, etc.

-1- The Jol script could have been added at any moment. If you can show me the manuscript like it was decades before it got published by Ottema, then maybe you have a point.

-2- Could be.

-3- I said I believe Halbertsma created an 'alternative ancient history of the Frisians'. He may have written it in some old-ish language, but just for his own entertainment. Then someone else got hold of his work, and this person added his own text to Halbertsma's original. Those additions were responsible for the anachronisms and linguistic errors in the OLB.

-4- Again: I said an Over de Linden may have been busy creating some 'ancient manuscript' decades before the OLB got published. And those early papers is what the witnesses claimed to have seen, but that was not the OLB as we know it. Over de Linden with the help of whoever finished his work after he got hold of Halbertsma's creation.

-5- see -3-


#7904    Abramelin

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Posted 23 November 2011 - 03:03 PM

View PostKnul, on 23 November 2011 - 01:09 PM, said:

Just be accident or an explanation like alemanen - just men.

????


#7905    Knul

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Posted 23 November 2011 - 04:53 PM

It is clear to me, that the initial text has been written by Joast Halbertsma (probably with help of Eeltsje Halbertsma) and that the text got in the hands of Ernest Stadermann on one of the auctions of Fa. Bom in Amsterdam. He looked at it and recognized the names of Hidde and Liko ovira Linda. I think this happened after 1858, when Eeltsje died and his books and loose papers were sold in Leeuwarden. Then Stadermann and Over de Linden made a plan to 'translate' the text in Oldfrisian to show the old origin of the family Over de Linden and decided to apply the jol-wheel to the entire text. Stadermann, who knew as a bookbinder and book restaurator bought the 'foreign' paper in Maastricht and Cornelis over de Linden prepared the text (by means of a word-for-word translation with help of an Oldfrisian dictionary) the text and Stadermann transcribed that text into jol-script. Headmaster Sipkens was their first test-case, Jansen their second and finally Eelco Verwijs their third. With the dead of Stadermann Cornelis over de Linden fancied, that he got the book from his aunt Aafje, who died in 1849. In his testament Cornelis over de Linden admitted to his grandson, that he doubted about the genuinity, when the matter of the pile-dwellers was brought up, but that this was not supported by Ottema. In this frame fits what we know about the OLB but not what has been lied. The whole forgery started with Stadermann.

Edited by Knul, 23 November 2011 - 04:58 PM.