Barbarism vs. Civilization

[Bracket]

I've recently been reading up on the "Lovecraft Circle", and some corrospondence between two members of the group has caught my attention. It is an argument between writers H.P. Lovecraft (creator of the Cthulhu Mythos) and Robert E. Howard (creator of Conan the Barbarian) about whether the world is inherently barbaric or civilized, and which way it will go. Howard held that civilization was inherently corrupt and fragile. This attitude is summed up in a line from his short story, "Beyond the Black River": "Barbarism is the natural state of mankind. Civilization is unnatural. It is a whim of circumstance. And barbarism must always ultimately triumph." Lovecraft held the opposite viewpoint, that civilization as the peak of human achievement and the only way forward, stating in letters "All I care about is the civilisation the state of development and organisation which is capable of gratifying the complex mental-emotional-aesthetic needs of highly evolved and acutely sensitive men", and felt that anything that stands in the way of the flowering of a rich and harmonious culture can, and should, be thrown aside for the betterment of mankind.

Both sides can possibly be seen, with crime rates climbing and people turning a blind eye to destructive actions like polution, yet at the same time, science (a product of a more civilized society) has found ways to prolong and better our lives, not to mention that people are generally relatively respectful of others. Essentially, out and out chaos is really not a norm of everyday life. So, barbarism being a brutal, cruel, warlike and insensitive society, and civilization being defined as a cultured, defined, developed and matured society, what are your thoughts? Which are we now and which will we be in the future?

Edited December 10, 2010 by Bracket

[xYlvax]

I thought about this for a few minutes before posting. I believe we are a civilization now, with aspects of barbarism, such as pollution as mentioned, war, hate, crimes, poverty drugs, and weapons. But, with this barbarism, many have a taste for the beauty in life, such as love, art, music, philosophy, education, mercy, nature, and such. It is a balanced world, but if barbarism tips the balance, the world may fall to it, but never for eternity, because mankind will always lust after a hope for beauty and love. Civilization will endure and fall, but never to complete anarchy. We can pick ourselves back up, and we shall if all we know falls to ruins. This is what I believe.

It can be synonymous to a person's life. Since I can only hold my perspective, I can explain from my viewpoint.

I've enjoyed drinking, doing drugs, chaos, hate, sadness, and complete and utter ruin. But, I may pick myself up from it by hoping and dreaming for my "civilization", which would be music, love, philosophy, travel, beauty, art, language, and friendship. "Barbarism" can raid me until the brink of death, and flicker of "civilization" will hit me and I will find myself enthralled in the good prospects of life once again. It is an on and off thing, but without barbarism, there is no civilization, and just the opposite.

[The Mule]

The power of reason, the top of the heap

We're the ones who can kill the things we don't eat

Sharper than a serpent's tongue

Tighter than a bongo drum

Quicker than a one-night stand

Slicker than a mambo band

And now the day is come

Soon he will be released

Glory hallelujah!

We're building the Perfect Beast

(building, building, etc..)

It's Olympus this time- Olympus or bust

For we have met the enemy -and he is us

And now the day is come

Soon he will be released

Glory hallelujah!

We're building the Perfect Beast

(Building, Building)

Ever since we crawled out of the ocean

and stood upright on the land

There are some things that we just don't understand:

Relieve all pain and suffering

and lift us out of the dark

Turn us all into Methuselah-

But where are we gonna park?

(Building, Building)

The secrets of eternity-

We've found the lock and turned the key

We're shakin' up those building blocks

Going deeper into that box- (Pandora wouldn't like it)

And now the day is come

Soon he will be released

Glory hallelujah!

We're building the Perfect Beast

(building, building)

All the way to Malibu from the Land of the Talking Drum-

Just look how far-look how far we've come (Cue the mushroom cloud)

Don Henley

Count me on the barbaric side....

Edited December 10, 2010 by The Mule

[xYlvax]

The power of reason, the top of the heap

We're the ones who can kill the things we don't eat

Sharper than a serpent's tongue

Tighter than a bongo drum

Quicker than a one-night stand

Slicker than a mambo band

And now the day is come

Soon he will be released

Glory hallelujah!

We're building the Perfect Beast

(building, building, etc..)

It's Olympus this time- Olympus or bust

For we have met the enemy -and he is us

And now the day is come

Soon he will be released

Glory hallelujah!

We're building the Perfect Beast

(Building, Building)

Ever since we crawled out of the ocean

and stood upright on the land

There are some things that we just don't understand:

Relieve all pain and suffering

and lift us out of the dark

Turn us all into Methuselah-

But where are we gonna park?

(Building, Building)

The secrets of eternity-

We've found the lock and turned the key

We're shakin' up those building blocks

Going deeper into that box- (Pandora wouldn't like it)

And now the day is come

Soon he will be released

Glory hallelujah!

We're building the Perfect Beast

(building, building)

All the way to Malibu from the Land of the Talking Drum-

Just look how far-look how far we've come (Cue the mushroom cloud)

Don Henley

Count me on the barbaric side....

I quite enjoyed your poem. So ominous and powerful.

[TheMcGuffin]

I'd say that faith in civilization went through a crisis in the 20th Century and has never really recovered. Think about all the events that caused such doubts to arise: the world wars, the Great Depression, Nazism, Stalinism, Auschwitz, Hiroshima, Pol Pot, genocide in Bosnia, Rwanda, etc, etc. Gandhi once said of Western Civilization that he thought it would be a good idea, while he said of Christianity that he loved Christ but couldn't stand Christians.

Personally, I think there has been a great deal of progress in the last 200 years, especially in science, technology and medicine, but in morality, politics, economics and culture not so much.

[redhen]

"Civilization is unnatural. It is a whim of circumstance. And barbarism must always ultimately triumph."

Conan rocks, TechnoViking approves this message. I don't know about the inevitability of barbarism, but I agree civilization (modern megacities) is unnatural. Anthropology shows us that we evolved in groups of a few hundred members, that's our natural local population baseline.

Lovecraft's view is elitist or Nietzschen. (is that a word?)

I agree with zoologist Desmond Morris, the cities are not concrete jungles, but human zoos, and they suck, like all zoos.

http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=6600330421430506831#

[SlimJim22]

Humans are social animals so it is no wonder we like to live around other people. Most of us anyway. However, the key to an ideal society is a balance between civilization and wilderness imo. We can have mega cities but they should seek to lessen their impact on the surrounding wilderness that should be respected. Tis is not happening as green belts are continually eroded for housing when I would prefer cities to become even more densley populated. This may seem to defy logic but if you think of potential threats like colony collapse syndrome, and the impact on the worlds food resources, you see how finely balanced our civilization is and how dependent on nature we are.

Barbarians are only one aspect of the wilderness and the idea of the noble savage is an intriguing one in post modern terms. Contrast it with the greedy bankers who take more than what they need. They are the barbarians of today imo.

[Bracket]

Conan rocks, TechnoViking approves this message. I don't know about the inevitability of barbarism, but I agree civilization (modern megacities) is unnatural. Anthropology shows us that we evolved in groups of a few hundred members, that's our natural local population baseline.

I actually disagree with that. Technology, and our psychological evolution, grows when we are closer together. That's why smaller groups of people, like small towns and tribes, tend to be less advanced, in society and technology, than people who come together in large groups. The advent of large cities and technology, is a natural step in our evolution. We've used this to better our shortcomings. I'll give you an example. I'm the kind of person who's terrible at direction so my parents got me a GPS for christmas, and one time i picked up my uncle and he said i should use the GPS less so that i can learn directions naturally. The thing is that, in my 24 years, i've never been good at direction and (lets face it) never will be. I consider the GPS as an example of how we use technology to help our shortcomings. The bottom line is that our understanding, and learning, grows when we're together.

[redhen]

I actually disagree with that. Technology, and our psychological evolution, grows when we are closer together.

Technological advancement yes, psychological no. Our technology and exponential population growth has only come in the last 2 -3 hundred years or so, a blink of an eye in evolutionary terms. Our psychological/sociological advancements have not kept up the pace. This is one of the first things Desmond Morris points out in that video I posted.

The thing is that, in my 24 years, i've never been good at direction and (lets face it) never will be. I consider the GPS as an example of how we use technology to help our shortcomings. The bottom line is that our understanding, and learning, grows when we're together.

This is like building a refrigerated room, and then cooking over an open fire in it.

The GPS is a replacement for the natural powers of observation and tracking skills we once had in hunter-gatherer groups.

[Bracket]

Technological advancement yes, psychological no. Our technology and exponential population growth has only come in the last 2 -3 hundred years or so, a blink of an eye in evolutionary terms. Our psychological/sociological advancements have not kept up the pace. This is one of the first things Desmond Morris points out in that video I posted.

This is like building a refrigerated room, and then cooking over an open fire in it.

The GPS is a replacement for the natural powers of observation and tracking skills we once had in hunter-gatherer groups.

Yes, and i think technological, and social, growth can help with that. Don't forget, it's only 10% of the population that does 67% of violent acts.

But tracking, and hunting and gathering is a form of the past. It's part of barbarism.

Edited December 10, 2010 by Bracket

[redhen]

Yes, and i think technological, and social, growth can help with that. Don't forget, it's only 10% of the population that does 67% of violent acts.

It's not just the everyday overt mayhem and murder in a metropolis, there's a problem with how we treat people as a whole when crowded together with millions of strangers. Someone laying down in a city street will be stepped over and avoided as opposed to a village street where help is immediate, and no it's not just the Bystander phenomenon as explained in psychology textbooks. Again, this is presented in the beginning of the video I posted. I realize it's 50 min long, you don't have to watch the whole thing. The main points are right at the beginning of the film.

But tracking, and hunting and gathering is a form of the past. It's part of barbarism.

No it's not. Those skills are used for survival everyday in some cultures. Even in our "civilized" modern societies we can see the ingrained necessity to use these skills and the approved outlets for it; "sport" hunting/fishing, paintball, and of course the Boy Scouts (worldwide).

[Bracket]

It's not just the everyday overt mayhem and murder in a metropolis, there's a problem with how we treat people as a whole when crowded together with millions of strangers. Someone laying down in a city street will be stepped over and avoided as opposed to a village street where help is immediate, and no it's not just the Bystander phenomenon as explained in psychology textbooks. Again, this is presented in the beginning of the video I posted. I realize it's 50 min long, you don't have to watch the whole thing. The main points are right at the beginning of the film.

No it's not. Those skills are used for survival everyday in some cultures. Even in our "civilized" modern societies we can see the ingrained necessity to use these skills and the approved outlets for it; "sport" hunting/fishing, paintball, and of course the Boy Scouts (worldwide).

Well, i'm not saying it'll be a perfect utopian society. That's obviously impossible.

Yes, SOME more isolated cultures that i've already talked about. And, "sport" is the key word there.

[redhen]

Well, i'm not saying it'll be a perfect utopian society. That's obviously impossible.

I wouldn't say impossible, I'd say highly implausible. Let me preempt another potential counter claim; I'm not saying that anything that is accord with nature is good, that's the naturalistic fallacy.

I'm just looking at the evidence from population experiments with lab rats (why scientists have to use non-human animals to prove the obvious is beyond me), the more crowded the environment the more the rats become violent and stressed. It really is that simple.

[Bracket]

I wouldn't say impossible, I'd say highly implausible. Let me preempt another potential counter claim; I'm not saying that anything that is accord with nature is good, that's the naturalistic fallacy.

I'm just looking at the evidence from population experiments with lab rats (why scientists have to use non-human animals to prove the obvious is beyond me), the more crowded the environment the more the rats become violent and stressed. It really is that simple.

I think a utopian society is highly impossible, but i do think we can better ourselves.

Well, i would highly question them using rats, since they don't have many psychological conditionings we have.

[Bracket]

I thought about this for a few minutes before posting. I believe we are a civilization now, with aspects of barbarism, such as pollution as mentioned, war, hate, crimes, poverty drugs, and weapons. But, with this barbarism, many have a taste for the beauty in life, such as love, art, music, philosophy, education, mercy, nature, and such. It is a balanced world, but if barbarism tips the balance, the world may fall to it, but never for eternity, because mankind will always lust after a hope for beauty and love. Civilization will endure and fall, but never to complete anarchy. We can pick ourselves back up, and we shall if all we know falls to ruins. This is what I believe.

So, you basically believe that we are more inclined to lean toward being civilized?

[rashore]

I think we as a species, have advanced a great deal, but have not evolved much.

Part of human nature is to be barbaric. We need to be, to survive, and no matter how civilized we get, we still need that drive.

We also need to be civilized too, and that is part of our nature. There are loners, yep. But most of us like to group, from pack to hive.

It's a tricky balance. I think more people are getting it. But there are still lots of people that really don't.

[Black Hound]

Oh my that is a question, isn't it. Being pretty familiar with the works of both, both are darn sure interesting as a member to be a part of, to just watch and see how successful each can be in screwing up, destroying themselves before another "advanced culture" does it for them, or seeing total anarchy rule for a couple of thousand years and see what life form comes out on top or maybe nobody will care. That would be a real b***h.

[Bracket]

I think we as a species, have advanced a great deal, but have not evolved much.

Part of human nature is to be barbaric. We need to be, to survive, and no matter how civilized we get, we still need that drive.

We also need to be civilized too, and that is part of our nature. There are loners, yep. But most of us like to group, from pack to hive.

It's a tricky balance. I think more people are getting it. But there are still lots of people that really don't.

So, how do you think we'll be in the future?

[rashore]

So, how do you think we'll be in the future?

If we pull our collective heads out of our butts we may be able to continue to exist on this planet.. if not, we won't.

[The Mule]

So, how do you think we'll be in the future?

We still point nukes at each other, parents kill their own children...

Nothing has changed. We just get better at killing one another. Building the perfect beast....

but then I'm a cynic.....

[Bracket]

Do you guys think society has actually gotten worse as time has gone on?

[SlimJim22]

Do you guys think society has actually gotten worse as time has gone on?

How do you judge? We have better health and access to nice food but some people still manage to overdo it. In the old days you didn't have much obesity but there was probably a lot more famine.

We have greater access to luxury goods but there is more inequality in the world than ever. With gifts come responsibilities and technology supporting civilization are gifts. We could easily get our house in order it is just a case of a selfless majority taking the wheel. That is not communism by the way.

Society appears to come in waves to me and in many ways we are at a high point but around the corner it could collapse. Lots of problems but progression dictates it is better now than it has ever been in general but ask people struggling and they would hardly agree. A utopia is where fairness is the norm.

[TheMcGuffin]

Do you guys think society has actually gotten worse as time has gone on?

Yes and no. There has been a great deal of progress in medicine, although not in every country or region of the world. In the past, only 5% of the population lived to age 60, child birth was one of the leading causes of death in women, and in many places the majority of children did not survive to adulthood. So there has been progress in a way, although it has also led to a population explosion. Even today, the majority of people in the world are still born into poverty and will die in poverty, and that hasn't improved much in many parts of the world.

Obviously there has been all kinds of progress in machines, computers, transportation, communications and so on that people could not even have imagined 200 years ago. Of course, all that has also put a great strain on the environment and natural resources, even though the majority of people in the world are still too poor to afford all of these modern things. They consume little more than the subsistence level.

I'd say politically, the European Union has been one of the few real examples of progress in modern times since there used to be wars all the time in Europe but there have been almost none since 1945. That turned out to be a great success, although no other region of the world has ever been able to replicate it.

[Bracket]

Let's not forget that wars are less frequent, and not as large as they used to be. Or that we've really gotten away from religious dogma, like witch hunts and persecusion. Racism is also much lower than it used to be. I think we've actually taken more steps forward, then back. I actually agree with Lovecraft. I think we've actually progressed, and will continue to. It will take a while of course.

[SlimJim22]

Let's not forget that wars are less frequent, and not as large as they used to be. Or that we've really gotten away from religious dogma, like witch hunts and persecusion. Racism is also much lower than it used to be. I think we've actually taken more steps forward, then back. I actually agree with Lovecraft. I think we've actually progressed, and will continue to. It will take a while of course.

I agree. However, you could argue that the fears and dangers are of a much greater magnitude. This in turn may make us more susceptible to being manipulated. Do we let go of rights to freedom in the name of greater progress? Is preemptive war justifiable if it extends the length of progress? I wonder what Lovecraft would have thought.

Can we ever go too far? What checks are in place to stop this? I sugget it used to be religion who to some extent dictate ethics but now it is corporations who have the control. They don't share the same view of ethics so will probably not take this into account. We are all becoming 'just numbers', is this real progress or is this the high point and from here it is downhill?