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Hundreds of Thousands protest in Egypt


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#46    odas

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Posted 02 July 2013 - 05:49 PM

View PostKowalski, on 01 July 2013 - 03:27 PM, said:

According to here: http://www.cnn.com/2....html?hpt=hp_t2



If it's a true democracy, shouldn't they listen to the will of the people?
What politicians do?


#47    odas

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Posted 02 July 2013 - 05:57 PM

View Postmeryt-tetisheri, on 02 July 2013 - 01:48 PM, said:

This is how the US policy is viewed in Egypt:

https://www.facebook...ikhwan.kazeboon

Nagla El Baz wrote:

"Before the world wakes up to the sudden discovery that Morsi is no longer the legitimate president of Egypt, I'd like to tell you my friends that for some reason your media has kept the truth hidden from you. Egypt is not a divided country. Liberals are NOT a minority in Egypt. We have been trying to get rid of the Muslim Brotherhood rule by all possible means. They do not respresent ...our identity nor our religion. They only seized an opportunity, a moment of total chaos, when the state was at its weakest and the people were in desperate need for stability, while there was no other organized political body on the scene.
A whole year of misery under this oppressive Islamist regime that was racing to destroy our civil state and restrict our human rights by imposing a constitution which belonged to the Middle Ages, left us with no choice but to rebel.
Millions took to the streets demading President Mohamed Morsi to step down immediately after he had ignorned our voices through this whole year in favor of his Gama'a, the Muslim Brotherhood.
During this year, President Obama's administration and the American Ambassador in Egypt, Mrs. Patterson, were literally shoving the Brotherhood down our throats, giving us signals that if we do not allow President Morsi to finish his term and if we ever think about rebelling and seeking the protection of our Armed Forces as shelter against the terrorist groups who flourished all over Egypt during his rule, we would be messing with "democracy"! And Mrs. Patterson made it very clear on several occasions that the US will not support any attempt to mess with this so-called democracy. They left us to suffer and imposed a media blackout on what is taking place in Egypt, always describing the opposition as weak and saying that the MB enjoys a legitimacy supported by the majority of Egyptians, which was totally false and they knew it.
This attempt to force a single version of democracy in the Middle East has proven to be nothing but disasterous so far. God knows what is on this administration's mind, but whatever their plan is, it is not working and it is not making the world we live in any safer.
This is just my humble attempt to let you know what the hell is going on in Egypt and how you were being kept in the dark about it.
We are a civilzed nation. We value the USA role when it is for the good. However, our experience with the current US administration and the international media during these past two years has left us extremely frustrated and skeptic."
Good luck, egyptions. You will succssed. Chose your president then chose your friends, do not let them chose you. Important is what is best for you not what is best for a foreign leader.


#48    Black Red Devil

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Posted 02 July 2013 - 07:23 PM

View PostCorp, on 02 July 2013 - 05:22 PM, said:

Surprising amount of whining about Obama in a thread about Egypt. Personally I believe it was the Egyptians, not Obama, who removed Mubarak from power and then elected the MB to form the current government. And now it looks like it will be the Egyptians, again without Obama telling them what to think and do, are seeking another change in government. But hey something is happening in the Middle East so it must be an evil American plot right? :rolleyes:

LOL and don't let anyone ever convince you otherwise.  :yes:  You wouldn't want to suffer such a trauma.  You don't want to wake up one day and realise the world is a naughty place with devious politicians who have caused the death of millions through improper interventionism just so they can get an edge on their opponents.

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#49    and then

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Posted 02 July 2013 - 07:51 PM

View PostCorp, on 02 July 2013 - 05:22 PM, said:

Surprising amount of whining about Obama in a thread about Egypt. Personally I believe it was the Egyptians, not Obama, who removed Mubarak from power and then elected the MB to form the current government. And now it looks like it will be the Egyptians, again without Obama telling them what to think and do, are seeking another change in government. But hey something is happening in the Middle East so it must be an evil American plot right? :rolleyes:


Anyway I hope the violence on both sides come to an end and that the MB clues in that taking a hardline is a massive stupid move and some kind of peaceful resolution can be put into place. Maybe once this crisis passes Egypt can get some much needed stability and cooperation between the various factions within the country. Looks like the opposition groups are starting to unite for fully, though time will tell how long that lasts. Sounds like the police forces are siding with the military and the protesters so if Morsi tries for a fight I don't think it will be a long one.
I think that mischaracterizes things we've been discussing - at least to a certain extent.  Obama did not CAUSE the revolt.  He  DID help the MB take advantage of the aftermath and help Mursi become firmly entrenched in power as he might otherwise NOT have done to such an extent (if at all).

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  for what could be, the darkest age...

#50    meryt-tetisheri

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Posted 02 July 2013 - 08:46 PM

View PostCorp, on 02 July 2013 - 05:22 PM, said:

Surprising amount of whining about Obama in a thread about Egypt. Personally I believe it was the Egyptians, not Obama, who removed Mubarak from power and then elected the MB to form the current government. And now it looks like it will be the Egyptians, again without Obama telling them what to think and do, are seeking another change in government. But hey something is happening in the Middle East so it must be an evil American plot right? :rolleyes:

No, wrong! I am not the kind of person who looks for scapegoats and excuses to hang my mistakes, and I am definitely not a whiner, I have more backbone than that!  The opinions I expressed here are not only mine but are shared by the majority of Egyptians. The US did actively interfer in the Egyptian political process with the aim of propping up the MB.

Have you been closely following the news of the ME? You can research the facts and timeline of all the events I mentioned in my previous post; you can also check all the statements made by Ambassador Patterson regarding the internal politics of Egypt which raised the hackles of all opposition politicians. If you have an alternative interpretation of the statements, the secretive meetings, the timing of Clinton's visits and how it coincided with Mursi's disasterous decisions, or General Dempsey's call to the Egyptian army chief just after the ultimatum was given to Mursi, then kindly offer them for discussion.

"At a meeting with political parties and NGOs on Tuesday, Patterson said the US would not welcome the return of the army to power as an alternative to the Muslim Brotherhood."
http://english.ahram...t-interfer.aspx
Would you call such a statement neutral?

http://www.ynetnews....4399520,00.html

http://online.wsj.co...0191617416.html

http://www.algemeine...ting-islamists/

Six people were killed today in one suburb of Cairo, if Egyptians were passive whiners looking for a scapegoat, they would not be risking their lives on the streets.


#51    Yamato

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Posted 03 July 2013 - 01:33 PM

Egypt -- Teaching the US what freedom is since 2011.

I can't believe that Obama just warned the military that Egypt is going to lose the US if it doesn't respect the political process and hump Morsi's leg.

The principle of non-interventionism in US foreign policy was scoffed at when we were propping up that dictator Mubarak.  But now that we're propping up someone meryt doesn't like, it's wrong.   Making exceptions because something is politically agreeable in someone's opinion is exactly what allows the US to get away with this crap in the first place.   When the shoe's on the other foot, suddenly it doesn't fit.  But when you've got principle, the shoe never fits, period.   Forget that 35 years of coddling our puppet, suddenly we're the champions of democracy again, hypocrites that we are.

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#52    Frank Merton

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Posted 03 July 2013 - 01:45 PM

I have to say it does seem Morsi has lost legitimacy and should therefore resign to avoid bloodshed.  What has been posted as representing Egyptian opinion above though probably only represents that particular anti-Morsi individual's opinion.  There is little doubt he did win the election legitimatly (all elections have elements in them that can be questioned, but at the time international neutral opinion was that he had legitimately won).  Overturning legitimately elected officials is sometimes necessary when they exceed their own legitimacy, but sheesh it is asking for no end of trouble.


#53    meryt-tetisheri

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Posted 03 July 2013 - 02:40 PM

View PostYamato, on 03 July 2013 - 01:33 PM, said:

Egypt -- Teaching the US what freedom is since 2011.

I can't believe that Obama just warned the military that Egypt is going to lose the US if it doesn't respect the political process and hump Morsi's leg.

The principle of non-interventionism in US foreign policy was scoffed at when we were propping up that dictator Mubarak.  But now that we're propping up someone meryt doesn't like, it's wrong.   Making exceptions because something is politically agreeable in someone's opinion is exactly what allows the US to get away with this crap in the first place.   When the shoe's on the other foot, suddenly it doesn't fit.  But when you've got principle, the shoe never fits, period.   Forget that 35 years of coddling our puppet, suddenly we're the champions of democracy again, hypocrites that we are.

Was the 'principle of non-interventionism' ever applied? Seriously Yamato? Do you really believe what you wrote? Coming from you who have always called for saving American tax dollars and criticizing American intervention in other countries' affairs, this post is surprising!

Whether it's Mubarak or Mursi, my position has always been SIDE WITH THE PEOPLE not the regime. Rulers come and go; the people are the only reliable staying power. Propping up any regime morally implicates those who are supporting it.

You are free to accept, reject, or disregard my opinion but I am not the only " that particular anti-Morsi individual" who voiced it, there are millions with similar opinion on the streets of Egypt now.

As for teaching the US about freedom, each people have the right to define and decide for themselves what kind of freedom they aspire to have in their country. This applies to Egypt as much as it does for the US. I was under the impression that you backed the idea of 'freedom' as a universal right.

Edited by meryt-tetisheri, 03 July 2013 - 02:43 PM.


#54    shaddow134

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Posted 03 July 2013 - 02:52 PM

It was always going to end in tears for Morsi,anybody who thought the Military where ever going to sit back and let things develop are deluded.

The Middle East is probably now so Unstable that it isn't going to take much to start an all out war.

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#55    third_eye

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Posted 03 July 2013 - 02:53 PM

Mursi is barely breathing sitting under all the barrels and swords pointing at his head from all sides ... he goes he dies ... he stay he will soon die ...

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#56    Merc14

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Posted 03 July 2013 - 02:55 PM

America's unbelievably bad policy moves in Egypt by the regime in Washington  As per the Corner http://www.nationalr...cy-david-french


First, on May 10, 2013, the Obama administration elected to waive human rights restrictions placed on American military aid to Egypt, freeing up $1.3 billion for the Muslim Brotherhood regime's military without the required showing that the "Government of Egypt is supporting the transition to civilian government, including holding free and fair elections and implementing policies to protect freedom of expression, association, and religion and due process of law."  
In other words, the Morsi government could keep funding the military even as it brutally oppressed dissent, including Egypt's embattled Coptic Christian community.
Fast-forward to Monday, July 1, 2013. The corrupt, oppressive Muslim Brotherhood government had just faced what some were counting among the largest public protests in history. And here's our president. From the Guardian:


On Monday, the U.S. president, Barack Obama, indicated that Morsi had not yet lost his backing. "We don't make those decisions just by counting the number of heads in a protest march but we do make decisions based on whether or not a government is listening to the opposition, maintaining a free press, maintaining freedom of assembly, not using violence or intimidation, conducting fair and free elections," he said.

Wait, what? Do you not remember that you just waived those very same human rights requirements not even two months ago? How much could you possibly care about these basic liberties?  
Now fast-forward to today, July 3, when we learn that the administration does actually care. From CNN:


Officials have also warned the Egyptian military that a military coup [against the Muslim Brotherhood] would trigger U.S. legislation cutting off all U.S. aid, which totals about $1.5 billion per year.
For those keeping score at home, the Obama administration waives human rights requirements when the Muslim Brotherhood is in power but then threatens to impose those very same waived requirements when the military — our decades-long ally within Egypt — threatens to assert control.



You asked for Obamamerica, now you are going to get it.  Stand by for suck or as Pelosi says, "Embrace the suck".

#57    shaddow134

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Posted 03 July 2013 - 03:08 PM

View PostMerc14, on 03 July 2013 - 02:55 PM, said:

America's unbelievably bad policy moves in Egypt by the regime in Washington  As per the Corner http://www.nationalr...cy-david-french


First, on May 10, 2013, the Obama administration elected to waive human rights restrictions placed on American military aid to Egypt, freeing up $1.3 billion for the Muslim Brotherhood regime's military without the required showing that the "Government of Egypt is supporting the transition to civilian government, including holding free and fair elections and implementing policies to protect freedom of expression, association, and religion and due process of law."  
In other words, the Morsi government could keep funding the military even as it brutally oppressed dissent, including Egypt's embattled Coptic Christian community.
Fast-forward to Monday, July 1, 2013. The corrupt, oppressive Muslim Brotherhood government had just faced what some were counting among the largest public protests in history. And here's our president. From the Guardian:


On Monday, the U.S. president, Barack Obama, indicated that Morsi had not yet lost his backing. "We don't make those decisions just by counting the number of heads in a protest march but we do make decisions based on whether or not a government is listening to the opposition, maintaining a free press, maintaining freedom of assembly, not using violence or intimidation, conducting fair and free elections," he said.


Wait, what? Do you not remember that you just waived those very same human rights requirements not even two months ago? How much could you possibly care about these basic liberties?  
Now fast-forward to today, July 3, when we learn that the administration does actually care. From CNN:


Officials have also warned the Egyptian military that a military coup [against the Muslim Brotherhood] would trigger U.S. legislation cutting off all U.S. aid, which totals about $1.5 billion per year.
For those keeping score at home, the Obama administration waives human rights requirements when the Muslim Brotherhood is in power but then threatens to impose those very same waived requirements when the military — our decades-long ally within Egypt — threatens to assert control.

The double standards of Obama just get bigger and bigger,along with his threat to arm the Islamist rebels in Syria.The Clowns are now running the Circus.

"Don't worry about the world coming to an end today. It's already tomorrow in Australia." - Charles Schulz

#58    Merc14

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Posted 03 July 2013 - 03:29 PM

View Postshaddow134, on 03 July 2013 - 03:08 PM, said:

The double standards of Obama just get bigger and bigger,along with his threat to arm the Islamist rebels in Syria.The Clowns are now running the Circus.

The idiots in this country gave this regime a second term and we are going to pay a huge price for it.  Our kids are going to inherit a broken and disfunctional country because we allowed theeft to take over during the last 3 generations.

You asked for Obamamerica, now you are going to get it.  Stand by for suck or as Pelosi says, "Embrace the suck".

#59    Dark_Grey

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Posted 03 July 2013 - 03:39 PM

View PostBlack Red Devil, on 02 July 2013 - 07:23 PM, said:

LOL and don't let anyone ever convince you otherwise.  :yes:  You wouldn't want to suffer such a trauma.  You don't want to wake up one day and realise the world is a naughty place with devious politicians who have caused the death of millions through improper interventionism just so they can get an edge on their opponents.

:tu: :yes:

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Locking people in a cage because they choose to exercise that right should be considered a crime against humanity


#60    and then

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Posted 03 July 2013 - 03:47 PM

View PostFrank Merton, on 03 July 2013 - 01:45 PM, said:

I have to say it does seem Morsi has lost legitimacy and should therefore resign to avoid bloodshed.  What has been posted as representing Egyptian opinion above though probably only represents that particular anti-Morsi individual's opinion.  There is little doubt he did win the election legitimatly (all elections have elements in them that can be questioned, but at the time international neutral opinion was that he had legitimately won).  Overturning legitimately elected officials is sometimes necessary when they exceed their own legitimacy, but sheesh it is asking for no end of trouble.
Trouble that seems avoidable only if they are willing to live as slaves to an oppressive Islamist ideology... some troubles are worth it.

  We've cast the world, we've set the stage,
  for what could be, the darkest age...




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