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Scientific evidence of "spirits"

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#16    Arbitran

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Posted 10 September 2012 - 11:21 PM

View PostSeeker79, on 10 September 2012 - 10:16 PM, said:

I was supposed to attend sheldrakes lecture this week, but to tied up.

That's a shame. His work on the development of plants is fascinating (though I admit it's not really my field; I work mostly in animals, particularly marine biology and the evolution and behavior of land animals).

Try to realize it's all within yourself / No-one else can make you change / And to see you're really only very small / And life flows on within you and without you. / We were talking about the love that's gone so cold and the people / Who gain the world and lose their soul / They don't know they can't see are you one of them? / When you've seen beyond yourself then you may find peace of mind / Is waiting there / And the time will come / when you see we're all one and life flows on within you and without you. ~ George Harrison

#17    White Crane Feather

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Posted 11 September 2012 - 06:59 AM

I ment if I take pictures this way, can I see the missing part?

"I wish neither to possess, Nor to be possessed. I no longer covet paradise, more important, I no longer fear hell. The medicine for my suffering I had within me from the very beginning, but I did not take it. My ailment came from within myself, But I did not observe it until this moment. Now I see that I will never find the light.  Unless, like the candle, I am my own fuel, Consuming myself. "
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#18    White Crane Feather

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Posted 11 September 2012 - 07:03 AM

View PostArbitran, on 10 September 2012 - 11:21 PM, said:



That's a shame. His work on the development of plants is fascinating (though I admit it's not really my field; I work mostly in animals, particularly marine biology and the evolution and behavior of land animals).
Crap.... You know I should just go. We have been corrisponding a bit. I want to meet him. let me think it over. I may have a report if I go.

Edit:
ehhhh I don't know. It's at the eslaine institute. It's sold as a workshop, but it seems like part of a book tour. I hate paying for stuff only to be sold stuff. I'll email him and see what he is going to be talking about?

Here is the info
http://webapp.esalen...workshops/11440

Edited by Seeker79, 11 September 2012 - 07:22 AM.

"I wish neither to possess, Nor to be possessed. I no longer covet paradise, more important, I no longer fear hell. The medicine for my suffering I had within me from the very beginning, but I did not take it. My ailment came from within myself, But I did not observe it until this moment. Now I see that I will never find the light.  Unless, like the candle, I am my own fuel, Consuming myself. "
Bruce Lee-

#19    Arbitran

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Posted 11 September 2012 - 07:21 AM

View PostSeeker79, on 11 September 2012 - 07:03 AM, said:

Crap.... You know I should just go. We have been corrisponding a bit. I want to meet him. let me think it over. I may have a report if I go.

That would be fascinating to hear about. I hope you do decide to go.

Try to realize it's all within yourself / No-one else can make you change / And to see you're really only very small / And life flows on within you and without you. / We were talking about the love that's gone so cold and the people / Who gain the world and lose their soul / They don't know they can't see are you one of them? / When you've seen beyond yourself then you may find peace of mind / Is waiting there / And the time will come / when you see we're all one and life flows on within you and without you. ~ George Harrison

#20    White Crane Feather

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Posted 11 September 2012 - 08:49 AM

Well on third thought, I need to get away from some carnage right now. the esalan institutes seems perfect.  Hot springs, trails, massages. I notice there is no one offering some things I can teach, it might be a good business ooertunity, I can write off the trip ;) Mabey make some contacts to let me run a workshop once a year.

If I can get my business covered and my kids to school on Friday, I'm outa here.

Edited by Seeker79, 11 September 2012 - 08:49 AM.

"I wish neither to possess, Nor to be possessed. I no longer covet paradise, more important, I no longer fear hell. The medicine for my suffering I had within me from the very beginning, but I did not take it. My ailment came from within myself, But I did not observe it until this moment. Now I see that I will never find the light.  Unless, like the candle, I am my own fuel, Consuming myself. "
Bruce Lee-

#21    GreenmansGod

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Posted 11 September 2012 - 10:45 AM

If you go Seeker maybe you can post what you learn?  Sometimes when you go to workshops you end up meeting people who know some interesting stuff other than the speaker.

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#22    Beckys_Mom

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Posted 11 September 2012 - 11:29 AM

Personally I doubt that there is any scientific evidence for spirits, even though part of me tends to think maybe they do exist, but getting hard evidence is tough in this day and age.

Years ago when I suffered from depression, I did see things or at least I thought I saw them.. I believed I saw spirits passing me by and being in the same room as me... I was convinced after a short while that I could see and at times feel spirits close by.   A year later, I had gotten back to my old self and the depression had left me, as I continued to stay in the norm ( busy, work, mothering ect )  I no longer saw the spirits, nor did I feel them close.  ... It was as if they disappeared as I was getting stronger and moving on with my life.   I have not seen or felt one near me ever since, so I peg what was happening to me at the time of my depression, was down to mind tricks... I honestly cannot explain too much on what it really was...but when I step away and look at the bigger picture, I only felt it and thought I was experiencing them when suffering with depression...I noticed that long after beating depression and getting back to normal  it was no more, it all went away, no more strange happenings or spirits.......is that weird?  Truth is I have no idea.

As much as I would love to find real scientific evidence for spirits, I cannot say I have heard of any....I now doubt there ever was  or ever will be.. Well I am a skeptic for many things..I cannot help that..I always think  ( in many cases ) that we have other explanations for these sort of things..  Part of me craves to believe, and part of me is sceptical !

Edited by Beckys_Mom, 11 September 2012 - 11:31 AM.

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#23    ZaraKitty

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Posted 11 September 2012 - 11:54 AM

I don't think we have the technology to identify something like spirits, they are on a different plane/dimension/universe to ours (IMO) and that kind of technology is just a dream.

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#24    FurthurBB

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Posted 11 September 2012 - 03:19 PM

View PostArbitran, on 10 September 2012 - 08:28 PM, said:

I've studied the topic to some extent, and I'm rather on the fence about the existence of "spirits". First of all, if someone could give a coherent definition of a "spirit" or "spiritual" (so many times when discussing this, people just throw around these terms, assuming that everyone will know what they're talking about...). Certainly so far, I have seen no convincing scientific evidence of the existence of "spirits".

However, in light of new theories in physics and biology (Sheldrake, Goswami, Bohm, Bell, Swanson, etc.), I find the possibility of unseen and undetected fields or matter-energy forms which science has yet to conclusively observe. For instance, as a biologist myself, I am intrigued by the theories of "morphogenetic fields" as interpreted by the prestigious English biologist Rupert Sheldrake; as a type of invisible, weakly-interacting physical field, which is proposed to organize the morphology and structure of cells, organs, limbs, entire organisms, social groups, and even mental constructs. Given the relative mystique of the process of morphogenesis (the development of the form of an organism; for example, that the cells in your fingers and your toes share the same genome, and yet are shaped differently), I am intrigued by his hypothesis.

Of course, genes are known to have some definite role in the development of particular body forms, and evolve and alter the morphology of a population of organisms over time through allelic frequency shifts and gene flow. This is obvious. And yet, I feel that it would be naive of us to assume that genes are the sole process involved in morphogenesis (as, again, if observed only on a cellular basis or molecular basis, your arm and your leg would be completely indistinguishable). But I digress. To return to spirits, I do not find it completely inconceivable that something like morphic fields or certain aspects of quantum mechanics could be considered "spirits", in some sense.

In particular I find the parallels which can be drawn to Eastern ideology (Hinduism, Buddhism, Taoism, Shinto) by these scientific theories are remarkable. It has been said that the Sheldrake-Goswami-Bohm model of morphic-quantum field theory is in some ways comparable to animistic or otherwise paranormal concepts, in that these morphic or quantum fields are claimed as having intrinsic properties of "memory", and in their proposed organization of mental processes, hypothetically could be thought of as having a sort of "consciousness" or inherent "life" to them. Concepts such as qi and prana likewise fail to escape my attention when thinking of such things. So might "spirits" or claimed "paranormal" phenomena be explainable through complex theories such as the Sheldrake-Goswami-Bohm field model, or Claude Swanson's "synchronized universe" hypothesis? Admittedly, I'm no expert in physics, but I evidently understand it well enough to think there could be something to these theories (the fact that eminent physicists such as David Bohm are involved is doubly impressive).

And as far as biology goes, it's fascinating at the very least; and potentially groundbreaking at best. It certainly would appear to explain a number of very enigmatic phenomena. So, any thoughts? And to return to the original premise of this thread (sorry for the slight deviation), does anyone claim to have scientific evidence of "spirits", or any alternative hypotheses, which might explain any number of the phenomena noted above? I will thank you all in advance for your assistance.

As far as the difference between different structures we already know that genes are not the only thing at work.  There are chemical signals, epigenetics, and environmental factors (the environment where the growth is occuring not the general environment).  If "spirits" are diffusible biochemical signals than I guess you might be on to something.


#25    White Crane Feather

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Posted 11 September 2012 - 06:34 PM

View PostDarkwind, on 11 September 2012 - 10:45 AM, said:

If you go Seeker maybe you can post what you learn?  Sometimes when you go to workshops you end up meeting people who know some interesting stuff other than the speaker.
Mr. Sheldrake actually just emailed me back, he such a graceful person, and confirmed its pretty much part of his book. But that's ok, the subject is what I have been arguing on these forums for several years now, and he is leading the charge. If any thing I will come back even more armed against our resident skeptics ;) ;)

Im trying to organize my business as we speak. If everything goes well, I'll go if only to start developing some contacts. I'll be doing a lot of meditation there, taking advantage of their hot springs, and baths etc.

The funny thing is I have done many solo wilderness trips deep into the ventana wilderness. There was a mountain in the distance that I was always drawn to, but I never made it to it. It turns out the institute is right on the other side. Got to follow this bread crumb. I will write it up if I can pull it off. I should know by the end of the day.

Edited by Seeker79, 11 September 2012 - 06:35 PM.

"I wish neither to possess, Nor to be possessed. I no longer covet paradise, more important, I no longer fear hell. The medicine for my suffering I had within me from the very beginning, but I did not take it. My ailment came from within myself, But I did not observe it until this moment. Now I see that I will never find the light.  Unless, like the candle, I am my own fuel, Consuming myself. "
Bruce Lee-

#26    White Crane Feather

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Posted 12 September 2012 - 01:30 AM

View PostSeeker79, on 11 September 2012 - 06:34 PM, said:


Mr. Sheldrake actually just emailed me back, he such a graceful person, and confirmed its pretty much part of his book. But that's ok, the subject is what I have been arguing on these forums for several years now, and he is leading the charge. If any thing I will come back even more armed against our resident skeptics ;) ;)

Im trying to organize my business as we speak. If everything goes well, I'll go if only to start developing some contacts. I'll be doing a lot of meditation there, taking advantage of their hot springs, and baths etc.

The funny thing is I have done many solo wilderness trips deep into the ventana wilderness. There was a mountain in the distance that I was always drawn to, but I never made it to it. It turns out the institute is right on the other side. Got to follow this bread crumb. I will write it up if I can pull it off. I should know by the end of the day.
I'm in.... My staff is covering my classes, and my niece is takeing my middle one to school. Score. It's going to be a nice weekend.

"I wish neither to possess, Nor to be possessed. I no longer covet paradise, more important, I no longer fear hell. The medicine for my suffering I had within me from the very beginning, but I did not take it. My ailment came from within myself, But I did not observe it until this moment. Now I see that I will never find the light.  Unless, like the candle, I am my own fuel, Consuming myself. "
Bruce Lee-

#27    The Id3al Experience

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Posted 12 September 2012 - 02:56 AM

View PostSeeker79, on 12 September 2012 - 01:30 AM, said:

I'm in.... My staff is covering my classes, and my niece is takeing my middle one to school. Score. It's going to be a nice weekend.

Enjoy Seeker my Friend :)

Regards,
Me

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#28    Arbitran

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Posted 12 September 2012 - 03:28 AM

View PostFurthurBB, on 11 September 2012 - 03:19 PM, said:


As far as the difference between different structures we already know that genes are not the only thing at work.  There are chemical signals, epigenetics, and environmental factors (the environment where the growth is occuring not the general environment).  If "spirits" are diffusible biochemical signals than I guess you might be on to something.

I am of course aware of these other factors. And I'm not suggesting that "spirits" are real or not. Just sort of posting a stream of thought, in some sense...

Try to realize it's all within yourself / No-one else can make you change / And to see you're really only very small / And life flows on within you and without you. / We were talking about the love that's gone so cold and the people / Who gain the world and lose their soul / They don't know they can't see are you one of them? / When you've seen beyond yourself then you may find peace of mind / Is waiting there / And the time will come / when you see we're all one and life flows on within you and without you. ~ George Harrison

#29    Beany

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Posted 12 September 2012 - 01:40 PM

I'm not scientist, so have no hope of ever presenting evidence. I'm like Hilander, while I've seen "ghosts" and other things, I don't believe every story I hear. I think there's more than one type of "spirit". The ghosts I've seen weren't like the TV or movie ghosts, but instead seemed to be intelligent & conscious & cognizant,more like people carrying on with their lives but in a different dimension.

I do ceremony & ritual with friends, and somewhere along the way, during ceremony, our consciousness shifts so that we becomes more aware of energy & the presence of unseen others in the room. I've thought about this, and wondered if maybe all of what we sense during an altered state of consciousness is always present, always all around us, but it is mostly during ceremony, when our consciousness shifts, that we sense or see them. In other words, nothing changes but us and our heightened awareness. I'm not seeing these entities and energies as ghosts, spirits, or necessarily anything sacred either, just beings living in a different dimension who choose to interact with us.


#30    fullywired

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Posted 14 September 2012 - 01:58 PM

View PostBeany, on 12 September 2012 - 01:40 PM, said:

I'm not scientist, so have no hope of ever presenting evidence. I'm like Hilander, while I've seen "ghosts" and other things, I don't believe every story I hear. I think there's more than one type of "spirit". The ghosts I've seen weren't like the TV or movie ghosts, but instead seemed to be intelligent & conscious & cognizant,more like people carrying on with their lives but in a different dimension.

I do ceremony & ritual with friends, and somewhere along the way, during ceremony, our consciousness shifts so that we becomes more aware of energy & the presence of unseen others in the room. I've thought about this, and wondered if maybe all of what we sense during an altered state of consciousness is always present, always all around us, but it is mostly during ceremony, when our consciousness shifts, that we sense or see them. In other words, nothing changes but us and our heightened awareness. I'm not seeing these entities and energies as ghosts, spirits, or necessarily anything sacred either, just beings living in a different dimension who choose to interact with us.

Were you smoking anything at the time??

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