81 replies to this topic

[Karlis]

Tiggs, on 28 May 2012 - 06:25 PM, said:

No darkness at Noon, anyway.

I'm not debating that a Lunar eclipse could cause a darkness at noon. I'm confirming that one took place at the date that Havocwing said one did.

OK, point taken.But "That" type of eclipse would have no bearing on the darkness falling upon Jerusalem when Jesus was crucified. Unless you are making a point that I have failed to see?

[spud the mackem]

Karlis, on 28 May 2012 - 05:01 PM, said:

AsI posted earlier, all the events were "supranatural events" -- aka, out-of-the-ordinary-events. Meaning to say, God brought supranatural events to pass. Of course, that is a matter of faith, if one chooses to accept that view.

  Sorry Karlis mate,but I dont believe in that sort of Supernatural event,but everyone is entitled to their own beliefs,and if thats acceptable to you,fair enough..

[Metal Head]

If true it's just more evidence of astrological significance which is all throughout the bible rather than proving anything to do with an actual person.

[TheMcGuffin]

It is true that Pontius Pilate was governor of Judea from 26-36 AD, having been appointed to that office by the emperor Tiberius, so the execution Jesus has to be sometime during that ten-year period.  This was an unusually long term in office since most Roman goverors served 1-3 years.

http://formerthings.com/pontius.htm

Edited by TheMcGuffin, 28 May 2012 - 07:12 PM.

[questionmark]

TheMcGuffin, on 28 May 2012 - 06:55 PM, said:

It is true that Pontius Pilate was governor of Judea from 26-36 AD, having been appointed to that office by the emperor Tiberius, so the execution Jesus has to be sometime during that ten-year period.

http://formerthings.com/pontius.htm

H

he was a Prefect, which means that he came under the Governor of Syria, which is not quite the same. And calling him a governor has only lead to historians assuming he never existed, as there was no governor of Judea but Judea a subdivision of the Syrian province.

[TheMcGuffin]

questionmark, on 28 May 2012 - 07:11 PM, said:

H

he was a Prefect, which means that he came under the Governor of Syria, which is not quite the same. And calling him a governor has only lead to historians assuming he never existed, as there was no governor of Judea but Judea a subdivision of the Syrian province.

In this case, there was no governor of Syria during Pilate's first six years in office, since the post was vacant.

And if it is true that John the Baptist began his preaching in 15th year of the emperor Tiberius (28 AD), then the execution of Jesus had to have ocurred after that time.

http://www.earlychri...actspilate.html

As to whether Pilate was dismissed, retired or was just replaced with the change of emperors, I'm not sure which is true.

Edited by TheMcGuffin, 28 May 2012 - 07:29 PM.

[questionmark]

TheMcGuffin, on 28 May 2012 - 07:24 PM, said:

In this case, there was no governor of Syria during Pilate's first six years in office, since the post was vacant.

Correct, which does not mean that Pilatus got "promoted". There were another dozen or so prefects in the Syrian province, it just meant that instead of reporting to Antioch he had to report to the next higher authority. In about 300 AD the prefects were abolished and there was only the Syrian governor responsible for the Syria-Palestine area.

[TheMcGuffin]

questionmark, on 28 May 2012 - 07:29 PM, said:

Correct, which does not mean that Pilatus got "promoted". There were another dozen or so prefects in the Syrian province, it just meant that instead of reporting to Antioch he had to report to the next higher authority. In about 300 AD the prefects were abolished and there was only the Syrian governor responsible for the Syria-Palestine area.

Officially he had the military title of prefect, in command of auxiliary troops instead of legions, because he was of euestrian rather than senatorial or consular rank, although quite of few sources do still call him a provincial governor, even if only of a small, third-rank province.  He was even allowed to issue his own coins.

http://ecole.evansvi...les/pilate.html

[questionmark]

TheMcGuffin, on 28 May 2012 - 07:45 PM, said:

Officially he had the military title of prefect, in command of auxiliary troops instead of legions, because he was of euestrian rather than senatorial or consular rank, although quite of few sources do still call him a provincial governor, even if only of a small, third-rank province.  He was even allowed to issue his own coins.

http://ecole.evansvi...les/pilate.html

Any Roman military commander could issue coins, provided he adhered to the established standards of size and weights to pay his people.That was not a very special privilege.

The "sources" you quote a generally not contemporary with the happenings in Palestine. 60 years later somebody insisted in calling Pilatus a "governor"or ducem instead of prefectus, and mostly people related to the church. That stuck, to the point that, once we understood Roman history through their own records instead of through the gospel, historians were convinced he never existed. And nobody would have bothered were it not because he sponsored some modifications to the arena in Cesarea Maritima where a plaque was unearthed that reads: sponsored by Pontius Pilatus. After a long search it was discovered that he was a subaltern of the Syrian governor.

Having said all that, the other aspect is that he probably had nothing to do personally with the dead of JC and that it was some cohort leader stationed in J'lem who decided to nail him to the cross. Pilatus' place of work was in Ceasarea Maritima, about 50 miles away and there was no sound reason for him to be in J'lem during passover when the tempers were boiling high.

In any case, Mr. Pilatus was a very little and not quite bright light who hardly finds a mention in the Roman annals of the time

[Tiggs]

Karlis, on 28 May 2012 - 06:29 PM, said:

OK, point taken.But "That" type of eclipse would have no bearing on the darkness falling upon Jerusalem when Jesus was crucified. Unless you are making a point that I have failed to see?

Bear in mind that I'm still agnostic as to whether Jesus even historically existed.

However. I have seen arguments made that the Sixth Hour (which has been translated as Noon in today's text's) would equally make sense as being Midnight.

Luke 23:44-45 could be translated as:
It was now about the sixth hour, and there was darkness over the whole land until the ninth hour, for the sun had stopped shining. And the curtain of the temple was torn in two.

Matthew 27:45:
But from the sixth hour there was darkness over the whole land until the ninth hour.

Mark 15:43
At the sixth hour darkness came over the whole land until the ninth hour.

No darkness in John, of course.

The argument, essentially, is that the beginning of Luke 45 "for the sun had stopped shining" was a marginal gloss.

In which case - the light of the moon being eclipsed would result in a darkness over the entire land.

I don't particularly have any opinion either way. I'm just reporting the position for further discussion.

[UsefulSoul]

I hate that this may seem like a silly question, but did the death of Jesus make the earthquake or did the earthquake kill Jesus?

[Archimedes]

UsefulSoul, on 28 May 2012 - 09:23 PM, said:

I hate that this may seem like a silly question, but did the death of Jesus make the earthquake or did the earthquake kill Jesus?

According to the Gospel of Matthew, the earthquake happened after Jesus "gave up his spirit"

The other Gospels don't mention any earthquake coinciding with the death of Jesus.

Edited by Archimedes, 28 May 2012 - 11:00 PM.

[DieChecker]

Tiggs, on 28 May 2012 - 08:24 PM, said:

Bear in mind that I'm still agnostic as to whether Jesus even historically existed.

However. I have seen arguments made that the Sixth Hour (which has been translated as Noon in today's text's) would equally make sense as being Midnight.

Luke 23:44-45 could be translated as:
It was now about the sixth hour, and there was darkness over the whole land until the ninth hour, for the sun had stopped shining. And the curtain of the temple was torn in two.

Matthew 27:45:
But from the sixth hour there was darkness over the whole land until the ninth hour.

Mark 15:43
At the sixth hour darkness came over the whole land until the ninth hour.

No darkness in John, of course.

The argument, essentially, is that the beginning of Luke 45 "for the sun had stopped shining" was a marginal gloss.

In which case - the light of the moon being eclipsed would result in a darkness over the entire land.

I don't particularly have any opinion either way. I'm just reporting the position for further discussion.

I'm not a Hebrew scholar, but I believe they considered nightfall before the Sabboth to be the end of any type of work, even carrying food or firewood or water was forbidden. So, I very much doubt that they would be out after dark, in the very middle of the night, taking down Crucified criminals. The whole idea of leg breaking them was to get them dead before dusk.

[Tiggs]

DieChecker, on 29 May 2012 - 12:49 AM, said:

I'm not a Hebrew scholar, but I believe they considered nightfall before the Sabboth to be the end of any type of work, even carrying food or firewood or water was forbidden. So, I very much doubt that they would be out after dark, in the very middle of the night, taking down Crucified criminals. The whole idea of leg breaking them was to get them dead before dusk.

The Jewish day starts at sunset - hence what we'd consider to be the night before is the start of their Sabbath.

[Devilanse]

The Earthquake was horizontal that was when He went down into hell to preach to the fallen angels and liberate all the Patriarches,Prophets and all who died which had Faith in Him as the Saviour. Paradise was a place in Hell where the Saints were kept until the Crucifixtion, they were comforted; Satan could not hurt them. You can read about Paradise in Luke 16 about the Lazarus went to Abrahams Bosom (Paradise)  and the Rich man (the Rich man went to hell) Many people say this is a parable but it is  an actual story they are real people. Jesus Christ came to die to pay humanitys sin debt which was owed to the Father and it demanded death.