104 replies to this topic

[AsteroidX]

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If conservatives would be ok with people being different, with the idea that not everyone needs to dislike people who want different lives than they do it would be fine, but conservatives are actively working to prevent these things, they are actively working to keep people whom they disagree with from having rights and privileges...this is what I want to understand.

Thats what we are worried about. Youve gotten several well thought out answers and responses from conservatives as well. The choice of words you are using there is saying YOU YOU YOU !!.....


There is no specific thing you are being kept from that I am aware of so how is one to respond to that ? But to possibly feel attacked. And you didnt leave an opportunity to address a specific greivance ? Conservatives actively working to make you do things ? Like what ?

Thats a slippery slope with gun control on the table. And a Liberal POTUS and Congress.

[bacca]

AsteroidX, on 31 January 2013 - 01:42 AM, said:

Thats what we are worried about. Youve gotten several well thought out answers and responses from conservatives as well. The choice of words you are using there is saying YOU YOU YOU !!.....


There is no specific thing you are being kept from that I am aware of so how is one to respond to that ? But to possibly feel attacked. And you didnt leave an opportunity to address a specific greivance ? Conservatives actively working to make you do things ? Like what ?

Thats a slippery slope with gun control on the table. And a Liberal POTUS and Congress.

Ok I live in a crazy conservative area, last year they voted for a state constitutional amendment making marriage between a man and women, they do christian walks in 'bad' areas to try and save the poor people from themselves and the bad lifestyles that they live, people here think that church is the be all end all, and if you don't agree with them then you are going to hell, I mean these to be literal conversations with people, I get frustrated because I can't see how anyone's life choices such as the one's i mentioned are any one elses business...I would love to move away from this place but at the moment can't so i'm stuck (that is my pity party ) I would prefer to understand the reasoning rather than just get irritated all the time...make sense?

[MiskatonicGrad]

The biggest problem I see with liberals is all of that stuff you mentioned they think the goverment needs to fix or make better. To do that requiers more goverment control of our lives, more laws, more rules, more oversite, and more taxes to pay for it. As a conservative leaning anarco-capitalist I have huge problems with this. like your one quote says " be careful what you wish for" What is going to happen when we have the little liberal paradise and then a goverment comes to power that dosen't have it's citizens best intrest at heart and all the control the liberals are crying that we need. the way I see it the less control the goverment has on how I think, what I do the better off I am.

[bacca]

MiskatonicGrad, on 31 January 2013 - 01:57 AM, said:

The biggest problem I see with liberals is all of that stuff you mentioned they think the goverment needs to fix or make better. To do that requiers more goverment control of our lives, more laws, more rules, more oversite, and more taxes to pay for it. As a conservative leaning anarco-capitalist I have huge problems with this. like your one quote says " be careful what you wish for" What is going to happen when we have the little liberal paradise and then a goverment comes to power that dosen't have it's citizens best intrest at heart and all the control the liberals are crying that we need. the way I see it the less control the goverment has on how I think, what I do the better off I am.

How is all the stuff adding government control exactly? Staying out of women's medical decisions and admitting that gay marriage is in fact a civil rights issue, legalizing marijuana would save the government money, and make it some on taxes etc...so which issue is so costly? feeding people? are you really ok with not? the alternative to that wouldn't be pretty...taking government out of these issues is less control, not more

[AsteroidX]

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Ok I live in a crazy conservative area

I dont know if this will help but Im sure theres quite a few Conservatives living in New York that feel the same as you do about now. I can only say my towm is Liberal and the rural area is Conservative. We have a large gay/lesbian population and elderly population among other groups.. Somehow we all seem to get along despite having a very diverse community. Perhaps it is that diversity that helps us be more empathetic of others views.

Stay strong I imagine thats not an easy thing to deal with. But your not gonna change a communities values you can only strive to find a community that better meets your own needs.

[Jeremiah65]

As far as the "marriage" amendment...big deal.  The Christians and other religious groups feel they own the word...so let them have it.  There is nothing to say that same sex couples cannot have the same legal rights and benefits but under another name...call it whatever...social union...for example.  As long as they get fair and equal rights, it should be good enough.  But for some, it IS NOT good enough...they want to say they are "married" like the Christian's and religious people are...so they fight over a title...a name, a word.  That is kinda stupid to me.  Let the religions keep their heterosexual titles and let the same sex couples get a new word...win-win.

Social Conservatives believe that if you follow a strict code of conduct, you eliminate or greatly reduce the bad things that happen.  Some will say it is "punishment" from whatever God they believe in...but that's kinda hooey.  Bad things happen to good people all the time...a strict code of conduct just shackles the spirit and the creative force...it does not "protect" anyone from anything.

The problem with a lot of the mainstream socially conservative Republicans is that they proclaim that they are for smaller Government but create more and more legislation and law that requires more and more "employees" to enforce.  that IS NOT smaller Gov...it is still big Gov...just a different kind.

Neither party is really out for the best interest of the common, average person...the two party paradigm is a trick...smoke and mirrors.  Left, right...red, blue...all a joke on the people that buy into it.



Political ideology is different.  I always remind people that there are many different political parties in this country.  maybe it is time to do some research and actually support the one that is closest to your own beliefs.  I did that several years ago and discovered I am a Libertarian to the bone...you might be suprprised what you discover about yourself in your research into political ideology and philosophy.

[Tiggs]

Jeremiah65, on 31 January 2013 - 01:39 AM, said:

I just wanted to add this.

Many times, Liberals come off a little over the top.  They want to tell other people how to live, what to eat, how to raise their children...

If political parties didn't have opinions on how other people should live, then they wouldn't be a political party.

And, yes. That also includes the Libertarians, both Left and Right.

AsteroidX, on 31 January 2013 - 01:42 AM, said:

Thats a slippery slope with gun control on the table. And a Liberal POTUS and Congress.

A Republican majority House of Representatives counts as a Liberal Congress these days?

Edited by Tiggs, 31 January 2013 - 02:36 AM.

[F3SS]

bacca, on 31 January 2013 - 01:24 AM, said:

It isn't a pity party it is a question about why would a group of people actively work to prevent others from having things that do not effect them...Social issues should not have any place in politics, but they do, so there are people who are against everything I mentioned, they will belittle, and vilify anyone who believes the above mentioned.

Mm hmm. Social issues belong in politics for probably many reasons. However, the social issues we want need to be paid for, by us. It's not that people are against you wants they just want them to be controlled fiscally above all.

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If conservatives would be ok with people being different, with the idea that not everyone needs to dislike people who want different lives than they do it would be fine,

Conservatives are plenty ok with people being different. The idea that everyone needs to like to pay for what you want isn't going to happen.

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but conservatives are actively working to prevent these things, they are actively working to keep people whom they disagree with from having rights and privileges...

Sounds just like liberals on gun control. You're going to find things like that on both sides of the isle.

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this is what I want to understand.

You understand what you want. I don't think you're here to change your mind. I think you're here to show liberalism in a brighter light albeit with a woe-is-me tone. There is a dark side to liberalism though you are probably naively unaware. That is that liberalism always generates the exact opposite of its stated intent. Liberal ran cities are drenched in debt and violence and crime and unemployment and people who can't live without the government. Like Detroit.

[AsteroidX]

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A Republican majority House of Representatives counts as a Liberal Congress these days?

I guess I meant to say Senate. Thanks for pointing that out. 2/3 liberal.

Edited by AsteroidX, 31 January 2013 - 02:42 AM.

[Tiggs]

AsteroidX, on 31 January 2013 - 02:42 AM, said:

I guess I meant to say Senate. Thanks for pointing that out. 2/3 liberal.

Right. Which means that any legislation that does pass will be necessarily bipartisan.

[AquilaChrysaetos]

bacca, on 30 January 2013 - 11:49 PM, said:

Why is being liberal a bad thing? When did caring about something bigger then oneself become something to be made fun of? Why did believing that all Americans both gay and straight should have the same equal rights become such a problem for people? How do people justify preventing gay marriage when it has nothing to do with them? What is wrong with caring that my great grand kids can breath clean air and drink clean water? Is waiting to help the planet really something that should be put off? Why did this become something that can wait to be fixed? And even if it is only a slight possibility that we could help, shouldn't we try? Why am I the bad guy because I feel that guns are not always the best option? Is there not something to be said about the idea that some people shouldn't have guns? Why is it that because I like knowing that there are kids eating tonight because they have food stamps I am somehow a person that likes handouts? What is wrong with helping people who need help? Why should anyone feel ashamed because they needed help and asked for it? Why should I feel bad about needing healthcare and being happy that finally I'll be able to get some? Why are we filling our jails with people on marijuana charges and not legalizing it nationwide? Where is the data that it is harmful? Would resources not be better spent on something else? Why am I wrong to not want any religion in my child’s school? Why do some people seem to think that bringing religious beliefs into schools is fair to students who don't share the beliefs? Should public schools not care about all students? Why do some people feel so superior that what they believe is more important than the rights of other people? Who came up with the idea that it was a good thing to try and tell women what they can and can't do in their doctors office with their own bodies? And why is this still an issue that anyone thinks they have a say in? So why is being liberal a bad thing? Why is caring about other people, ALL other people and not just those that fit into a specific group not a good thing? Is it so hard to except that there are ideas, views and beliefs that are different and not harmful? Why can't some people seem to understand that being different and not trying to make everyone believe the same thing, live the same way and want the same things does not make them bad?

The sad thing is, I agree with just about everything you said and am also a Christian. Where as most people that oppose everything you said call themselves Christians as well. So therefore I'm called an evil blasphemying heretic and the antichrist for wanting to help people instead of increasing guns, capitalism (aka feed the rich and **** the poor), hatred toward certain groups (primarily homosexuals), and preventing government enforced religion. Just seems what Jesus Christ would do a little more than the other to me...

Thus the very reason for my absolute hatred for politics...

[Likely Guy]

The left wingers and the right wingers... that's whose fault it is?

The most extreme of both of those wings are the most vicious and vocal. I'd suggest that 80% of the rest of the people watch it like a tennis match until either group can touch a nerve that's near and dear to someone in the majority, hoping that it will sway them to their side.

The U.S., in my humble opinion (Canadian here, don't shoot me), would do well to rein in their 'dogs of war' on both aisles of the government (as well as the media, especially the media) and let the reasonable people address the problems like adults.

Perhaps the only way to solve this is for the parties to kick out the extremists, or just let them have the label and form a Centrist Coalition.

But what do I know? In Canada, our formative motto was 'Peace, Order and Good Government'. By the way, I feel pretty safe in commenting because this isn't in the 'US Politics' thread.

Edited by Likely Guy, 31 January 2013 - 02:57 AM.

[Purifier]

bacca, on 31 January 2013 - 01:51 AM, said:

Ok I live in a crazy conservative area, last year they voted for a state constitutional amendment making marriage between a man and women, they do christian walks in 'bad' areas to try and save the poor people from themselves and the bad lifestyles that they live, people here think that church is the be all end all, and if you don't agree with them then you are going to hell, I mean these to be literal conversations with people, I get frustrated because I can't see how anyone's life choices such as the one's i mentioned are any one elses business...I would love to move away from this place but at the moment can't so i'm stuck (that is my pity party ) I would prefer to understand the reasoning rather than just get irritated all the time...make sense?

Those individuals are not really true conservatives. They conduct rightwing interventionism by rule of organized religion, although they adopt some conservatism, the few conservative ideas which usually suits their religous ideas, they pay very little attention to most of the political ideas of conservatism.; in other words they cheery pick. Of course there are those on the left who do the same thing...intervene, but mostly without religious rule. These type of individuals you haft to watch out for, their main purpose is about total control over others.

When it comes down to interventionism, there is a fine line between wanting to control or just wanting to simply help. Both sides have been guilty of this.

[CrimsonKing]

bacca, on 30 January 2013 - 11:49 PM, said:

Why is being liberal a bad thing? When did caring about something bigger then oneself become something to be made fun of? Why did believing that all Americans both gay and straight should have the same equal rights become such a problem for people? How do people justify preventing gay marriage when it has nothing to do with them? What is wrong with caring that my great grand kids can breath clean air and drink clean water? Is waiting to help the planet really something that should be put off? Why did this become something that can wait to be fixed? And even if it is only a slight possibility that we could help, shouldn't we try? Why am I the bad guy because I feel that guns are not always the best option? Is there not something to be said about the idea that some people shouldn't have guns? Why is it that because I like knowing that there are kids eating tonight because they have food stamps I am somehow a person that likes handouts? What is wrong with helping people who need help? Why should anyone feel ashamed because they needed help and asked for it? Why should I feel bad about needing healthcare and being happy that finally I'll be able to get some? Why are we filling our jails with people on marijuana charges and not legalizing it nationwide? Where is the data that it is harmful? Would resources not be better spent on something else? Why am I wrong to not want any religion in my child’s school? Why do some people seem to think that bringing religious beliefs into schools is fair to students who don't share the beliefs? Should public schools not care about all students? Why do some people feel so superior that what they believe is more important than the rights of other people? Who came up with the idea that it was a good thing to try and tell women what they can and can't do in their doctors office with their own bodies? And why is this still an issue that anyone thinks they have a say in? So why is being liberal a bad thing? Why is caring about other people, ALL other people and not just those that fit into a specific group not a good thing? Is it so hard to except that there are ideas, views and beliefs that are different and not harmful? Why can't some people seem to understand that being different and not trying to make everyone believe the same thing, live the same way and want the same things does not make them bad?

I am neither repub or dem i care not about the ideas you have presented here one way or the other as long as it doesnt cross the line between right and wrong,granted im not a religious person so my right and wrongs have nothing to do with personal decisions as who you marry,or what you want to smoke.You cross the line if you have no job and have not been trying to get one but you are spitting kids out one after another just to get a free check that comes out of my taxes!Yes this does happen i have heard some say it out of there own mouths!It crosses the line  when i shouldnt have guns because some idiot has a mental health issue or when there are way more cases of gun violence by illegal guns in big cities by gang violence thats to non pc to talk about with the media,and it crosses the line when my tax dollars are given to other countries that despise us without anything in return!We are broke people wake the **** up we send disaster relief to other countries that is borrowed money!We have actual homeless families in this country,yet we can borrow billions to help others who hate us?What is wrong with people anymore?I just dont get it!

[Zaphod222]

bacca, on 30 January 2013 - 11:49 PM, said:

Why is being liberal a bad thing? When did caring about something bigger then oneself become something to be made fun of?
(snip)

I do not think that your long list of talking points has much to do with the things that opponents of the "liberal" party in the US object to. Such as ever-growing taxation, government interference, social engineering in the name of misguided "political correctness", massive deficit spending, voter fraud, and so on and so on.

It seems to me that you are trying to attack a strawman which you made up yourself.