277 replies to this topic

[Bama13]

cormac mac airt, on 15 November 2012 - 06:40 PM, said:

Delaware, Pennsylvania, New Jersey, Georgia, Connecticut, Massachussetts, Maryland, South Carolina, New Hampshire, Virginia and New York were the only states in 1788. And there's a rather large difference between what John Adams considered the south in 1788 and what was "the South" (meaning the Confederate States of America) c.1860 - 1865. BTW, James Madison may have helped draft the Constitution, but again, Gouverneur Morris actually wrote most of it and he was from New York. So no, it wasn't written by a Southerner. There was no meaningful division between North and South in 1788 like there was during the Civil War.

cormac

That would be news to Rhode Island and North Carolina. Since you apparently do not know how many states there were in 1788 I can't put much value on the rest of your "facts".

Once again James Madison is known as the "Father of the Constitution". Gouverneur Morris headed the committee designated to write the constitution. Most sources I found listed Madison as the primary author.

There were at least one huge difference between the north and south, slavery. To claim there was no "north" and "south" in the late 18th century is like claiming there were only 11 states in 1788, in other words wrong.

[Hasina]

MissMelsWell, on 16 November 2012 - 02:12 AM, said:

I'll have to see if I can find the one for Washington State, it was pretty amusing from what I glanced at... one of the concessions they asked for was for President Obama to do the Hokey Pokey. Think they're super serious? LOL. At this point, from what I can tell, the rest of the country is just trying to make Texas look like a bunch of asses, and doing it nicely.

You mean trying to make the people who signed the petition look like asses?

[shaddow134]

Hasina, on 16 November 2012 - 04:31 PM, said:

You mean trying to make the people who signed the petition look like asses?

Well they are aren't they ?

[Hasina]

shaddow134, on 16 November 2012 - 04:36 PM, said:

Well they are aren't they ?

Oh by all means, but many keep using 'Texas' and 'minority of citizens who signed a petition' interchangeably.

[EllJay]

I wonder how it would be if every state in north america was autonomies.
Which would go under and plead for reunion, and which one would prosper?
What has the individual states going for them?

[Stardrive]

747400, on 15 November 2012 - 08:02 AM, said:

Oh, very much agree there. There does seem something rather evangelical about him, and some of his admirers. "Now we can promise Hope and Change!" Well, you didn't manage to deliver Hope or Chnage last time, mr. O, what makes you think you're going to be able to now?

Change? that's about all I have to spend now.  

[Stardrive]

Back on topic, get over it, people have been doing this since I can remember and most of us never paid it any attention. Why so now? The internet.

[questionmark]

Stardrive, on 16 November 2012 - 04:47 PM, said:

Back on topic, get over it, people have been doing this since I can remember and most of us never paid it any attention. Why so now? The internet.

I don't think so, this time the driving force behind it wants to make sure that this is known beyond the local news.

[cormac mac airt]

Bama13, on 16 November 2012 - 04:27 PM, said:

That would be news to Rhode Island and North Carolina. Since you apparently do not know how many states there were in 1788 I can't put much value on the rest of your "facts".

Once again James Madison is known as the "Father of the Constitution". Gouverneur Morris headed the committee designated to write the constitution. Most sources I found listed Madison as the primary author.

There were at least one huge difference between the north and south, slavery. To claim there was no "north" and "south" in the late 18th century is like claiming there were only 11 states in 1788, in other words wrong.

Rhode Island's date of statehood:  May 29, 1790.  North Carolina's date of statehood:  November 21, 1789.  Which means that neither one was a member of the union under the Constitution in 1788.

cormac

[Stardrive]

questionmark, on 16 November 2012 - 04:55 PM, said:

I don't think so, this time the driving force behind it wants to make sure that this is known beyond the local news.

And what better way to spread it around than to spew it all over the web. I thought it was common knowledge this type of thing has always occured. That's what I get for thinking

[HerNibs]

Reminds me of my kids.  All excited about moving out at 18 so they don't have to "live under mom and dad's rules".

Move out.

Call us complaining about "being on our own sucks and is hard"!

Idjits.

Nibs

[questionmark]

Stardrive, on 16 November 2012 - 05:12 PM, said:

And what better way to spread it around than to spew it all over the web. I thought it was common knowledge this type of thing has always occured. That's what I get for thinking

Some states actually have one of these every second year, Texas, California and Alaska come to mind. But normally that falls under the chapter cranks and other nutters. Not that I have more regard for the initiators this time but I got to give 'em that they are better organized this time.

[Bama13]

cormac mac airt, on 16 November 2012 - 04:56 PM, said:

Rhode Island's date of statehood:  May 29, 1790.  North Carolina's date of statehood:  November 21, 1789.  Which means that neither one was a member of the union under the Constitution in 1788.

cormac

So what were these things (most people refer to them as "states") called under the Articles of Confederation? I see the earliest date of statehood is in 1787 (The Date they ratified the Constitution). The US had been in existence from 4 to 11 years (1783 when the Treaty was signed or 1776 when the US declared Independence) by then. So if they were not States what were they? 13 States signed the Articles so NC and RI were States in 1781 but not States in 1787?

[cormac mac airt]

Bama13, on 16 November 2012 - 07:04 PM, said:

So what were these things (most people refer to them as "states") called under the Articles of Confederation? I see the earliest date of statehood is in 1787 (The Date they ratified the Constitution). The US had been in existence from 4 to 11 years (1783 when the Treaty was signed or 1776 when the US declared Independence) by then. So if they were not States what were they? 13 States signed the Articles so NC and RI were States in 1781 but not States in 1787?

They were a confederacy that styled themselves as states while not formally recognizing themselves as such until each State ratified the Constitution. Which is why the dates of statehood begin with it and not with the earlier Articles of Confederation. You can quibble that well, they existed before the Constitution, but they don't recognize themselves as States to any meaningful degree until it was ratified. And in 1788, neither Rhode Island nor North Carolina were States under the Constitution which means that there were only 11.

cormac

[Bama13]

cormac mac airt, on 16 November 2012 - 07:46 PM, said:

They were a confederacy that styled themselves as states while not formally recognizing themselves as such until each State ratified the Constitution. Which is why the dates of statehood begin with it and not with the earlier Articles of Confederation. You can quibble that well, they existed before the Constitution, but they don't recognize themselves as States to any meaningful degree until it was ratified. And in 1788, neither Rhode Island nor North Carolina were States under the Constitution which means that there were only 11.

cormac

When I look at the Articles I see that it is titled: "Articles of confederation and perpetual union between the states of New Hampshire, Massachusetts Bay, Rhode Island, and Providence plantations, Connecticut, New York, New Jersey, Pennsylvania, Delaware, Maryland, Virginia, North Carolina, South Carolina, and Georgia."

Notice the word "states", "North Carolina", and "Rhode Island, and Providence plantations". It looks, from the terminology, like they were called states before they ratified the Constitution.

Regardless they were differences between the northern "wahtevers" and the southern "whatevers". The differences got worse and led to the ACW. But they existed during the Constitutional Convention.