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Red vs Blue is really Urban vs Rural values


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Poll: Urban/Rural (29 member(s) have cast votes)

Let us gauge the urban/rurural/suburban divide.

  1. I lean to the left and live in an urban area. (1 votes [3.45%])

    Percentage of vote: 3.45%

  2. I lean to the right and live in an urban area. (8 votes [27.59%])

    Percentage of vote: 27.59%

  3. I lean to the left and live in a rural area. (4 votes [13.79%])

    Percentage of vote: 13.79%

  4. I lean to the right and live in a rural area. (2 votes [6.90%])

    Percentage of vote: 6.90%

  5. I lean to the left and live in a suburban area. (4 votes [13.79%])

    Percentage of vote: 13.79%

  6. I lean to the right and live in a suburban area. (7 votes [24.14%])

    Percentage of vote: 24.14%

  7. Other; explain. (3 votes [10.34%])

    Percentage of vote: 10.34%

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#1    Jessica Christ

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Posted 26 April 2013 - 02:49 AM

For a better understanding of why people think as they do there is the concept that we are really enganged in urban vs rural values.

This explains much and perhaps why liberals focus on tolerance, in a city with so many groups we have to find a way to get along, and in the countryside with more homogeneity the concerns are more about preserving the self-reliance they have come to value.

The American past was one where you could claim a piece of land and make your own home but it was also dangerous and you also had to defend it with help being miles or days away. This frontier mindset is a deep part of those rural value even if we no longer have a frontier.

Also in our history was the fact that many groups flocked to the cities, for jobs, and just as a general global trend. Minorities were among these groups (African-Americans leaving the South for industrial cities in the North and Mexican-Americans leaving the countryside for the larger cities in the Southwest) and thus why minorities consistently vote in blocs to represent urban values.

What other examples could you offer?

Quote

The new political divide is a stark division between cities and what remains of the countryside. Not just some cities and some rural areas, either -- virtually every major city (100,000-plus population) in the United States of America has a different outlook from the less populous areas that are closest to it. The difference is no longer about where people live, it's about how people live: in spread-out, open, low-density privacy -- or amid rough-and-tumble, in-your-face population density and diverse communities that enforce a lower-common denominator of tolerance among inhabitants.

The voting data suggest that people don't make cities liberal -- cities make people liberal. Here, courtesy of Princeton's Robert Vanderbai, is an electoral map that captures the divisions:

The only major cities that voted Republican in the 2012 presidential election were Phoenix, Oklahoma City, Fort Worth, and Salt Lake City. With its dominant Mormon population, Mitt Romney was a lock in the Utah capital; Phoenix nearly voted for Obama. After that, the largest urban centers to tilt Republican included Wichita, Lincoln, Neb., and Boise.

The gap is so stark that some of America's bluest cities are located in its reddest states. Every one of Texas' major cities -- Austin, Dallas, Houston, and San Antonio -- voted Democratic in 2012, the second consecutive presidential election in which they've done so. Other red-state cities that tipped blue include Atlanta, Indianapolis, New Orleans, Birmingham, Tucson, Little Rock, and Charleston, S.C. -- ironically, the site of the first battle of the Civil War. In states like Nevada, the only blue districts are often also the only cities, like Reno and Las Vegas.

Awesome graphs and the rest of the article can be found here:

http://www.theatlant...america/265686/

The poll also includes a suburban option because I strongly suspect that many in suburban areas tend to hold more rural values instead of urban ones.


#2    Yamato

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Posted 26 April 2013 - 06:21 AM

Red v blue?   Neither do.

There is certainly correlation between red and rural, blue and urban; but your subject line oversells this.    It can be said that Republicans are old white males, independent of where they live.  Not the young black female democrats, surely.

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#3    Frank Merton

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Posted 26 April 2013 - 07:39 AM

The analysis of US political patterns is complicated and sadly subject to gross oversimplification and distortion, as we see in the OP.

The reality is that an issue-by-issue spectrum can be demonstrated, and the grosser manifestation that is forced by the fact that people have only one vote serves as a complicated averaging of individual views multiplied by their relative importance to that individual.  The end result is that election outcomes only somewhat reflect true public opinion (rendered even more irrelevant by the fact of large numbers of single-issue voters, large numbers of utterly ignorant voters who vote on things like name recognition, nominal party, family pressure, or liking the looks or sounds of the candidate).

That is largely why the founders of the country abandoned democracy and went for indirect elections and republican institutions and restricted the franchise to property owners with an education.  The ideology of democracy has over time upset most of these protections the founders built into what they set up, leading to a system nowadays where political parties (something the Constitution never envisioned and the original founders, especially Washington, very much feared) control nominations, generally controlled by the legal profession.

The irony, then, is that the democracy ideology has destroyed what democracy the system ever had.


#4    Wickian

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Posted 26 April 2013 - 09:00 AM

The vast majority of people vote because they feel strongly about a few key(to them anyway) issues.  If these issues leaned more liberal, then they would probably vote Democrats even if they agreed with Republicans in almost every other issue.


#5    spud the mackem

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Posted 26 April 2013 - 09:11 AM

We have Red doors and Blue doors in Liverpool U.K, I once lived in a Red door but parked my car outside a Blue door one night,and then had to pay a £30.00 parking ticket.And I was a neutral at the time.

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#6    Jessica Christ

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Posted 26 April 2013 - 12:47 PM

The electoral mapped linked in the OP has not been loading for me for some time now. Usure what is up with the Princeton University server but here it is as well as the other two from the article.

The first shows areas by population and alignment. The taller the area the more populous it is.

Posted Image

Quote

Electoral cartograms by University of Michigan physics professor Mark Newman show the power of Democratic counties based on population density. Spreading each vote out, his illustrations portray the hidden truth of the conventional electoral map, and why the much smaller number of dedicated blue counties is outmatching the more geographically numerous red counties.

Posted Image

Quote

But this also skirts the point. Cities are significant not just because of their physical locations, but their physical environment. This map of emerging "megaregions" in the U.S. matches up snugly with the blue spots on the electoral map:

Posted Image

Edited by Leave Britney alone!, 26 April 2013 - 12:49 PM.


#7    Kowalski

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Posted 26 April 2013 - 01:17 PM

This is good topic! :tu:

I think though, it tends to be a little more complicated than that though. I do know many people (even in Houston) who are pretty staunch Republicans.

But, I thought it interesting, that before the election, in the country I saw all these Romney signs and as you got closer to town you started to see Obama signs...I should also add that this town has a high welfare rate too... :whistle:


#8    Jessica Christ

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Posted 26 April 2013 - 01:18 PM

View PostFrank Merton, on 26 April 2013 - 07:39 AM, said:

The analysis of US political patterns is complicated and sadly subject to gross oversimplification and distortion, as we see in the OP.

The reality is that an issue-by-issue spectrum can be demonstrated, and the grosser manifestation that is forced by the fact that people have only one vote serves as a complicated averaging of individual views multiplied by their relative importance to that individual.  The end result is that election outcomes only somewhat reflect true public opinion (rendered even more irrelevant by the fact of large numbers of single-issue voters, large numbers of utterly ignorant voters who vote on things like name recognition, nominal party, family pressure, or liking the looks or sounds of the candidate).

That is largely why the founders of the country abandoned democracy and went for indirect elections and republican institutions and restricted the franchise to property owners with an education.  The ideology of democracy has over time upset most of these protections the founders built into what they set up, leading to a system nowadays where political parties (something the Constitution never envisioned and the original founders, especially Washington, very much feared) control nominations, generally controlled by the legal profession.

The irony, then, is that the democracy ideology has destroyed what democracy the system ever had.

I prefer the narrative presented in The Atlantic article. Not only does it make your claim of "everyone only has one vote" irrelevant since we have more than one vote in reality, we vote for issues and candidates on the local, state, and federal level, we just don't vote for a president once and go home, we can vote for senators and congressmen twice, at the state and federal level, and an array of other initiatives and propositions at the local (various municipal boards and bodies governing everything from school districts to water systems) and the state level. the article also correlates various measures as passing or failing with the population bases of our nation.

Below is the final graph in that article showing gay rights and we can instantly see the areas with greater concentrations or urban areas have extended more rights to those minority groups (LGBTQ). That does not happen by just voting once and letting the president decide what part of the country gets what laws passed on the state level. Also each of those issues if referendums are voted on a case-by-case basis, if not the state legislature has to do so.

Posted Image

Below are more issues in bold that are decided on whether the area is more urban or rural.

Quote

In due course, these populous bastions of urban liberalism have helped spur state legislation and court rulings to create new laws, such as those permitting same sex marriage, that are often in direct conflict with federal laws and with the majority of fellow state counties. These measures are not always controversial -- such as Missouri's 2010 Prop B, regulating dog breeding shows -- but the divisions are often stark: cities vs. everywhere else. Meanwhile, the states with constitutional amendments banning gay marriage are often among the least densely populated in the country, such as South Dakota and Idaho.

On Election Day, voters in 37 states weighed in on 174 ballot measures, according to the National Conference of State Legislatures, on matters ranging from gambling to marijuana to the death penalty. It was the second-highest number ever, and this cycle also saw a definitive jump in votes on whether to overturn recently passed legislation, including Obamacare and gay marriage. These state laws are the foundation for potential future federal laws, but the sudden, radical divergence between laws from state to state is leading to a dizzying decentralization, with laws of varying importance in varying directions in varying states checkering the United States. This pre-election graphic demonstrates the complexity of the legal environment forsame-sex unions alone across America:

After this year's election, roughly half of the 50 states allow the practice of one, more, or all of the following: same-sex marriage, marijuana use or assisted suicide. Voters in Alabama, Missouri, Montana, and Wyoming passed largely symbolic laws that would prohibit Obamacare, effectively another lifestyle law. Meanwhile, all of the states that voted against Obamacare also ban both same-sex marriage and marijuana use. In Montana, the government won't help insure your health, but it will assist you in killing yourself. Many Americans live in states where they are forced to buy health insurance but are not allowed to end their own lives or marry the person they love.

The Atlantic article also offers assurance that we won't be having a civil war or any part of our nation secede just because a few ultra-conservative hardliners want to keep us in the 1950s.

They just don't have any clear line that can be drawn across the nation that neatly divides us from them as they did in the Civil War. Their values are mostly voted on in rural areas which are all next to urban areas, which might have less space but it is more dense compared to their wide open spaces which are less populated. There is a balance but the lines are all over the place. I just can't see the countryside coming up in arms against the cities.

Their calls for second amendment solutions do not have to be taken with any anxiety, instead they should be seen as what they are, the dying whimpers of a party that now has to share power but in the future it will be the urban areas which keep adding to their population, where birth rates are higher, and millions of tiny little blue voters will dot the land.

Quote

Federalism's dance is America's great helix, and in due course a new national consensus will tend to emerge. But things might get more divided before they get better. Immediately after the election, more than a 100,000 citizens in more than 20 states signed petitions on the White House website requesting to secede from the nation.
That has spurred some pundits to worry about a new splintering like the one 150 years ago and to bemoan, as they do each election year, how the country is growing more divided. But the new divisions don't break down neatly enough between states -- as opposed to within them -- to make the idea of any given state pulling out of the union anything more than minority grousing. Robert Forbes, an antebellum history professor at the University of Connecticut, says fears of a divided America are overblown.
"Compared to the United States of 1860," Forbes says, "the America of 2012 is more like the United Colors of Benetton."

Finally the author of the article compiles information from various scholars which is always welcomed for a more detailed analysis of any subject.

Edited by Leave Britney alone!, 26 April 2013 - 01:46 PM.


#9    Jessica Christ

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Posted 26 April 2013 - 01:21 PM

View PostKowalski, on 26 April 2013 - 01:17 PM, said:

This is good topic! :tu:

I think though, it tends to be a little more complicated than that though. I do know many people (even in Houston) who are pretty staunch Republicans.

But, I thought it interesting, that before the election, in the country I saw all these Romney signs and as you got closer to town you started to see Obama signs...I should also add that this town has a high welfare rate too... :whistle:

My city, one away from yours, is also divided between North and South sides, Republicans vs Democrats, but taken fully into account we have ten city council districts and Districts 1-7 vote Democrat while districts 8-10 vote Republican. What they have in their favor is that Republicans consistenly vote, on every issue, while Democrats usually only fire up their base on bigger issues, so overall, especially on local issues, it seems an equal number of voters come out.


#10    OverSword

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Posted 26 April 2013 - 03:13 PM

View PostKowalski, on 26 April 2013 - 01:17 PM, said:

This is good topic! :tu:

I think though, it tends to be a little more complicated than that though. I do know many people (even in Houston) who are pretty staunch Republicans.

But, I thought it interesting, that before the election, in the country I saw all these Romney signs and as you got closer to town you started to see Obama signs...I should also add that this town has a high welfare rate too... :whistle:
I was watching an interview with a local native author named Sherman Alexie and he said that although by and large Indian values are more in alignment with republicans, (natives tend to be for wars, everyone owns a gun, pro-life etc..) they vote democratic because democrats will do more for them.  He also very cynically points out with thinly vieled contempt (it seems like) that liberal white people just love indians, to the point that they wish they were indians despite they have no idea who indians really are.

edit to add, maybe not contempt, more like amusement.

http://www.amazon.co...9299&sr=8-2-ent Sherman Alexie's amazon page

Edited by OverSword, 26 April 2013 - 03:15 PM.


#11    OverSword

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Posted 26 April 2013 - 07:45 PM

Is it surprising that most respondents are on the right?


#12    tapirmusic

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Posted 26 April 2013 - 10:12 PM

View PostLeave Britney alone!, on 26 April 2013 - 01:18 PM, said:

Their calls for second amendment solutions do not have to be taken with any anxiety, instead they should be seen as what they are, the dying whimpers of a party that now has to share power but in the future it will be the urban areas which keep adding to their population, where birth rates are higher, and millions of tiny little blue voters will dot the land.

Kid, instead of writing here, you should be writing for Huffpo.

Although if you did your readership numbers would decline.


#13    Glorfindel

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Posted 27 April 2013 - 01:29 AM

I hit "other, explain". I guess I would be a "libertarian" at this point, formerly liberal. The left needs to learn that their feelings on issues will never replace logic, practicality and cold hard facts. Most of their policies have outright failed. Compared to more rural areas, cities these days have far more poverty, higher crime rates and lower average test scores in primary and secondary education. They need to realize that they have failed, overall. As for hardcore conservatives, well they'd probably tell me to "speak english" for using a word thats more than two syllables. So all in all I guess I'm a "centrist", both sides are losing it.


#14    Jeremiah65

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Posted 27 April 2013 - 05:52 PM

Red vs Blue...left vs right...Urban vs Rural...Republican vs Democrat...

Two wings of the same bird of prey...

Posted Image

Terrible...

The polarization of this nation shall be it's undoing.

When people vote against common sense we have all lost.

I am a Libertarian.  Not an Ayn Rand Libertarian...but a believer and follower of the Philosophy of Freedom.

I do not need a Nanny to tell me how to live...what I can or cannot do with my body...my beliefs or my property.  As long as my freedom does not impede upon the freedom of another...what I choose to do or how I choose to live is no one's business.  I will not cross into my neighbors yard and tell him how to live and I expect the same in return.

Both main parties are far too interested in control and regulation.

The Dems think they can legislate "good will toward man" with politically correct speech, gun regulations and an over powering police presence (Nanny/Police state).

The Republicans, while they tout that they are for small Gov, Liberty and the Constitution...think they can legislate morality...saying who or what you can marry...what you can and cannot put in or remove from your body.  Their version of Freedom...like the Democrats...has far too many restrictions that delve into people's personal lives.

The result is "both" parties end up creating bureaucracy to carry out and "enforce" their world views.  I personally feel they are both way off the mark.

The Dem's would create legislation and taxation that strangles and paralyzes business...the Repubs would allow corporations to dump toxins anywhere they choose if it makes a dollar.

Madness...complete and utter madness.  The only path forward is personal freedom and responsibility...the only balance is common sense...which sadly is in short supply...I will choose Liberty...I will choose freewill.  The party that best affords this...in my opinion...are the Libertarians.

Edited by Jeremiah65, 27 April 2013 - 05:55 PM.

"Liberty means responsibility.  That is why most men dread it."  George Bernard Shaw
"I would rather be exposed to the inconveniences attending too much liberty than to those attending too small a degree of it."  Thomas Jefferson

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#15    Frank Merton

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Posted 27 April 2013 - 06:17 PM

I think a Constitutional Convention is needed calling for at-large primaries, top two vote getters standing against each other, no political parties at all.  Also, longer but only one-term offices (no incumbencies).  All office holders subject to removal three ways; impeachment if they are convicted of a crime, recall as is now the case in many areas, and ostracism -- giving in effect the whole nation the ability to recall local figures (although of course without the banishment).  A rule banning members of the legal profession would also help, and some restriction of the franchise to people with an education and some resources -- maybe only allow people who pay in more than they take out to vote, government employees and retirees excepted.

A special independent board is needed to handle the nation's money, decide what taxes to collect, what money to borrow, and so on, as independent of politics as is the military or the judiciary.  Then whenever Congress passed a spending bill, this board would announce corresponding tax increases.

Of course, what do I know, I'm a foreigner.  Trouble is if the US economy or political entity collapses, it ain't gonna do me any good either.





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