282 replies to this topic

[manbearpigg]

I'm sure everyone here is familiar with the problem of evil but just in case here it goes:

1) GOD (in the Abrahamic Religions) is omnipotent (ALL ABLE), omniscient (ALL KNOWING) and omni-benevolent (ALL LOVING).
2) EVIL/SIN exists (again in the religious sense.)
3) GOD is not one of those three things thus the GOD that many major religions believe does not exist.

The COUNTERARGUMENT:

1) What we perceive as evil can be good in GOD's plan
2) In order to know and experience GOOD there must be a relative EVIL (light/shadow theology)
3) As an ANT cannot fathom the renaissance or computers, WE cannot fathom GOD's actions.


This is my COUNTER-COUNTERARGUMENT:
1) if God is all powerful why does not create an alternate reality without the need for evil? (AKA HEAVEN?)
2) If God Is all knowing, why does did he go through the process of creating something that he does not desire?
3) If God is all loving, what happens to those who are not fortunate enough to know or even hear one of the three major Abrahamic Religions? (CHRISTIANITY, ISLAM, JUDAISM)

Seriously, what proof do you have that God exists besides personal testimonials?
what proof do you have against the fact that people have existed before the founding of these religions?
what would you say if i told you that the modern bible was CREATED in 325AD by the first council of NICAEA?
Where is your God now?

[B Jenkins]

manbearpigg, on 28 January 2013 - 08:56 PM, said:

This is my COUNTER-COUNTERARGUMENT:
1) if God is all powerful why does not create an alternate reality without the need for evil? (AKA HEAVEN?)
2) If God Is all knowing, why does did he go through the process of creating something that he does not desire?
3) If God is all loving, what happens to those who are not fortunate enough to know or even hear one of the three major Abrahamic Religions? (CHRISTIANITY, ISLAM, JUDAISM)

1) Heaven is a reward for the faithful.

2) Perhaps what God envisioned for man was a utopiac society that He could dwell amongst but sin and transgression occurred, the nature of man was transformed and mankind will never enjoy a utopaic society for it neither enjoy God's dwelling anymore.

3) Man lost his relationship with God, and because of this, man turned his heart to worshipping idols and false gods. God in His own good time repaired that relationship. What happened before and what happens after is to be determined by God.

[Coffey]

You're argument/debate against God is flawed.

You are trying to disprove god, by using religions that are man made.


Man made Religion and Man wrote the religious books.

You could also say Man made up God.

But both are very different.


If there is a God, then God will be something we probably can't even begin to imagine. Because how can we imagine something we haven't seen the likes of before?

[manbearpigg]

Coffey, on 28 January 2013 - 09:24 PM, said:

You're argument/debate against God is flawed.

You are trying to disprove god, by using religions that are man made.


Man made Religion and Man wrote the religious books.

You could also say Man made up God.

But both are very different.


If there is a God, then God will be something we probably can't even begin to imagine. Because how can we imagine something we haven't seen the likes of before?

It is flawed but it is purposefully flawed since this is an argument against those who believe in a CHRISTIAN GOD.
obviously a scientific argument would be as simple as where are the dinosaurs in biblical stories? or Why does GOD promote genocide?

I think its obvious to most the MAN has created the MODERN GOD who is this ultimate perfect being who plays by his own rules.

[Coffey]

manbearpigg, on 28 January 2013 - 09:30 PM, said:

It is flawed but it is purposefully flawed since this is an argument against those who believe in a CHRISTIAN GOD.
obviously a scientific argument would be as simple as where are the dinosaurs in biblical stories? or Why does GOD promote genocide?

I think its obvious to most the MAN has created the MODERN GOD who is this ultimate perfect being who plays by his own rules.

Well you need to be more specific that your argument is aimed at the Christian God, or the bible.

Humans wrote the bible though, so how would they have had knowledge of dinosaurs?

Where does God promote genocide? The bible again was written by humans.


You are disproving the Bible, but that doesn't disprove God and most people know these things anyway.

[B Jenkins]

manbearpigg, on 28 January 2013 - 09:30 PM, said:

It is flawed but it is purposefully flawed since this is an argument against those who believe in a CHRISTIAN GOD.
obviously a scientific argument would be as simple as where are the dinosaurs in biblical stories? or Why does GOD promote genocide?

I think its obvious to most the MAN has created the MODERN GOD who is this ultimate perfect being who plays by his own rules.

The same God that perceives mankind to be utterly and completely corrupt and depraved.

In other words, we are corrupt and depraved creatures to the Christian God.

EDIT: What we can perceive as ordinary day-to-day character flaws are perceived as sin by a holy and incorruptible God, sins worthy of our spiritual deaths. Whether it be lying, cheating, lusting, adulterous, idolatrous, cruelty, abusiveness, violence, greediness, stinginess, wrathfulness, etc, etc.

Edited by B Jenkins, 28 January 2013 - 09:47 PM.

[manbearpigg]

B Jenkins, on 28 January 2013 - 09:23 PM, said:

1) Heaven is a reward for the faithful.

2) Perhaps what God envisioned for man was a utopiac society that He could dwell amongst but sin and transgression occurred, the nature of man was transformed and mankind will never enjoy a utopaic society for it neither enjoy God's dwelling anymore.

3) Man lost his relationship with God, and because of this, man turned his heart to worshipping idols and false gods. God in His own good time repaired that relationship. What happened before and what happens after is to be determined by God.

1)Why does not God only create the faithful? if it is due to free will the very action of creation denies us of free will since he is all knowing and knows which one of us are gonna be "BAD" of "UNFAITHFUL"

2) If so, how can we say that he is all knowing, loving and/or powerful? He is GOD he should have known that his creations would not behave as he wants.

3) I think what you are saying is that you do not know what happens to those who are not aware of GOD, before or after.
However the answer is simple since there is only TWO possible outcomes.
   a) God punishes those who do not know by sending them to "HELL"
   God forgives those who do not know by accepting them into "HEAVEN"

if a) is true GOD is not benevolent, he is unjust and the billions of people born before the spread of any religions in areas unreachable by others are unjustly sent to eternal damnation.
if is true God is inconsistent since he gives certain people freebies while others who FOLLOW him are subjugated to a life denied of sexual pleasure, self-love, other things that religions limit or cause (Gender inequality, bigotry, war). Second if is true Believers should not spread the message or the gospel since not-knowing gives you a free ticket to heaven. THUS those who preach if is true are just increasing the hell population.

if you think there's a middle ground like purgatory or non-existence by blight, i dunno... sounds hellish yet still.

[HavocWing]

B Jenkins, on 28 January 2013 - 09:35 PM, said:

The same God that perceives mankind to be utterly and completely corrupt and depraved.

In other words, we are corrupt and depraved creatures to the Christian God.

If "god" made man in his image, that would make him depraved also. (I happen to think "god" is the very definition of depraved)

http://drunkwithblood.com/

Edited by HavocWing, 28 January 2013 - 09:47 PM.

[manbearpigg]

Coffey, on 28 January 2013 - 09:33 PM, said:

Well you need to be more specific that your argument is aimed at the Christian God, or the bible.

Humans wrote the bible though, so how would they have had knowledge of dinosaurs?

Where does God promote genocide? The bible again was written by humans.


You are disproving the Bible, but that doesn't disprove God and most people know these things anyway.

I must have not been clear, sorry about that.
My argument is a continuation of the PROBLEM OF EVIL so any Abrahamic GODS.
or better yet, any religion that believe that their God is all knowing powerful and loving.

and God promoted Genocide in the old testament when he ordered the killings of ALL Amorites (man women child animals even!) and was FURIOUS at Saul for not completing the tasks.

Second the Canaanites during the exodus were repelled from their lands and murdered as we see what happens to the residents of Jericho etc..

theres a lot more Im just too lazy to look it up.

[B Jenkins]

manbearpigg, on 28 January 2013 - 09:43 PM, said:

1)Why does not God only create the faithful? if it is due to free will the very action of creation denies us of free will since he is all knowing and knows which one of us are gonna be "BAD" of "UNFAITHFUL"

2) If so, how can we say that he is all knowing, loving and/or powerful? He is GOD he should have known that his creations would not behave as he wants.

3) I think what you are saying is that you do not know what happens to those who are not aware of GOD, before or after.
However the answer is simple since there is only TWO possible outcomes.
   a) God punishes those who do not know by sending them to "HELL"
   God forgives those who do not know by accepting them into "HEAVEN"

if a) is true GOD is not benevolent, he is unjust and the billions of people born before the spread of any religions in areas unreachable by others are unjustly sent to eternal damnation.
if is true God is inconsistent since he gives certain people freebies while others who FOLLOW him are subjugated to a life denied of sexual pleasure, self-love, other things that religions limit or cause (Gender inequality, bigotry, war). Second if is true Believers should not spread the message or the gospel since not-knowing gives you a free ticket to heaven. THUS those who preach if is true are just increasing the hell population.

if you think there's a middle ground like purgatory or non-existence by blight, i dunno... sounds hellish yet still.

1) It does say the path to life is narrow, and wide is the path to destruction. God perhaps maintains high standards.

2) Before sin perhaps there wasnt a hell.

3) What I said, who goes to hell and who goes to heaven is determined by God alone. He has the final word. But if those that dont know him... than why is there a Gospel required? Why is it required to preach?

Additionally, everyone will be judged for sin whether they know God or not. Their very natures will condemn them before God.

[Coffey]

manbearpigg, on 28 January 2013 - 09:50 PM, said:

I must have not been clear, sorry about that.
My argument is a continuation of the PROBLEM OF EVIL so any Abrahamic GODS.
or better yet, any religion that believe that their God is all knowing powerful and loving.

and God promoted Genocide in the old testament when he ordered the killings of ALL Amorites (man women child animals even!) and was FURIOUS at Saul for not completing the tasks.

Second the Canaanites during the exodus were repelled from their lands and murdered as we see what happens to the residents of Jericho etc..

theres a lot more Im just too lazy to look it up.

All those things where written by people though. There is no evidence a God did those things.  If there is a God, it probably cares for all life the same. Or it would know things on a higher level which means life isn't that important to individuals.

[B Jenkins]

Let me sum up my theory on those not raised to know the Abrahamic God, when they encounter Him in death. They will know their sins and be ashamed for them and condemned for them because His love will burn right through their souls. They will be horrified and disgusted of themselves and their impure hateful acts and thoughts they ENJOYED living upon the Earth. I believe the unsaved will witness themselves in much the manner God witnessed them throughout their whole lost lives. Not only is God going to condemn them but their own consciences will condemn themselves as well. They will know their unworthiness. In fact, they will probably want to flee from God out of sheer terror and shame.

Just my .02 cents worth.

Edited by B Jenkins, 28 January 2013 - 10:11 PM.

[Seeker79]

Coffey, on 28 January 2013 - 09:33 PM, said:

Humans wrote the bible though, so how would they have had knowledge of dinosaurs?

Mabey they found a bone or found a dead whale on a beach somewhere. If I was an alive a long time ago and found a fish fossile on some mountain I might conclude ( without any knowledge of earth science) that there was a very high flood at some point.

[manbearpigg]

Coffey, on 28 January 2013 - 09:56 PM, said:

All those things where written by people though. There is no evidence a God did those things.  If there is a God, it probably cares for all life the same. Or it would know things on a higher level which means life isn't that important to individuals.

I think we stand on the same page in that we are both labeled "Agnostic" in that we don't assume or preach absolutism.
I think its far more logical to believe in a "GOD" or the supernatural when contemplating St. Aquinas and Newton.
for every action there is a reaction, every action is thus just a reaction of another reaction.
the first mover is Supernatural and not provable by science.
"GOD" or some other being/thing is that supernatural entity.

or not.

[Coffey]

manbearpigg, on 28 January 2013 - 10:45 PM, said:

I think we stand on the same page in that we are both labeled "Agnostic" in that we don't assume or preach absolutism.
I think its far more logical to believe in a "GOD" or the supernatural when contemplating St. Aquinas and Newton.
for every action there is a reaction, every action is thus just a reaction of another reaction.
the first mover is Supernatural and not provable by science.
"GOD" or some other being/thing is that supernatural entity.

or not.

Yes I agree with that to an extent.