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Job Versus Paul in Two Allegories


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#16    Ben Masada

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Posted 08 February 2013 - 09:34 PM

View PostJ. K., on 08 February 2013 - 07:01 PM, said:

Ben has a vendetta against Paul.

The Scripture reference that he used for his allegory does not have Satan and God in conversation.

I Corinthians 15 does talk about resurrection from the dead: the resurrection of Jesus which is the linchpin of Christianity.  Paul is not the only one who discusses this resurrection:

My vendetta is based on the Pauline policy of Replacement Theology. And for 1 Cor. 15, I am not sure you have ever read that chapter.
Try verse 32. Just in case you don't have a Bible available, here is the text: "If the dead are not raised, let us eat and drink for tomorrow we die." He was probably giving reply to some Jewish questions about bodily resurrection which is not in the jewish agenda
but only in the gospel of Paul. (2 Tim. 2:8)

Ben


#17    Ben Masada

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Posted 08 February 2013 - 09:52 PM

View PostJ. K., on 08 February 2013 - 07:01 PM, said:



The Scripture reference that he used for his allegory does not have Satan and God in conversation.

The OT is also Scripture and it does have Satan in a conversation with God. And it does not have to. That's why it is an allegory. The point to understand is what the allegory aims for: The reason why Paul would serve God in exchange for the "treat" of the resurrection.

Ben


#18    J. K.

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Posted 08 February 2013 - 11:43 PM

View PostBen Masada, on 08 February 2013 - 09:34 PM, said:

My vendetta is based on the Pauline policy of Replacement Theology. And for 1 Cor. 15, I am not sure you have ever read that chapter.


I have, in fact, read that chapter, as well as the rest of the New Testament, multiple times.  To summarize:  That Jesus was resurrected by God is foundational to Christianity.  If Jesus did not rise from the dead, then the Gospel is useless.  But He did rise, and because of that, those who have faith in him will eventually be regenerated in body and spirit.

Quote

Try verse 32. Just in case you don't have a Bible available, here is the text: "If the dead are not raised, let us eat and drink for tomorrow we die." He was probably giving reply to some Jewish questions about bodily resurrection which is not in the jewish agenda but only in the gospel of Paul. (2 Tim. 2:8)


He was quoting from Isaiah 22, in which God called for "weeping and mourning, for baldness and girding with sackcloth."  Instead the response He got was "joy and gladness, slaying oxen and killing sheep, eating meat and drinking wine.  Let us eat and drink, for tomorrow we will die."  He was simply comparing the OT response to God with the attitude of: "Since there's no afterlife, this life is all we have, so let's party!"  He was not condoning the partying attitude.

Quote

The OT is also Scripture and it does have Satan in a conversation with God. And it does not have to. That's why it is an allegory. The point to understand is what the allegory aims for: The reason why Paul would serve God in exchange for the "treat" of the resurrection.


The "treat" of the resurrection is not the reason Christians serve God.  Read Psalm 51.

1 To the Chief Musician. A Psalm of David when Nathan the prophet went to him, after he had gone in to Bathsheba. Have mercy upon me, O God, According to Your lovingkindness; According to the multitude of Your tender mercies, Blot out my transgressions. 2 Wash me thoroughly from my iniquity, And cleanse me from my sin. 3 For I acknowledge my transgressions, And my sin is always before me. 4 Against You, You only, have I sinned, And done this evil in Your sight-- That You may be found just when You speak, And blameless when You judge. 5 Behold, I was brought forth in iniquity, And in sin my mother conceived me. 6 Behold, You desire truth in the inward parts, And in the hidden part You will make me to know wisdom. 7 Purge me with hyssop, and I shall be clean; Wash me, and I shall be whiter than snow. 8Make me hear joy and gladness, That the bones You have broken may rejoice. 9 Hide Your face from my sins, And blot out all my iniquities. 10 Create in me a clean heart, O God, And renew a steadfast spirit within me. 11 Do not cast me away from Your presence, And do not take Your Holy Spirit from me. 12Restore to me the joy of Your salvation, And uphold me by Your generous Spirit. 13 Then I will teach transgressors Your ways, And sinners shall be converted to You. 14 Deliver me from the guilt of bloodshed, O God, The God of my salvation, And my tongue shall sing aloud of Your righteousness. 15 O Lord, open my lips, And my mouth shall show forth Your praise. 16 For You do not desire sacrifice, or else I would give it; You do not delight in burnt offering. 17 The sacrifices of God are a broken spirit, A broken and a contrite heart-- These, O God, You will not despise. 18 Do good in Your good pleasure to Zion; Build the walls of Jerusalem. 19 Then You shall be pleased with the sacrifices of righteousness, With burnt offering and whole burnt offering; Then they shall offer bulls on Your altar.

Notice particularly verse 12:  "Restore to me the joy of Your salvation..."  - there is joy in the Lord! - "...and uphold me by Your generous Spirit."  We are blessed with God's presence in our lives.  Because of what we have received, we minister to others.  And we praise Him!

Jesus mentioned resurrection in Matthew 22:

29Jesus answered and said to them, "You are mistaken, not knowing the Scriptures nor the power of God.30 For in the resurrection they neither marry nor are given in marriage, but are like angels of God in heaven. 31 But concerning the resurrection of the dead, have you not read what was spoken to you by God, saying, 32 'I am the God of Abraham, the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob'? God is not the God of the dead, but of the living."

The writer of Matthew speaks of resurrection in chapter 27:

51 Then, behold, the veil of the temple was torn in two from top to bottom; and the earth quaked, and the rocks were split, 52 and the graves were opened; and many bodies of the saints who had fallen asleep were raised; 53 and coming out of the graves after His resurrection, they went into the holy city and appeared to many.

Peter mentioned resurrection in Acts 2:

30Therefore, being a prophet, and knowing that God had sworn with an oath to him that of the fruit of his body, according to the flesh, He would raise up the Christ to sit on his throne, 31 he, foreseeing this, spoke concerning the resurrection of the Christ, that His soul was not left in Hades, nor did His flesh see corruption. 32 This Jesus God has raised up, of which we are all witnesses.

All of these occur before Paul came on the scene, so, no: Paul did not invent the resurrection.

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#19    Paranoid Android

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Posted 09 February 2013 - 05:00 AM

View PostBen Masada, on 06 February 2013 - 08:26 PM, said:

Paul must have been tested somehow. Someone must have asked him something about resurrection; or something like, "What about if there
is no resurrection?" Then Paul had to flip the real side of his coin: That the real reason for his loyalty to God was his hope in the resurrection. Conditional loyalty based on the reward of an afterlife. You know, like the a tasty pellet that is given to a dog in eschange of something funny.

Ben
That is not at all the reason for Paul's loyalty.  I'll quote the post above mine because that member has elucidated the point as well as I ever could.  Maybe two people who disagree with you and say the exact same thing will help convince you that your understanding of Christianity is not as great as you think it is:

View PostJ. K., on 08 February 2013 - 11:43 PM, said:

To summarize:  That Jesus was resurrected by God is foundational to Christianity.  If Jesus did not rise from the dead, then the Gospel is useless.  But He did rise, and because of that, those who have faith in him will eventually be regenerated in body and spirit.


He was quoting from Isaiah 22, in which God called for "weeping and mourning, for baldness and girding with sackcloth."  Instead the response He got was "joy and gladness, slaying oxen and killing sheep, eating meat and drinking wine.  Let us eat and drink, for tomorrow we will die."  He was simply comparing the OT response to God with the attitude of: "Since there's no afterlife, this life is all we have, so let's party!"  He was not condoning the partying attitude.


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#20    Ben Masada

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Posted 12 February 2013 - 07:08 PM

View PostJ. K., on 08 February 2013 - 11:43 PM, said:


Quote

I have, in fact, read that chapter, as well as the rest of the New Testament, multiple times.  To summarize:  That Jesus was resurrected by God is foundational to Christianity.  If Jesus did not rise from the dead, then the Gospel is useless.  But He did rise, and because of that, those who have faith in him will eventually be regenerated in body and spirit.

I am aware that Jesus' resurrection is fundamental to Christianity. That's evidence for the gospel of Paul, the founder of Christianity. (Acts 11:26; 2 Tim. 2:8) Therefore, one needs a lot of faith to believe something not Jewish in the mind of a Jew.

Quote

He was simply comparing the OT response to God with the attitude of: "Since there's no afterlife, this life is all we have, so let's party!"  He was not condoning the partying attitude.

The testimony was Pauline and not forwarded by a third party.

Quote

The "treat" of the resurrection is not the reason Christians serve God.  Read Psalm 51.

Pity that Paul is dead and you missedd the chance to tell him so yourself.

Quote

Notice particularly verse 12:  "Restore to me the joy of Your salvation..."  - there is joy in the Lord! - "...and uphold me by Your generous Spirit."  We are blessed with God's presence in our lives.  Because of what we have received, we minister to others.  And we praise Him!

The chapter 51 of Psalms has nothing to do with resurrection, the issue of our discussion.

Quote

Jesus mentioned resurrection in Matthew 22:

Jesus mentions resurrection nowhere. He was a Jew and Jews don't believe in bodily resurrection. Don't forget that the gospels were written about 50+ years after Jesus had been gone. And they were written by Hellenists former disciples of Paul who was the one who fabricated the idea. (2 Tim. 2:8)

Quote

The writer of Matthew speaks of resurrection in chapter 27:

The writer of Matthew, not Matthew himself. This gospel attributed to him was not written by him. Read Matthew 9:9-13.

Quote

Peter mentioned resurrection in Acts 2:

That was Luke, a Hellenist disciple and constant companion of Paul's. If Peter believed in resurrection, he would have given credit to the women who reported about Jesus' resurrection. He, along with all the other Apostles rather took the idea as an idle tale of nonsense. Read Luke 24:11. Why? Because he had never heard of it from the lips of Jesus that he would ever resurrect.

Quote

All of these occur before Paul came on the scene, so, no: Paul did not invent the resurrection.

No, these all occurred when the gospels were written by the Hellenists former disciples of Paul's about 50+ years after Jesus had been gone. Pick up a NAV of the Bible and read the prefaces to each gospel. They give the dates for the time the gospels were written. And all of them attributed to the Apostles in order to enhance authority to the NT.

Ben


#21    Ben Masada

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Posted 12 February 2013 - 07:24 PM

View PostParanoid Android, on 09 February 2013 - 05:00 AM, said:

That is not at all the reason for Paul's loyalty.  I'll quote the post above mine because that member has elucidated the point as well as I ever could.  Maybe two people who disagree with you and say the exact same thing will help convince you that your understanding of Christianity is not as great as you think it is:

I am sorry PA, but no Judge can be convinced by two witnesses who know the testimonies of each other. This is way off the parameters
in a Court of Law. And with regards to Isaiah 22, again, I am sorry to remind you that the chapter has absolutely nothing to do with
resurrection. Isaiah 22:13 was indeed plagiarized by Paul but from a different context and applied to justify the reason why he served the Lord: For the reward of the resurrection.

Ben


#22    Paranoid Android

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Posted 13 February 2013 - 05:14 AM

View PostBen Masada, on 12 February 2013 - 07:08 PM, said:

Jesus mentions resurrection nowhere. He was a Jew and Jews don't believe in bodily resurrection.
It's this kind of thing that will stop us from ever having a coherent debate.  You'll quote scripture that supports your view, and have no problem believing Jesus said some things if they agree with you, and then when you demand evidence to the contrary, and someone gives it to you (this time in the form of Matthew 22) you dismiss it because it doesn't fit with your ideology - Jesus didn't say that, it was written by Hellenists who inserted that in.  For this reason, I have chosen to not reply further to anything you write.  It is futile, in my opinion you are here to preach what you believe to be true, not to share and discuss.

Edited by Paranoid Android, 13 February 2013 - 05:15 AM.

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#23    The Silver Thong

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Posted 13 February 2013 - 05:24 AM

Job was a bet between god and the devil. God won gee what a surprise.

Sittin back drinkin beer watchin the world take it's course.


The only thing god can't do is prove he exists ?

#24    J. K.

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Posted 13 February 2013 - 02:32 PM

So the entire New Testament was written or influenced by Paul, therefore it cannot be taken as a reliable source of information.  Interesting.  I guess we Gentiles are left out in the dark with no hope of ever having God in our lives?

I brought up Psalm 51 as an example of why Christians serve God.  We experience the joy of God's presence in the here and now.  Resurrection is not the sole purpose for being a Christian.  My goal as a Christian is to evangelize the lost and edify the church, thereby growing the kingdom of God.  I suppose that since those are merely Pauline concepts, I have wasted the last forty years of my life, and have drawn dozens of people into a Hellenistic cult.  

I must also have paranormal psychic power.  I don't know how many times God has given me special knowledge to speak to a person's situation in order to help them through a troubled time in their life.  I have been given, in my spirit, specific facts that I could not have otherwise known.  However, since spiritual gifts are a fictional creation, it must be that I was actually reading their minds.

May I ask you some advice?  Paul speaks much about loving one another, serving one another, comforting one another, etc.  Should I now avoid those types of activities?  Or since I'm a Gentile, does it really matter what I do in God's name?

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#25    Ben Masada

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Posted 13 February 2013 - 09:05 PM

View PostParanoid Android, on 13 February 2013 - 05:14 AM, said:

It's this kind of thing that will stop us from ever having a coherent debate.  You'll quote scripture that supports your view, and have no problem believing Jesus said some things if they agree with you, and then when you demand evidence to the contrary, and someone gives it to you (this time in the form of Matthew 22) you dismiss it because it doesn't fit with your ideology - Jesus didn't say that, it was written by Hellenists who inserted that in.  For this reason, I have chosen to not reply further to anything you write.  It is futile, in my opinion you are here to preach what you believe to be true, not to share and discuss.

PA, please try to understand this: What you say is not what I am doing. I have told you what I am doing but you seem to find too hard to realize. Let me try this way: Who in your opinion was Jesus, a religious Jewish man or a Greek? Assuming that your answer is that he was a religious Jewish man, can't you see that I am trying to defend the Jewish Faith that Jesus practiced? Bodily resurrection is not in the agenda of Judaism which was the Faith of Jesus. Tell me that Jesus was not a Jewish person and I will promptly agree with every thing you say; not question about it. See how simple it will be? You are getting frustrated for nothing.

Ben

Edited by Ben Masada, 13 February 2013 - 09:06 PM.


#26    Ben Masada

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Posted 13 February 2013 - 09:08 PM

View PostThe Silver Thong, on 13 February 2013 - 05:24 AM, said:

Job was a bet between god and the devil. God won gee what a surprise.

No ST, in the case of Job, the devil lost. He won in the case of Paul. It is in the thread.


#27    Ben Masada

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Posted 13 February 2013 - 09:38 PM

View PostJ. K., on 13 February 2013 - 02:32 PM, said:

Quote

So the entire New Testament was written or influenced by Paul, therefore it cannot be taken as a reliable source of information.  Interesting.  I guess we Gentiles are left out in the dark with no hope of ever having God in our lives?

Hey! Hold on my friend and don't let it go that fast! The reliability of the NT is for Gentiles. As a Gentile you are on the right place. But the truth is, as you say above, the entire NT was heavily influenced by Paul. What was not Pauline was discarded at the canonization of the NT. But if you are trying to reach the God of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob, you are taking the wrong road.

Quote

I brought up Psalm 51 as an example of why Christians serve God.  We experience the joy of God's presence in the here and now.  Resurrection is not the sole purpose for being a Christian.  My goal as a Christian is to evangelize the lost and edify the church, thereby growing the kingdom of God.  I suppose that since those are merely Pauline concepts, I have wasted the last forty years of my life, and have drawn dozens of people into a Hellenistic cult.

Not the sole purpose but one of the purposes for being a Christian. So, you are on the right place to seek God according to the gospel of Paul. (2 Tim. 2:8) I hate to have to agree with you on this one: Yes, 40 years of your life spent in a Hellenistic cult.  

Quote

I must also have paranormal psychic power.  I don't know how many times God has given me special knowledge to speak to a person's situation in order to help them through a troubled time in their life.  I have been given, in my spirit, specific facts that I could not have otherwise known.  However, since spiritual gifts are a fictional creation, it must be that I was actually reading their minds.

Well, that's a way to look at the issue of gifts. Psychic power. Balaam had it too although he could not pass the test of Isaiah 8:20. You know, where it says, "To the Law and the Testimony, if they don't speak according to this method, it is because there is no truth in what they say." Therefore, secular psychic power is a way out without having to wonder if you are doing the right thing.

Quote

May I ask you some advice?  Paul speaks much about loving one another, serving one another, comforting one another, etc.  Should I now avoid those types of activities?  Or since I'm a Gentile, does it really matter what I do in God's name?

Absolutely not! Non-religious people perform those activities too. Just don't do them with an eye on afterlife rewards. But it does matter what you do in God's name. The Crusades were done in God's name. The Inquisition was worked out in God's name. And so forth.

Ben




#28    J. K.

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Posted 14 February 2013 - 06:12 PM

View PostBen Masada, on 13 February 2013 - 09:38 PM, said:

Well, that's a way to look at the issue of gifts. Psychic power. Balaam had it too although he could not pass the test of Isaiah 8:20. You know, where it says, "To the Law and the Testimony, if they don't speak according to this method, it is because there is no truth in what they say." Therefore, secular psychic power is a way out without having to wonder if you are doing the right thing.

I don't quite understand that last sentence.  I'm not looking for a way out, nor am I wondering if I'm doing the right thing.

Quote

Absolutely not! Non-religious people perform those activities too. Just don't do them with an eye on afterlife rewards. But it does matter what you do in God's name. The Crusades were done in God's name. The Inquisition was worked out in God's name. And so forth.

I choose to continue doing what I have been doing, because I have verifiable proof from others that I have met needs and positively influenced the lives of hundreds of people.  I do this not because of an expected reward, but because I have compassion for people who suffer.  If there is a resurrection, I know where I'll be.  If there is no resurrection, then I'll be on my deathbed knowing that I have helped people.

One's reality is another's nightmare.

#29    Ben Masada

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Posted 14 February 2013 - 09:53 PM

View PostJ. K., on 14 February 2013 - 06:12 PM, said:


I don't quite understand that last sentence.  I'm not looking for a way out, nor am I wondering if I'm doing the right thing.

I choose to continue doing what I have been doing, because I have verifiable proof from others that I have met needs and positively influenced the lives of hundreds of people.  I do this not because of an expected reward, but because I have compassion for people who suffer.  If there is a resurrection, I know where I'll be.  If there is no resurrection, then I'll be on my deathbed knowing that I have helped people.

No, the problem is not in what you are doing which is honorable and sublime but in the reason which is propelling you into doing it.
You are not called upon to change your behavior but what motivates what you do. Your case reminds me of the preacher who said, "Do
what I tell you and not what I do because I am a sinner too." That's the preacher that must be cast out.

Ben


#30    J. K.

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Posted 14 February 2013 - 10:10 PM

View PostBen Masada, on 14 February 2013 - 09:53 PM, said:

  No, the problem is not in what you are doing which is honorable and sublime but in the reason which is propelling you into doing it.  You are not called upon to change your behavior but what motivates what you do.

????    My motivation for what I do is my compassion for people.  Why should I change that?

One's reality is another's nightmare.




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