11638 replies to this topic

[Otharus]

I must have missed all the fun exploring Vienna...



Why don't you re-post on your new weblog, Abe?

[Abramelin]

Otharus, on 16 November 2011 - 07:58 PM, said:

I must have missed all the fun exploring Vienna...



Why don't you re-post on your new weblog, Abe?

* snip *

Anyway, it was all about a book written by Arthur de Gobineau, and I saw it as a possible source of the Three Races (yes indeedy) as described in the OLB.

He also said that the people living in the north of India were of 'the yellow race'. You will remember the Finda - the yellow race according to the OLB - living near (coming from) the Himalaya.

And in case this post will be removed too, this is what I also posted:

Hitler and Nazism borrowed much of Gobineau's ideology, though Gobineau himself was not anti-Semitic, and may even be characterised as philo-Semitic. Gobineau wrote positively about the Jews, including the long eulogy to the Jews in his Essai sur l'inégalité des races, describing them as "a strong, a free, an intelligent people".[7] When the Nazis adopted Gobineau's theories, they were forced to edit his work extensively to make it conform to their views, much as they did in the case of Nietzsche.

http://en.wikipedia....hur_de_Gobineau

+++++++++


OK, sorry, but what happened this evening bothers me a lot...

I have called you, Otharus, and Alewyn 'true believers', but never in my dreams would I have accused the two of you or anyone else believing in the OLB of being neo-Nazis just because the Nazis abused the OLB to suit their perverse ideology.

Like I never accused anyone believing in the writings of Helen Blavatsky of being a racist. And she sure as hell was.

.

Edited by Saru, 17 November 2011 - 10:10 AM.
Removed personal attack

[Alewyn]

Knul, on 16 November 2011 - 05:17 PM, said:

You have well observed, that the OLB dating (I call it AT = Atland) ties in with the known date of the campaign of Alexander the Great. Similarly the OLB dating of the visit of Ulysses to Walhallagara (burchtfam Kalip = Calypso) lines up with the end of the Trojan war (traditionally ca. 1180) 1005 years after Atland had sunken (2193 - 1005 = 1188). This does not proof, that the dates of the OLB are correct, but that the author used known dates for his story. Every student of the so called Latin Schools knew these dates.  

Troy was ruled by Heracleid dynasty, for 505 years until the time of Candaules. The generation before the Trojan War, Heracles captured Troy and killed Laomedon and his sons, except for young Priam. Priam later became king and during his reign, the Greeks invaded and captured Troy, in the Trojan War, 1193–1183 BCE, most recently dated to 1188 BCE.
s. http://www.hector.co...p?listingID=14.

Thank you Knul.
You have just confirmed what I have been saying all along: The date of 1188 BC used by the OLB was not known in the 19th century. The website you quote says very clearly:"MOST RECENTLY DATED TO 1188 BCE".

In the 19th century, Troy was regarded as a myth. It was only discovered after the OLB and was only dated late in the 20th century.

Now tell me: How did the OLB get this spot on?

This also confirms the date of 2193 BC.

[The Puzzler]

Abramelin, on 16 November 2011 - 03:21 PM, said:

Etymology

From Kaleva +‎ -la = dwelling place of Kaleva (or, of the descendants of Kaleva).

http://en.wiktionary...evala#Etymology


It might also have something to do with "blacksmith"

"KALEVA, fictional ancestor or "father" of several personalities, male and female, mostly "Kaleva sons....." and read on.

http://books.google....ymology&f=false

Kaleva, some obsure mythical giant.

But black also comes up for Kali, as does time and death.

Blacksmith is unusual, because to me, that relates to Hephaestus, often said to have really been a meteorite, as the iron itself was the God, the smith. He was thrown out of Heaven by Hera is also alluding to a fall from the skies.

[The Puzzler]

Maybe ALewyn has taken some liberty with his precise date but in general, it's fairly obvious some big changes were occurring, possible impacts, famine, drying out of the Sahara's last green areas, downfalls of Empires and cultures, great floods in China, all around this date.


Abe, I wouldn't worry about it too much.

[Alewyn]

cormac mac airt, on 16 November 2011 - 06:54 PM, said:

I am certain YOU have it within you to be relevant to the facts, NOW would be a great time for you to do so.  

cormac

Perhaps you would be so kind as to share the “facts” with us and I could then perhaps try "to be relevant" to them.

Edited by Alewyn, 17 November 2011 - 10:39 AM.

[Alewyn]

The Puzzler, on 17 November 2011 - 09:09 AM, said:

Maybe ALewyn has taken some liberty with his precise date but in general, it's fairly obvious some big changes were occurring, possible impacts, famine, drying out of the Sahara's last green areas, downfalls of Empires and cultures, great floods in China, all around this date.


Abe, I wouldn't worry about it too much.

No Puzzler, I have not taken liberty with the date. It is the date that the OLB gives as the start of its calendar.

I have verified it, inter alia, through the campaigns of Alexander, the sacking of Troy, Biblical chronology, the Manhattan Tsunami, the Battle of Salamis and a host of other historical facts. You have my book - check it out.

Edit:
The question is not whether the date is right. I think both Abramelin and Knul accept the date. Knull said as much a few posts back. Abramelin said some time ago that the date was known in the 19th century. Many people also claimed that the person(s)who created the book used Biblical chronology and/or the Frisian Volksalmanak (National Calendar) of the time.
The question is really where did the authors get it from and, more importantly, when?

Edited by Alewyn, 17 November 2011 - 10:42 AM.

[Knul]

Alewyn, on 17 November 2011 - 07:32 AM, said:

Thank you Knul.
You have just confirmed what I have been saying all along: The date of 1188 BC used by the OLB was not known in the 19th century. The website you quote says very clearly:"MOST RECENTLY DATED TO 1188 BCE".

In the 19th century, Troy was regarded as a myth. It was only discovered after the OLB and was only dated late in the 20th century.

Now tell me: How did the OLB get this spot on?

This also confirms the date of 2193 BC.

The Trojan War has been dated as soon as the text of Homer became known, even in Roman times. In the 16th and 17th century it was thought, that the Trojan War happened in the 12th century BC. In the 19th century ca. 1180 BC was generally accepted. Dating was based on literary evidence, not on archeology. The first indications, that Troje could be found at Hissarlik date back to 1822, fifty years before Schliemann started his excavations. Excavations showed, that the myth of the Trojan War might have an historical basis.

[Abramelin]

Alewyn, on 17 November 2011 - 07:32 AM, said:

Thank you Knul.
You have just confirmed what I have been saying all along: The date of 1188 BC used by the OLB was not known in the 19th century. The website you quote says very clearly:"MOST RECENTLY DATED TO 1188 BCE".

In the 19th century, Troy was regarded as a myth. It was only discovered after the OLB and was only dated late in the 20th century.

Now tell me: How did the OLB get this spot on?

This also confirms the date of 2193 BC.

I'll tell you what happened:

This is what Knul posted:

Troy was ruled by Heracleid dynasty, for 505 years until the time of Candaules. The generation before the Trojan War, Heracles captured Troy and killed Laomedon and his sons, except for young Priam. Priam later became king and during his reign, the Greeks invaded and captured Troy, in the Trojan War, 1193–1183 BCE, most recently dated to 1188 BCE.

http://www.hector.co...p?listingID=14.

This is what I found:

Those who believe that the stories of the Trojan War are derived from a specific historical conflict usually date it to the 12th or 11th centuries BC, often preferring the dates given by Eratosthenes, 1194–1184 BC, which roughly corresponds with archaeological evidence of a catastrophic burning of Troy VIIa.

http://en.wikipedia....wiki/Trojan_War

The date of Trojan War is traditionally placed in the beginning of the twelfth century before the present era: this tradition goes back to Eratosthenes, a Greek scholar in the employ of Ptolemy III Euergetes in the third pre-Christian century. He calculated that the last year of the ten-year-long siege of Troy fell in the year that in the modern calendar corresponds to -1183.

http://www.varchive....dag/cogrant.htm

Later Greeks dated the Trojan War as follows: 1184 B.C. (Eratosthenes), 1209/8 B.C. (the Parian Marble), ca. 1250 B.C. (Herodotus), and 1334/3 B.C. (Douris). Troy VIIa perished in a general conflagration which destroyed both the buildings within the citadel and those outside.

http://projectsx.dar...ons/les/27.html


The scientists then searched for potential dates that satisfied all these astronomical references close to the fall of Troy, which has over the centuries been estimated to have occurred between roughly 1250 to 1115 B.C. From these 135 years, they found just one date satisfied all the references — April 16, 1178 B.C., the same date as the proposed eclipse.

http://www.msnbc.msn...ojan-war-dated/

So if you follow Eratosthenes, 1194–1184 BC, take the middle, you get 1189 BC (and not 1188 BC as Knul said, based on OLB chronology because the date of the OLB flood is 2194 BC, not 2193 BC).

Anyway, the point is that if in the 19th century you take the middle of Eratosthenes' estimates, you get 1189 BC.

You might want to ask why the creators of the OLB picked out Eratosthenes dates? Well, that's what I would have done, knowing this ancient Greek calculated the circumference of the Earth and came to a number that was almost correct.

.

.

Edited by Abramelin, 17 November 2011 - 11:48 AM.

[Abramelin]

Btw, as a reminder, this is from the "Friesche Volksalmanak from 1839:



The first underlined lines says: "The year after the birth of our Lord Jesus Christ: 1839"
The second underlined line says: "Since the Flood: 4032"

1839-4032=2193 / no year zero, so it becomes 2194 BC


+++++++++++

EDIT:

I just found a list of Friesche VolksAlmanakken (for every year from 1836 to 1899):

http://www.wumkes.nl...ndex.php?per=fa




.

Edited by Abramelin, 17 November 2011 - 11:42 AM.

[Alewyn]

Abramelin, on 17 November 2011 - 11:18 AM, said:

1839-4032=2193 / no year zero, so it becomes 2194 BC

Good. So, from your post and that of Knul, can we now accept that the OLB’s dates of 2193 BC/2194 BC and 1188 BC are correct – regardless of whether the OLB is authentic or a hoax.

[Abramelin]

Alewyn, on 17 November 2011 - 11:57 AM, said:

Good. So, from your post and that of Knul, can we now accept that the OLB’s dates of 2193 BC/2194 BC and 1188 BC are correct – regardless of whether the OLB is authentic or a hoax.

In what way you mean 'correct'?

I have only shown you where they got the 2194 BC date from (Friesche Volksalmanak), and where they got the date of the Troyan War from (Eratosthenes).

A bit extra about Eratosthenes:

Chronography became a discipline of its own during the Alexandrian age. Herodotus and Thucydides still reckoned the remote past by generations. But from 300 B.C. onward learned men of Alexandria attempted to assign more or less precise dates for notable events. Homeric scholars dated the fall of Troy 407 years prior to the first Olympic games in 776 B.C., i.e., 1184 B.C. Eratosthenes of Cyrene asserted that this was the first datable event of human history, giving an unmistakable demarcation line between mythology and history.

http://journals.camb...ine&aid=7823657


Btw, I wouldn't be surprized if the 2194 BC date for the submergence of Aldland was the same date as the date calculated for the Deucalion Flood by this same Eratosthenes.

Up tp now all I found is this:

The fourth, ‘Deucalion’s flood’, occurred in the Bronze age, around 2200 BC.

http://colinwilsonwo...o.uk/cntr8.aspx

But I don't know what to think of that site....


.

Edited by Abramelin, 17 November 2011 - 12:51 PM.

[Abramelin]

I found a date for the Ogyges Flood as calculated by the Roman Varro:

The area outside of Attica including Boeotia was called by some ancient sources Graiki,the region where is mentioned the first worldwide flood in Greek mythology,the deluge of Ogyges.The Ogygian deluge, occurred during his reign and derives its name from him,though some sources regard it as a local flood, such as an inundation of Lake Copais, a large lake once in the center of Boeotia.[5] Other sources see it as a flood associated with Attica.[6] This latter view was accepted by Africanus, who says "that great and first flood occurred in Attica, when Phoroneus was king of Argos, as Acusilaus relates.

When this deluge has been considered global, a similarity is noticed with Noah's flood in the Bible. Various dates have been assigned to the event, including 9500 BCE (Plato),[7] 2136 BCE (Varro), and 1796 BCE (Africanus).

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ogyges

2136 BC.

[Alewyn]

Knul, on 17 November 2011 - 10:53 AM, said:

The Trojan War has been dated as soon as the text of Homer became known, even in Roman times. In the 16th and 17th century it was thought, that the Trojan War happened in the 12th century BC. In the 19th century ca. 1180 BC was generally accepted. Dating was based on literary evidence, not on archeology. The first indications, that Troje could be found at Hissarlik date back to 1822, fifty years before Schliemann started his excavations. Excavations showed, that the myth of the Trojan War might have an historical basis.

This is exactly my point. The excavations that showed that Troy was not a myth, started after the discovery of the OLB.

Edit:

This is what Wikipedia has to say:

"Around 1870 it was generally agreed in Western Europe that the Trojan War never had happened and Troy never existed."

Edited by Alewyn, 17 November 2011 - 04:54 PM.

[Knul]

It shows, that the time frame of the OLB complies with what was known in the mid 19th century like the geography (Iran) of the OLB complies with what was known in the mid 19th century like the theology and philosophy (Descartes) comply with the state of the art in mid 19th century, the archeology (pile dwellings) comply, knowledge about Oldfrisian texts published by the Frisian Society comply, abolition of slavery complies, modern Dutch and English words and expressions as used  in mid 19th century, and so on. The OLB even reflects the existance of the North-Hollands Canal (1825). As all this was not known in 1256 (Hidde) or 803 (Liko) it is reasonable to suppose, that the OLB was written in the mid 19th century. All this was not available in mediaeval sources.

Edited by Knul, 17 November 2011 - 05:21 PM.