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Hitler didnít kill himself in Berlin


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#31    Paracelse

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Posted 19 October 2011 - 07:29 PM

View PostLilly, on 19 October 2011 - 06:44 PM, said:

I don't think a sword will do the trick...I think you have to "stake" them through the heart (a la Buffy style).  :yes:
Darn I don't have a stake ... I wanted to pull a "Duncan McLeod".... and be able to say "There can be only one" :(

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#32    Lilly

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Posted 19 October 2011 - 07:32 PM

View PostParacelse, on 19 October 2011 - 07:29 PM, said:

Darn I don't have a stake ... I wanted to pull a "Duncan McLeod".... and be able to say "There can be only one" :(

That might just work as well...go for it. :yes:  

(nothing like a man with a sword wearing a kilt!)

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#33    marharthm

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Posted 19 October 2011 - 08:39 PM

Is there any evidence AT ALL that he died in the bunker?

What eyewitness reports exist?


I am curious because I don't believe any photos exist.


#34    Corp

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Posted 19 October 2011 - 08:43 PM

View Postbigtroutak, on 19 October 2011 - 07:27 PM, said:

That makes sense, but my thinking is A) The Americans weren't the only ones beating the hell out of him and they didn't want to take the chance of the RUsskies getting ahold of the tech. B ) Beating the hell out of a nation can have unintended consequences , such as beating the hell out of the very tech (and technicians)  you're trying to capture. C) Perhaps Hitler knew where something was that we didn't.

Not saying any of the above necessarily makes Hitler's escape true , just adds a little texture to the backdrop

Well the Russians were already getting a hold of a fair bit of the technology anyway since the bulk of the German forces were always fighting on the Eastern Front. Plus before the Battle of Berlin even began the Allies had already agreed on how Germany was going to be divided post war. So the Americans knew that the Russians were going to take Berlin, and any toys that it might hold, and didn't seem that bugged about it otherwise they would have kept pushing the advance. And if Hitler had any tricks left he would have used them in an effort to turn things around.

All in all a secret deal is very unlikely given the context of the situation.

War is an ugly thing, but not the ugliest of things: the decayed and degraded state of moral and patriotic feeling which thinks that nothing is worth a war, is much worse...A man who has nothing which he is willing to fight for, nothing which he cares more about than he does about his personal safety, is a miserable creature who has no chance of being free, unless made and kept so by the exertions of better men than himself.

#35    Robbie333

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Posted 19 October 2011 - 08:52 PM

View PostCorp, on 19 October 2011 - 08:43 PM, said:

Well the Russians were already getting a hold of a fair bit of the technology anyway since the bulk of the German forces were always fighting on the Eastern Front. Plus before the Battle of Berlin even began the Allies had already agreed on how Germany was going to be divided post war. So the Americans knew that the Russians were going to take Berlin, and any toys that it might hold, and didn't seem that bugged about it otherwise they would have kept pushing the advance. And if Hitler had any tricks left he would have used them in an effort to turn things around.

All in all a secret deal is very unlikely given the context of the situation.

         I agree. Here are some of those animals that were found and brought to trial though.

                        http://www.telegraph...nted-Nazis.html

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#36    Corp

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Posted 19 October 2011 - 08:58 PM

View Postmarharthm, on 19 October 2011 - 08:39 PM, said:

Is there any evidence AT ALL that he died in the bunker?

What eyewitness reports exist?


I am curious because I don't believe any photos exist.

Well I'm not sure if anyone actually saw him off himself but several high ranking German officers (Goebbels and Bormann among others) were with him in the bunker and witnessed his last will and testament. Also since Hitler's body was reported to have been destroyed before the remaining Germans surrendered there wouldn't have been any pictures. But we know from German witnesses and orders being issued that Hitler was in the bulker when the Russians completely surrounded Berlin. With Soviet troops just a few blocks away and shooting anything that moved it's highly unlikely he would have been able to slip away.

War is an ugly thing, but not the ugliest of things: the decayed and degraded state of moral and patriotic feeling which thinks that nothing is worth a war, is much worse...A man who has nothing which he is willing to fight for, nothing which he cares more about than he does about his personal safety, is a miserable creature who has no chance of being free, unless made and kept so by the exertions of better men than himself.

#37    Robbie333

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Posted 19 October 2011 - 09:02 PM

View PostCorp, on 19 October 2011 - 08:58 PM, said:

Well I'm not sure if anyone actually saw him off himself but several high ranking German officers (Goebbels and Bormann among others) were with him in the bunker and witnessed his last will and testament. Also since Hitler's body was reported to have been destroyed before the remaining Germans surrendered there wouldn't have been any pictures. But we know from German witnesses and orders being issued that Hitler was in the bulker when the Russians completely surrounded Berlin. With Soviet troops just a few blocks away and shooting anything that moved it's highly unlikely he would have been able to slip away.

        Here is an interesting link about the Hitler suicide photo's. Right or wrong, I found it interesting with some very good points.

            http://www.blackraiser.com/redoubt/

Robbie James

#38    Spectre1979

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Posted 19 October 2011 - 11:34 PM

I too find it disturbing to think that he might have got out alive. I think it is possible but in all likelihood not very probable. If that makes sense. I am sure we don't know the full story and more than likely never will. The fact that the allies won is the best part. It would be nice to finally know the truth, DNA or whatever but will we ever be satisfied? I mean, will we believe the Ruskies? The Americans? Anyone? I don't mind books like this, unless they claim that they have indisputable proof, when then they don't. I like reading theories and conspiracy theories but the second they claim it is true without the hard evidence I get bored.

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#39    MID

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Posted 19 October 2011 - 11:39 PM

View Postmarharthm, on 19 October 2011 - 08:39 PM, said:

Is there any evidence AT ALL that he died in the bunker?

What eyewitness reports exist?


I am curious because I don't believe any photos exist.

The Wiki entry on the death of Hitler names the witnesses...


Suicide


Hitler and Braun lived together as husband and wife in the bunker for fewer than 40 hours. Late in the morning of 30 April, with the Soviets less than 500 metres from the bunker, Hitler had a meeting with General Helmuth Weidling, commander of the Berlin Defence Area, who informed Hitler that the Berlin garrison would probably run out of ammunition that night. Weidling asked Hitler for permission to break out, a request he had made unsuccessfully before. Hitler did not answer at first, and Weidling went back to his headquarters in the Bendlerblock, where at about 13:00 he got Hitler's permission to try a breakout that night.[44] Hitler, two secretaries, and his personal cook then had lunch after which Hitler and Eva Braun said their personal farewells to members of the FŁhrerbunker staff and fellow occupants, including the Goebbels family, Martin Bormann, the secretaries, and several military officers. At around 14:30 Adolf and Eva Hitler went into Hitler's personal study.


The remains of the above-ground portion of the FŁhrerbunker in the garden of the Reich Chancellery. Entrance is to the left and circular structure was for generators and ventilation.Several witnesses later reported hearing a loud gunshot at around 15:30. After waiting a few minutes, Hitler's valet, Heinz Linge, with Bormann at his side, opened the door to the small study. Linge later stated he immediately noted a scent of burnt almonds, a common observation made in the presence of prussic acid, the aqueous form of hydrogen cyanide.[45] Hitler's SS adjutant, SturmbannfŁhrer Otto GŁnsche, entered the study and found the lifeless bodies seated on a small sofa. Eva, with her legs drawn up together, was to Hitler's left and slumped away from him. GŁnsche stated that Hitler "...sat...sunken over, with blood dripping out of his right temple. He had shot himself with his own pistol, a PPK 7.65".[46][45][47] The Walther PPK 7.65 mm pistol lay at his feet.[45] According to OberscharfŁhrer Rochus Misch, however, Hitler's head was lying on the table in front of him.[48] Blood dripping from Hitler's right temple and chin had made a large stain on the right arm of the sofa and was pooling on the floor/carpet. Eva's body had no visible physical wounds and according to Linge, her face showed how she had died; cyanide poisoning. GŁnsche and Mohnke also stated "unequivocally" that all outsiders and those performing duties and work in the bunker "did not have any access" to Hitler's private living quarters during the "decisive" time of death between 15:00 and 16:00 hours.

GŁnsche exited the study and announced that the FŁhrer was dead. The two bodies were carried up the stairs to ground level and through the bunker's emergency exit to the bombed-out garden behind the Reich Chancellery where they were doused with petrol.[



#40    Zaphod222

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Posted 20 October 2011 - 12:31 AM

They are just milking a tired old conspiracy theory that never made sense. Not news. Bah.


#41    _Only

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Posted 20 October 2011 - 12:37 AM

View PostSpectre1979, on 19 October 2011 - 11:34 PM, said:

I too find it disturbing to think that he might have got out alive. I think it is possible but in all likelihood not very probable. If that makes sense. I am sure we don't know the full story and more than likely never will. The fact that the allies won is the best part.

Assuming he did live, I think he would be living in his own personal Hell on Earth knowing his empire was a failure, and all the unclean beasts were free to roam the land. His dreams in life were destroyed.

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#42    marharthm

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Posted 20 October 2011 - 12:52 AM

So high ranking nazi officials are the only witnesses?

If you were a high ranking nazi official, wouldn't you say that your leader killed himself instead of saying "Yea, he escaped go ahead and find him."

Nazis are not the best witnesses for this.


#43    Spectre1979

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Posted 20 October 2011 - 01:28 AM

View PostJerry Only, on 20 October 2011 - 12:37 AM, said:

Assuming he did live, I think he would be living in his own personal Hell on Earth knowing his empire was a failure, and all the unclean beasts were free to roam the land. His dreams in life were destroyed.

That is true. I wonder if he actuall realised in his last days this was what was happening. I hope he did!

There are things known, and things unknown and in between are the Doors!

#44    reggie2011

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Posted 20 October 2011 - 01:28 AM

why would  hitler be hiding in a bunker of course he would have fled ..ediots


#45    Spectre1979

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Posted 20 October 2011 - 01:29 AM

View Postmarharthm, on 20 October 2011 - 12:52 AM, said:

So high ranking nazi officials are the only witnesses?

If you were a high ranking nazi official, wouldn't you say that your leader killed himself instead of saying "Yea, he escaped go ahead and find him."

Nazis are not the best witnesses for this.


Agreed.

There are things known, and things unknown and in between are the Doors!




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