4036 replies to this topic

[Knul]

Apol, on 28 February 2013 - 09:49 AM, said:

The ancient Frisian name may have been Bvda, and then the Romans came and wrote Bata - from what it sounded like to them.

I agree in that it would have been a liberating thing if we were able to link Hâga Fênna and Walda to the neighbouring communities Hoogeveen and De Wolden. I have found no reason to doubt that Mannagardaforda is Münster, though. But who knows, maybe we have been wrong all the time? Mannagardaforda could not be in Denmark, though - of the simple reason that it is written that it was in Saxanamarka [Sachsen].

Hâga Fênna cannot be the Hoge Venen in Belgium - that's right, because in that area you have the burghs Aken [Aachen], Ljvdburch [Liège] and Kâtsburch [Kassel] which all belonged to Sûdar Flílânda.
Still, though, 'Abramelin's theory that Bvda may have been situated in the area of Bodensee may be of some interest - there you have the burg Bodman, the Altbodman burgh ruins and Burg Hals in close proximity to each other. But if we should look at names, the Bodenburg in Bad Salzdetfurth in Niedersachsen, and the burg Bodenlaube in Bad Kissingen in Bayern might be worth taking a look at also. There is a historical neighbourhood named Buda in the Belgian city of Courtray, but it is in a wrong place.

However,
Ljudburg has been identified as Leyden, not as Liege.
Aken is not on the Rhine river. I have discussed earlier, that Aken could be The Hague, where the Dutch counts in the time of Hidde built a new castle. Ockenburg (The Hague) is a good alternative.
Katsburg could be identified as Katwijk (Brittenburg), which is more appropriate than Kattenburg (Amsterdam). Kassel is too far away.
The places you mention are in the area of the Twisklandar (Teutons).The Frisians had friendly relations with the Saxons. Friso and Saxo were partners in warfare. Hals (Holstein) is mentioned as friendly people as well.
The general idea behind this, is that you try to locate the places too far away from the Frisian homeland. We better concentrate on Saxony and Holstein.
By the way Munster is in Rhineland-Westfalen, not in Saxony.

Edited by Knul, 28 February 2013 - 02:05 PM.

[Abramelin]

The Puzzler, on 28 February 2013 - 01:11 PM, said:

That's all fine and dandy they have a similar name but it doesn't explain the existance of actual people called Finns and what the etymology of their name is, which could very well be just the same.

The Icelandic Eddas and Norse sagas (11th to 14th centuries), some of the oldest written sources probably originating from the closest proximity, use words like finnr and finnas inconsistently.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Finns

This is the etymology of "Finn" according to your link:
http://en.wikipedia....Finns#Etymology

It has no relationship with the explanation given in the OLB.

But the explanation I posted (the "Fijnen") fits perfectly.

Someone has been playing with names (Finn, Fijn), that's all.

[Abramelin]

Ockenburg instead of Aken is indeed better, and it's perhaps much older than initially thought:


This is about the German Aachen:

De naam is afkomstig van van het Latijnse Aquisgranum dat in het Oudgermaanse Ahha werd. Aken heet in het Duits: Aachen, in het Frans Aix-la-Chapelle, in het Limburgs Aoke/Oche en in het Luxemburgs Oochen.

The name comes from the Latin Aquisgranum which became Ahha in Old Germanic. Aken is called Aachen in German, in French Aix-la-Chapelle, in the dialect of the province of Limburg Aoke/Oche and in Luxembourgish Oochen.

http://nl.wikipedia....iki/Aken_(stad)



http://en.wikipedia....acob_Westerbaen
http://www.haagsepoe...-en-ockenburgh/




Waar de naam Ockenburgh vandaan komt is niet bekend. Sommige bronnen spreken van een landgoed "Ockenberghe" dat in de 15e eeuw in de buurt van Wateringen zou hebben gelegen, maar aan het begin van de 80 jarige oorlog is ontruimd.

Het huidige Landgoed Ockenburg is omstreeks 1650 aangelegd in opdracht van de dichter en medicus Jacob Westerbaen. Wegen en groen werden in Classicistische landschapsstijl ontworpen. Het is goed mogelijk dat Westerbaen de naam van het verdwenen landgoed heeft overgenomen.

Na de dood van Westerbaen kwam Ockenburgh in handen van Maarten Pauw, bewindhebber van de V.O.C. en burgemeester van Delft. Zijn kleinkinderen lieten het Kleyne Paleis omstreeks 1720 afbreken en een nieuw landhuis bouwen. Dat landhuis bestaat nog steeds. Het is in 1845   verbouwd in (laat) Neo-Classicistische stijl en in die vorm is het tot op heden bewaard gebleven.

-

Where the name Ockenburgh comes from is not known. Some sources speak of an estate "Ockenberghe" in the 15th century that would have been near Wateringen, but was cleared at the beginning of the 80 years war.

The current Estate Ockenburg was built in 1650 by order of the poet and physician Jacob Westerbaen. Roads and greenery were in classicist style landscape design. It is possible that Westerbaen took over the name of the disappeared estate.

After the death of Westerbaen Ockenburgh came into the hands of Martin Peacock, governor of the Dutch United East India Company and Mayor of Delft. Around 1720 his grandchildren had the Kleyne Paleis (Small Palace) demolished and had a new house built. This house still exists. It was rebuilt in 1845 in the (late) Neo-Classicist style and in that form it is preserved to this day.

http://historie.hdpnet.nl/ock.htm


This "Ockenberghe" must have existed in the 14th century:

Dieric van Ockenberghe - 1329
http://www.historici...oorkonde/NH_406

Coat of Arms:
http://www.heraldica...ockenberghe.htm

Translated:
http://translate.goo...ockenberghe.htm

http://www.benwilbri...ogie/hoeven.htm


http://bugs.ptenb.nl...et-landgoed.php


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Edited by Abramelin, 28 February 2013 - 02:10 PM.

[Abramelin]

Knul, on 28 February 2013 - 01:43 PM, said:

<snip>

The general idea behind this, is that you try to locate the places too far away from the Frisian homeland. We better concentrate on Saxony and Holstein.
By the way Munster is in Rhineland-Westfalen, not in Saxony.

Abramelin, on 27 February 2013 - 08:14 AM, said:

Quote from the OLB:

Ther Saxman Storo, Sytjas man, grêvetman ovir-a hâga fenna aend walda. Njvgun wâra is-er to hêrtoga, thaet is to hyrman, kêren. Tha burga Bvda aend Manna-gârda-forda send vnder sin hod.

The Saxman Storo, Sytia’s husband; Grevetman over the high fens and woods. Nine times he was chosen as duke or heerman . The burghs Buda and Manna-garda-forda are under his care.



The High Fens (French: Hautes Fagnes; German: Hohes Venn; Dutch: Hoge Venen), which were declared a nature reserve in 1957, are an upland area, a plateau region in the province of Liège, in the east of Belgium and adjoining parts of Germany, between the Ardennes and the Eifel highlands.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/High_Fens
http://www.naturpark...ohesvenn_eifel/

Manna-gârda-forda = Münster

Mimigernaford
http://de.wikipedia....ter_(Westfalen)

Mimigernaford - Mimegardeford. Die ursprünglichen Namen der Stadt Münster
(The original name of the city of Münster)

http://epub.uni-regensburg.de/24584/

<snip>

Menno, Münster is not at all that far away from Frisia:


In 1663 a conflict about the border between the (Catholic) Princebishopric of Münster and the (Calvinist) Principality of East Frisia (in German : Ostfriesland) turned violent; Princebishop Christoph Bernhard von Galen had the Hampoel and the Dieler Schanze occupied and the latter fortified.
In 1664, Dutch troops, supporting Prince Georg Christian of East Frisia, took the Dieler Schanze and restored her to the Prince.

No border treaty was concluded; when Münsteran Bailiff Alexander von Velen in 1710 had a house built on the Hampoel, East Frisian troops in 1712 destroyed it. In 1717 Münsteran and East Frisian regiments faced each other, ready to strike. As late as 1796, the border dispute was still regarded unresolved.

http://www.zum.de/wh...el16631664.html

=

And the borders between the Saxenmarken and Frisia shifted throughout the ages.

This is a map (Taaldacht site) I once posted:



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Edited by Abramelin, 28 February 2013 - 02:56 PM.

[Apol]

Abramelin, on 28 February 2013 - 10:34 AM, said:

The Sûdar Flílânda cannot possibly be where you think it is (area around Aachen, Luik and Kassel) because there is no river called Fly/Vlie. Flyland is the area directly left, right and south of of this (former) river.

Ljvdburch = Leidse Burgh (in Leiden)
Kâtsburch = Kattenburg (in Amsterdam, Knul's idea)
Aken = ? I thought Ockenburg (in The Hague)


On this old map of the Netherlands you can see the Flie/Vlie river in the top-left corner of the country:





Click thumbnail to enlarge:

VLIE.jpg

.
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I have always thought of Westflílând, Âstflíland and Sûdar Flílânda as being the areas to the west, east and south of Flí and Flímâr, respectively.
Moreover, unlike the states to the west and to the east, Sûdar Flílanda is written in plural - which makes me think of separated areas, maybe areas between river streams.

Here is a map that probably is more reliable:
http://commons.wikim...ex_leg_copy.jpg - developed for the Nationale Onderzoeksagenda Archeologie.

Your theory is interesting, and should be investigated further, though.

From the context I regard 'the delta' as being the delta formed by the Alp Rhine as it flows into the Bodensee:
http://de.wikipedia....delta_(Bodensee)

And I think Leiden is Lydasburch, and not Ljvdburch.

Edited by Apol, 28 February 2013 - 03:23 PM.

[Abramelin]

The Englsih Wiki doesn't explain much about this name, Mimigernaford/Mimigardeford, but the German one does:


Altsächsische Siedlung

Schätzungsweise seit dem 6. Jahrhundert lag im Bereich des Domplatzes die kleine sächsische Siedlung Mimigernaford. Die Sachsen, ursprünglich beheimatet im Raum Holstein, breiteten sich im 3. und 4. Jahrhundert über das Elbe-Weser-Dreieck in Richtung England und nach Süden aus. Die Herkunft des Stammesnamens westfalai, wie die westlichen Sachsen in den fränkischen Annalen bezeichnet werden, und sie sich auch wohl selbst bezeichnet haben, ist nicht genau geklärt. Eine Deutung verbindet den Wortstamm fal mit fahl, flachsfarben und bezieht ihn auf die Haarfarbe. Für die Namen der Siedlung Mimigernaford gibt es auch verschiedene Deutungen. Nach neueren Untersuchungen ist die Siedlung an der Furt über die Aa nach den Mimigernen benannt, den Sippenangehörigen eines Stammvaters namens Mimigern. Der Name wurde bis ins 10. Jahrhundert benutzt, allerdings häufig in der abgewandelten Form Mimigardeford.

Old Saxon settlement

It is estimated that since the 6th Century within the range of Domplatz/Cathedral Square there was the small Saxon settlement Mimigernaford. The Saxons, originally living in the Holstein area, spread, in the 3rd and 4 Century, across the Elbe-Weser triangle towards England and the south. The origin of the tribal name 'westfalai', as the Western Saxons were known in the Frankish annals and like they may have also called themselves, is not clearly understood. One interpretation connects the stem 'fal' with 'fahl' (= pale), flat, pale colors and relates it to their hair color. For the name of the settlement Mimigernaford there are different interpretations. According to recent studies, the village at the ford over the Aa was named after the Mimigerns, the family members of a patriarch named Mimigern. The name was used until the 10th century, though often in the modified form Mimigardeford

http://de.wikipedia...._Stadt_MÃŒnster


English Wiki:

In 793 Charlemagne sent out as missionary the Frisian Liudger (later canonized) to convert the Saxons with whom he had been battling, offering as headquarters his recently demolished Frankish stronghold of Mimigernaford ("ford over the Aa river"), at the crossroads of the road from Cologne and the road to Frisia. Liudger was a product of Utrecht and the York school of Ethelbert, which produced many of the clerics who served in Charlemagne's chancelry. He built his church and cloister on the right bank of the Aa, on the height called the Horsteberg: it was the monastery ("monasterium") from which Münster derives its name.

http://en.wikipedia....ory_of_MÃŒnster

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Edited by Abramelin, 28 February 2013 - 03:46 PM.

[Abramelin]

Apol, on 28 February 2013 - 03:17 PM, said:

-1-  I have always thought of Westflílând, Âstflíland and Sûdar Flílânda as being the areas to the west, east and south of Flí and Flímâr, respectively.
-2- Moreover, unlike the states to the west and to the east, Sûdar Flílanda is written in plural - which makes me think of separated areas, maybe areas between river streams.

Here is a map that probably is more reliable:
http://commons.wikim...ex_leg_copy.jpg - developed for the Nationale Onderzoeksagenda Archeologie.

Your theory is interesting, and should be investigated further, though.

-3- From the context I regard 'the delta' as being the delta formed by the Alp Rhine as it flows into the Bodensee:
http://de.wikipedia....delta_(Bodensee)

-4- And I think Leiden is Lydasburch, and not Ljvdburch.

-1- I always thought the same, and it is kind of logical.

-2- Could be, but they still should be located close to the other two and close to the Fly river, just like the Rhineland is near the Rhine.

-3- The delta is the lowlands lying between the rivers Rhine/Waal/Lek and the North Sea coast. If we are still talking about the Aken story, that is. As you know the whole of the Netherlands is nothing but a large delta, but Aken is in the foothills of the Ardennen, ie. not much lowland or delta.

-4- Let me ponder about that one, lol.

[Abramelin]

A bit more info about the original name of Münster, Mimigernaford/Mimigardeford :



Teutonic Mythology Vol. 4 - Jacob W. Grimm

http://books.google....n -ebay&f=false

[Apol]

Abramelin, on 27 February 2013 - 12:36 PM, said:

You don't believe what exactly about the wheelbarrow?

I think it is funny - he, he... but of course, it's some sort of idea.

Abramelin, on 27 February 2013 - 08:14 AM, said:

Quote from the OLB:

Ther Saxman Storo, Sytjas man, grêvetman ovir-a hâga fenna aend walda. Njvgun wâra is-er to hêrtoga, thaet is to hyrman, kêren. Tha burga Bvda aend Manna-gârda-forda send vnder sin hod.

The Saxman Storo, Sytia’s husband; Grevetman over the high fens and woods. Nine times he was chosen as duke or heerman . The burghs Buda and Manna-garda-forda are under his care.



The High Fens (French: Hautes Fagnes; German: Hohes Venn; Dutch: Hoge Venen), which were declared a nature reserve in 1957, are an upland area, a plateau region in the province of Liège, in the east of Belgium and adjoining parts of Germany, between the Ardennes and the Eifel highlands.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/High_Fens
http://www.naturpark...ohesvenn_eifel/

Manna-gârda-forda = Münster

Mimigernaford
http://de.wikipedia....ter_(Westfalen)

Mimigernaford - Mimegardeford. Die ursprünglichen Namen der Stadt Münster
(The original name of the city of Münster)

http://epub.uni-regensburg.de/24584/



Bvda:

It's not just Bvda/Buda, it's the burgh of Buda or the Budaburgh.

It's the place after which the Bodensee is named.


Aus der Völkerwanderungszeit stammt nordöstlich des Dorfes auf halber Bergeshöhe bei der „Bodenburg“ ein alemannisches Reihengräberfeld

From the migration period northeast of the village at half height in the mountains near the "Bodenburg" originates an Alemannic cemetery

http://de.wikipedia....an-Ludwigshafen

http://en.wikipedia..../Lake_Constance

.

After all I think that Bvda couldn't have been in the Bodensee area, because when Apollânja visited there, it was the burgh-femme in New Freyjasburgh (NY.FRYA.S.BURCH) who informed her about the sea-dwellers there. Had there been a burgh in the Bodensee area, she would have heard it from the burgh-femme there; but we don't hear about another burgh-femme nor burgh in the area.

The site of New Freyjasburch was certainly Freiburg im Breisgau. It is conspicuous that the burgh isn't mentioned in the grietmen's list of states and burghs in Freyjasland (p. 5/10-28), while every single one of the other burghs are mentioned - except from Lydasburgh, which wasn't a femme-burgh, but a shelter for the hired African rowers. Accordingly, the original Freyjasburgh is called ALD.FRYASBURCH (Old Freyjasburgh) in the same list.
The reason for this was certainly that the Frisians were quite sure that the Magí would conquer their country after he had killed Adela. If, or when, that happened, their plan was to retreat to New Freyjasburgh and make it their new capital. Freiburg has a very specific position between the Rhine and the source of the Danube river; those two rivers are just a few miles apart in exactly that location. The Rhine flows to the North Sea, and the Danube to the Black Sea which leads to the Mediterranean Sea.
The plan of the Frisians was wise, because by moving there they were able to continue their indispensable sea trade. ("In.t fon ænd omme fâra lêid vs held" - "In the sailing to and from our prosperity lies" (pp. 112/32 - 113/1).)
New Freyjasburgh and Old Freyjasburgh are mentioned only those two times. In fact, what the Frisians feared didn't happen - the Magí infiltrated the Frisian population instead. And later writers are once more referring to the burgh at Texland as Fryasburch.

Edited by Apol, 28 February 2013 - 04:42 PM.

[Apol]

Abramelin, on 28 February 2013 - 04:18 PM, said:

A bit more info about the original name of Münster, Mimigernaford/Mimigardeford :



Teutonic Mythology Vol. 4 - Jacob W. Grimm

http://books.google....n -ebay&f=false

That is a very interesting clip, 'Abramelin'. I'll study it tomorrow.

[Abramelin]

Apol, on 28 February 2013 - 04:34 PM, said:

I think it is funny - he, he... but of course, it's some sort of idea.

Kroder is an old Dutch/Frisian word for carrier/wheelbarrow.

The Little Dipper is also seen as a wheelbarrow, and Polaris is part of that constellation. And its rotation was used as a measure of time, like the OLB Kroder.

The Fryans were stargazers, as you will know when you read the description of the largest burgh/citadel, the one in Texland.

The OLB also mentions 'watchstars', another hint that they - or better, the one who wrote the OLB - were stargazers.

[Knul]

Let us have a look at the OLB text once more. The author mentions five reeves (grêvetmanna), three of them are former sêkeningar (sea-kings), two of them were former hermana (hêrtoga) (commanders).  The logic of this is, that the sea-kings come from areas adjacent to the sea and the commanders come from inland areas.

The sea-kings are:

1.    Apol – Astflyland and Oviralindawrda + Ljvdgarda [Leeuwarden], Lindahem [Wolvega] and Stavja [Stavoren] = modern Friesland.

2.    Enoch – Westflyland and Texland + Waraburch, Medeasblik and Forana = modern West-Friesland

3.    Foppo – Sjugun êlânda. = modern Zeeland

The inland-kings are:

4.    Storo (Saxman) – Haga Fenna and Walda + Buda, Mannagardaforda (later in the book it is said to be a mistake for Mannagardawrda). = Overijssel, Drente, Achterhoek (Dutch Saxonian area)

5.    Abelo – Suderflylanda + Aken, Ljvdburg and Katsburg = must be modern Zuid-Holland (South-Holland). Though the area is adjacent to the sea  the people are no more sea-farers, because the Rhine was blocked by Dunes.


The story of the OLB deals with Astflyland and Westflyland, mainly Stavia and Medeasblik. The other areas east and south of Astflyland and Westflyland are less important.
+ indicates the main places in that area. So Ljvdgarda, Lindahem and Stavja in the area of Astflyland and Oviralindawrda, Waraburch, Medeasblik and Forana in the area of Westflyland and Texel. We know about the Domburg (Walhallagara) in Sealand. Following this line we should look for Buda and Mannagardaforda in the area of the Haga Fenna and Walda and we should look for Aken, Ljvdburg and Katsburg in the area of Syderflylanda.
So, I have to revise my views.

Edited by Knul, 01 March 2013 - 08:53 PM.

[Abramelin]

Menno, Mannagardaforda could be Münster:


ÉR HÉDIK ANDA SÁXANA MARKA. TO THÉRE BURCH MÀNNA.GÁRDA.FORDA WÉST
I had been before in the Saxenmarken, at the Mannagardaforda burgh/citadel.


As I showed you, the Saxenmarken included Münster. And the old name for Münster, Mimigernaford / Mimegardeford, is too close to the OLB name, Mannagardaforda, to just forget about it.






"5.    Abelo – Suderflylanda + Aken, Ljvdburg and Katsburg = must be modern Zuid-Holland (South-Holland). Though the area is adjacent to the sea  the people are no more sea-farers, because the Rhine was blocked by Dunes."

You seem to forget about villages like Scheveningen and Katwijk (Kadik) which were and still are fishing villages, ie: seafarers.


"Let us have a look at the OLB text once more. The author mentions five reeves (grêvetmanna), three of them are former sêkeningar (sea-kings), two of them were former hermana (hêrtoga) (commanders).  The logic of this is, that the sea-kings come from areas adjacent to the sea and the commanders come from inland areas."

Remember where the Vikings, the real 'sea-kings', settled? Not just on the coasts, but far inland.

They followed the rivers.

And where is "Oviralindawrda" ? I haven't read that word in the OLB

.

Edited by Abramelin, 01 March 2013 - 10:00 PM.

[Abramelin]

Fon sin êrosta wif hêder twên sviaringa bihalda, thêr sêr klok wêron. Hetto, that is hête, thene jongste skikt er as senda boda nêi Kattaburch thaet djap inna Saxanamarka lêid.

Of his first wife he still had two brothers-in-law, who were very daring. Hetto—that is, heat—the youngest, he sent as messenger to Kattaburgt, which lies far in the Saxsenmarken.

http://oeralinda.angelfire.com/#bu

So Apol may be right after all. He suggested "Kassel" in Germany.

Kassel:

The city's name is derived from the ancient Castellum Cattorum, a castle of the Chatti (a "Chattiburgh"), a German tribe that had lived in the area since Roman times.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kassel

Knul, on 28 February 2013 - 01:43 PM, said:

<snip>

Katsburg could be identified as Katwijk (Brittenburg), which is more appropriate than Kattenburg (Amsterdam). Kassel is too far away.

<>snip

Apparently it should be far away.


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Edited by Abramelin, 01 March 2013 - 10:41 PM.

[Abramelin]

And Menno, if you still have me put on ignore because I registered on a site of White Nationalists, don't worry: they have banned me already because I was 'too Jewish' to their taste (I told them who my grandfather - mother's side -  was or might have been) and because I called them adolescents in battle with acne and frustrated because of lack of sex.