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Yes: there will be an EU In / Out referendum

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#46    TSS

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Posted 24 January 2013 - 06:37 PM

View Postkeithisco, on 24 January 2013 - 05:12 PM, said:

The real problem with his speech was that it was bereft of any detail.

I would like to hear from him:

1.  Exactly which parts of the Treaties he wants to re-negotiate?
2.  What would constitute a "successful" outcome (the people need to be able to Measure the outcome against something, even a minimum requirement to claim success)?
3.  Why the negotiations are not even to begin unless and until he wins the next general Election (this will be 2+ wasted years)?
4.  What does he see as the "fall-back" position if the UK exits the EU?
5.  Will there be parallel negotiations during the negotiations, to join another free - trade area?
6.  How will an EU exit impact on UK Citizens who are living abroad under the Right to Abode under current EU Rules - will they be compensated for any Financial Losses as a result?
7.  How will a UK EU exit impact on other EU Citizens who are living in the UK under the Right to Abode under current EU Rules - will they be compensated for any Financial Losses as a result?

As for question 1 - The working time directive appears one issue he wants renegotiating on. From my view it's a fair point, we should decide in our own parliament how many hours can be worked, quite why the EU are adamant that it should be the same across he board i'm not to sure - any ideas what the thinking on this is?

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#47    Br Cornelius

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Posted 24 January 2013 - 06:53 PM

View PostSky Scanner, on 24 January 2013 - 06:37 PM, said:

As for question 1 - The working time directive appears one issue he wants renegotiating on. From my view it's a fair point, we should decide in our own parliament how many hours can be worked, quite why the EU are adamant that it should be the same across he board i'm not to sure - any ideas what the thinking on this is?
Maybe its to protect the rights of workers who have no choice in the hours they work and  who are forced into virtual sweat shop conditions.

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#48    keithisco

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Posted 24 January 2013 - 06:56 PM

View PostSky Scanner, on 24 January 2013 - 06:37 PM, said:

As for question 1 - The working time directive appears one issue he wants renegotiating on. From my view it's a fair point, we should decide in our own parliament how many hours can be worked, quite why the EU are adamant that it should be the same across he board i'm not to sure - any ideas what the thinking on this is?

What I dont understand is that the UK already has an opt - out on this directive if you are self - employed, or can set your own hours of work.then the Directive does not apply.

Personally speaking, I think 48 hrs a week is a lot of time, and this limit is there to protect people with little or no right to refuse working  longer hours. What I would like to see is a mechanism whereby individuals can elect to work longer hours as long as there are national safeguards to prevent employers from taking advantage of this, by making it a condition of employment. This used to be a regular feature in the UK, if you weren't prepared to work the hours demanded then you didn't get the job.

In France, the maximum hours for working is set at 35Hrs per week, so there is no "one size fits all" argument here.


#49    Render

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Posted 25 January 2013 - 09:24 AM

Cameron hopes for EU reform legacy


Quote

Prime Minister David Cameron says he wants to be remembered as the person who secured Britain's place in a reformed European Union.

http://www.bbc.co.uk...litics-21191468

Such a bloated dumbass.


#50    itsnotoutthere

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Posted 25 January 2013 - 09:59 AM

View PostBr Cornelius, on 24 January 2013 - 06:19 PM, said:

Tony Blair was Thatcher lite - a very despicable person all together.
The only thing the labour party attempted to do in their time in office was soften the burden of Neo_liberal economics, they did this through a set of ineffective social programs. Meanwhile they continued the grand British tradition of ignoring the industrial base of the economy and favouring the spivs in the city through allowing speculative investment bubbles to create the illusion of wealth (housing mainly). Maybe its because they were drawn from the same public school boy stock as their Tory successors. Rearranging the deck chairs on the sinking Titanic whilst the investment bankers quietly board their pre-ordered lifeboats and slip away with the spoils of 3 decades of profiteering through asset stripping.

I am no fan of the Labour party over their recent history - cowards and intellectual cripples.
Do not assume I am as partizan as yourself.

Br Cornelius

Fair enough, but regarding my other point, as a champion of the down trodden masses & critic of the ruling elite, how do you reconcile leaving the decision with the ruling elite whilst denying the masses a chance to make their choice? Afterall, the people of Ireland were allowed to vote. ( admittedly when the vote went against the EU they were told to go away & do it again).

Edited by itsnotoutthere, 25 January 2013 - 10:00 AM.

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#51    Br Cornelius

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Posted 25 January 2013 - 11:22 AM

View Postitsnotoutthere, on 25 January 2013 - 09:59 AM, said:

Fair enough, but regarding my other point, as a champion of the down trodden masses & critic of the ruling elite, how do you reconcile leaving the decision with the ruling elite whilst denying the masses a chance to make their choice? Afterall, the people of Ireland were allowed to vote. ( admittedly when the vote went against the EU they were told to go away & do it again).
The debate has become so poisoned over the last two decades that unfortunately asking the people to pronounce on something of which they have virtually no understanding is not going to produce an informed decision or the best outcome.
Unfortunately in the case of the Irish vote it was similar situation, the population were hurting after the property bubble had just imploded and they were looking for someone to blame. There is still a prevailing attitude that the EU has imposed a terrible fate on the Irish nation, when in fact it lifted us out of abject poverty. The Irish people on mass caused the economic crisis we currently face and there is a desperate desire to find a scapegoat to blame for our own stupidity - the EU represents a perfect kicking boy for a nation in self imposed pain.


If I thought it were possible for the facts of the history and future of the EU to be honestly debated and assessed then I would be all for a referendum - but it aint going to happen and the referendum aint going to be offered because Cameron knows it.

Ultimately the effort to remodel the EU into something more like Britain won't happen, and it wouldn't be a good thing if it did(because Britaisn recent economic history has been one of slow decline and financial gambling on a vast scale), so maybe it really is time for you all to sling your hook. Be prepared for England to do it alone though as the anti-EU sentiment is a particularely English thing.

Br Cornelius

Edited by Br Cornelius, 25 January 2013 - 11:30 AM.

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#52    shaddow134

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Posted 25 January 2013 - 07:19 PM

http://beta.dailyexp...50-000-each-day

Welcome to the Fourth Reich,Brussels now set to bully the UK into imposing new Energy laws which in real terms makes gas and electricity more expensive.This is why the UK should get out.What a bunch of a**holes,a raging ball of Puss on the skin of the World...

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#53    Br Cornelius

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Posted 25 January 2013 - 08:25 PM

View Postshaddow134, on 25 January 2013 - 07:19 PM, said:

http://beta.dailyexp...50-000-each-day

Welcome to the Fourth Reich,Brussels now set to bully the UK into imposing new Energy laws which in real terms makes gas and electricity more expensive.This is why the UK should get out.What a bunch of a**holes,a raging ball of Puss on the skin of the World...
The directive which you speak of are designed to introduce more competition and cross boarder trade into the energy market - which will reduce consumer prices.
The Daily Express is misinforming the public about what is going on here - what a surprise. By not implementing the directives the UK government is ensuring higher prices and costing the British Tax payer through fines.

Nice.

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#54    stevewinn

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Posted 26 January 2013 - 10:17 AM

View PostBr Cornelius, on 25 January 2013 - 11:22 AM, said:

The debate has become so poisoned over the last two decades that unfortunately asking the people to pronounce on something of which they have virtually no understanding is not going to produce an informed decision or the best outcome.
Unfortunately in the case of the Irish vote it was similar situation, the population were hurting after the property bubble had just imploded and they were looking for someone to blame. There is still a prevailing attitude that the EU has imposed a terrible fate on the Irish nation, when in fact it lifted us out of abject poverty. The Irish people on mass caused the economic crisis we currently face and there is a desperate desire to find a scapegoat to blame for our own stupidity - the EU represents a perfect kicking boy for a nation in self imposed pain.


If I thought it were possible for the facts of the history and future of the EU to be honestly debated and assessed then I would be all for a referendum - but it aint going to happen and the referendum aint going to be offered because Cameron knows it.

Ultimately the effort to remodel the EU into something more like Britain won't happen, and it wouldn't be a good thing if it did(because Britaisn recent economic history has been one of slow decline and financial gambling on a vast scale), so maybe it really is time for you all to sling your hook. Be prepared for England to do it alone though as the anti-EU sentiment is a particularely English thing.

Br Cornelius

the referendum question is simple, its not a Yes No. its a question of do you want to become a province of a federal EU. the UK does not like or support the idea of a ever closer union. which the euro zone countries are moving towards - and have to if the EU/euro zone is to survive. that is why the UK is trying to shape the future of the EU. The debate about trade etc. is not here nor there that was a debate for 1973 - 75 not now, - at what price should the UK pay to remain a EU member on terms we dont agree with, terms of a ever increasing unity. i thought Cameron had it right when he talks about the future direction of the EU. the EU should be able to take on the biggest economies in the world, but growth in the EU is in tatters.

The EU's solution to all its problems, problems of its own making is for ever greater unity. more powers and more treaties. just look at their performance so far. doesn't fill you with confidence at all. - so with that said, the question is will the EU reform? if not then the UK, will not allow itself to become a province of a federal union. were not going to adopt the euro currency. the position for us is becoming untenable. the EU reforms or we leave. and we wont be the last to do so. mark my words.

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#55    Frank Merton

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Posted 26 January 2013 - 11:34 AM

I am uneasy about parts of the globe forming trade blocks.  It does good for those inside but largely by hurting those outside.


#56    questionmark

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Posted 26 January 2013 - 12:21 PM

View PostFrank Merton, on 26 January 2013 - 11:34 AM, said:

I am uneasy about parts of the globe forming trade blocks.  It does good for those inside but largely by hurting those outside.

Let me put it drastically to you: The choice of small countries is either get together or douse their head in Vaseline and creep up the butt of India, China, Russia or the USA.

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#57    Frank Merton

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Posted 26 January 2013 - 12:38 PM

View Postquestionmark, on 26 January 2013 - 12:21 PM, said:

Let me put it drastically to you: The choice of small countries is either get together or douse their head in Vaseline and creep up the butt of India, China, Russia or the USA.
One could perhaps play them off against each other; its what small countries have done for ages.  Of course one cooperates with one's neighbors in doing this -- ASEAN is the local effort at this.  Unfortunately the Europeans seem to be a rich man's club designed to keep others out -- especially farmers.


#58    questionmark

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Posted 26 January 2013 - 01:10 PM

View PostFrank Merton, on 26 January 2013 - 12:38 PM, said:

One could perhaps play them off against each other; its what small countries have done for ages.  Of course one cooperates with one's neighbors in doing this -- ASEAN is the local effort at this.  Unfortunately the Europeans seem to be a rich man's club designed to keep others out -- especially farmers.

Works for a while, as long as your interests are put behind their interests. And no, the Europeans are an European interests club, just as Vietnam is a Vietnamese interest club. Country by country on its own they could hardly afford being that.

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#59    keithisco

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Posted 26 January 2013 - 07:31 PM

View Poststevewinn, on 26 January 2013 - 10:17 AM, said:

the referendum question is simple, its not a Yes No. its a question of do you want to become a province of a federal EU. the UK does not like or support the idea of a ever closer union. which the euro zone countries are moving towards - and have to if the EU/euro zone is to survive. that is why the UK is trying to shape the future of the EU. The debate about trade etc. is not here nor there that was a debate for 1973 - 75 not now, - at what price should the UK pay to remain a EU member on terms we dont agree with, terms of a ever increasing unity. i thought Cameron had it right when he talks about the future direction of the EU. the EU should be able to take on the biggest economies in the world, but growth in the EU is in tatters.

The EU's solution to all its problems, problems of its own making is for ever greater unity. more powers and more treaties. just look at their performance so far. doesn't fill you with confidence at all. - so with that said, the question is will the EU reform? if not then the UK, will not allow itself to become a province of a federal union. were not going to adopt the euro currency. the position for us is becoming untenable. the EU reforms or we leave. and we wont be the last to do so. mark my words.

NO.. it is quite simple "YES - if you wish to remain a member of the EU under these re-negotiated terms, or NO - if you do not wish to remain a member of the EU under these re-negotiated terms"

Nothiing to do with Federalism, or a Federated Union, nothing whatsoever to do with the Eurozone. None of these things were stated by Cameron, but already you are trying to insinuate these scare tactics into what will be a simple vote (BTW.. I do not believe there will be a vote no matter who wins the next election)


#60    Queen in the North

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Posted 26 January 2013 - 09:48 PM

So do the Conservatives have to win an overall majority next time around for this referendum to become an actual possibility?

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