69 replies to this topic

[_Only]

ranrod, on 18 November 2012 - 11:43 PM, said:

You are presupposing your view to be the 'real' one from the infinite choices.

I haven't stated my own view here. A god is a creator by definition. All else differs in views and religions, but the creator aspect remains the sole common factor between them all.

[ShadowSot]

C235, on 17 November 2012 - 07:43 AM, said:

It would have changed me if i thought he doesn't exist. I would have become EVIL! very EVIL! too bad he does, no?

  People like you terrify me. I believe in you and common decency much more than you do, apparently.

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I do good even if it costs me. I uphold justice even if its against me. I share my food with my enemies even if their next move is to hurt me.

I find it very odd that you consider this a mentality only found among theists. Are familiar with humanism at all?

_Only, on 19 November 2012 - 12:59 AM, said:

I haven't stated my own view here. A god is a creator by definition. All else differs in views and religions, but the creator aspect remains the sole common factor between them all.

Um... no. This is not true in Greek, Roman, Hindu, Egyptian or other mythologies. Gods vary between being superhuman immortals to simply superhuman to creators.

notoverrated, on 17 November 2012 - 05:14 AM, said:

be honest, if you knew for a fact that there was a god would you change anything?

Yes and no.
Certainly knowing he'd exist would change me. However I feel I'm on a good course for myself, and I can't change that. Certainly it'd depend on the god of course.
If it's the fellow from the OT, I'd have some serious points of contention I'd like to get answers on.
And if he asked me to kill someone, he'd have to make a good case for it.
If, for example, not killing homosexuals, letting my kids speak back, not putting aside those who'd leave me astray, ect, sent me to hell, well. So be it.

Edited by ShadowSot, 19 November 2012 - 01:13 AM.

[ranrod]

_Only, on 19 November 2012 - 12:59 AM, said:

I haven't stated my own view here. A god is a creator by definition. All else differs in views and religions, but the creator aspect remains the sole common factor between them all.

"A god is a creator" already makes huge assumptions.  There can be many gods, not all creators.  There can be no gods.  There can be an infinite amount of gods.  There can be one god but he's not a creator.  There can be hundreds of gods that each create a bit of reality.  There can be trillions of gods that each create a trillionth of reality. Etc etc etc etc.

[ShadowSot]

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There can be trillions of gods that each create a trillionth of reality.

Little gods, for creating quarks and hiding the Higgs Boson.

[_Only]

ShadowSot, on 19 November 2012 - 01:09 AM, said:

  People like you terrify me. I believe in you and common decency much more than you do, apparently.
[/background][/size][/font][/color]I find it very odd that you consider this a mentality only found among theists. Are familiar with humanism at all?



Um... no. This is not true in Greek, Roman, Hindu, Egyptian or other mythologies. Gods vary between being superhuman immortals to simply superhuman to creators.

I didn't appreciate the history lesson, but we all know that the OP is talking about a sole all powerful being behind the scenes, and most definitely not mythologies, which were symbolic metaphor. He can correct me if I'm wrong.

[_Only]

ranrod, on 19 November 2012 - 01:13 AM, said:

"A god is a creator" already makes huge assumptions.  There can be many gods, not all creators.  There can be no gods.  There can be an infinite amount of gods.  There can be one god but he's not a creator.  There can be hundreds of gods that each create a bit of reality.  There can be trillions of gods that each create a trillionth of reality. Etc etc etc etc.

You're really reaching for some reason against me now and getting into extremely abstract territory, drifting from the OP.He mentioned god, not gods. I am only using the commonly accepted definition of a god, which you know will be found any and everywhere. I don't understand the poking.

[ShadowSot]

_Only, on 19 November 2012 - 01:42 AM, said:

I didn't appreciate the history lesson, but we all know that the OP is talking about a sole all powerful being behind the scenes, and most definitely not mythologies, which were symbolic metaphor. He can correct me if I'm wrong.

Sorry, I do tend to blather. However you are not permitted to your own definitions of words. The OP did come across as being fairly Abrahamic in his presentation, that doesn't mean your statement that all gods are x is related to the ops statement however.

[C235]

ShadowSot, on 19 November 2012 - 01:09 AM, said:

  People like you terrify me. I believe in you and common decency much more than you do, apparently.
[/background][/size][/font][/color]I find it very odd that you consider this a mentality only found among theists. Are familiar with humanism at all?



Um... no. This is not true in Greek, Roman, Hindu, Egyptian or other mythologies. Gods vary between being superhuman immortals to simply superhuman to creators.


Yes and no.
Certainly knowing he'd exist would change me. However I feel I'm on a good course for myself, and I can't change that. Certainly it'd depend on the god of course.
If it's the fellow from the OT, I'd have some serious points of contention I'd like to get answers on.
And if he asked me to kill someone, he'd have to make a good case for it.
If, for example, not killing homosexuals, letting my kids speak back, not putting aside those who'd leave me astray, ect, sent me to hell, well. So be it.

You loose the sense of reality in words I'm sure there is so much difference between what you say & what is. Power corrupts. I never said i'm eviler than anyone here. its the circumstances  that we are on that counts. Are you saying there is nothing in this world that can temps you? that you have never done any immoral act? that you are immune to power's corruption? Before saying anything know that's a big claim & you are not king arthur.

I don't see how an atheist would go so far to preserve humanity. your instincts are for survival only. There is nothing beyond death for you. Nothing more valuable than matter. Are you simply moving forward based on emotions like love & mercy. If that's the case then your decency is more unstable than you think & your kind frightens me more than you know.

Edited by C235, 19 November 2012 - 05:35 AM.

[ShadowSot]

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You loose the sense of reality in words I'm sure there is so much difference between what you say & what is.

I'm certain my understanding of reality doesn't necessarily match up with reality. Just doing the best I can with the tools avalaible.

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I never said i'm eviler than anyone here.

You stated without a god you would become as evil as possible. That doesn't exactly reflect well on your ability to decide right and wrong.

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its the circumstances  that we are on that counts

Of course, and the circumstances you are born into and find yourself in greatly affect what and how you believe in god/gods.

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Are you saying there is nothing in this world that can temps you?

Of course there are things that tempt me.

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that you have never done any immoral act?

To do otherwise would be to lie, and I have not claimed otherwise here at all. I have made mistakes that are still with me to this day that I will probably never forgive myself for. Small stuff, but it guides my actions in the future.

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that you are immune to power's corruption?

No, but I have a good bunch of friends and my girlfriend who remind me I'm an idiot from the boonies when needed.

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Before saying anything know that's a big claim & you are not king arthur.

Yeah, I'm not claiming to be a character of myths and legend. I'm not Captain America or Spiderman either. You seem to be under some sort of misconception here. No one is claiming atheists are paragons of moral virtue.

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I don't see how an atheist would go so far to preserve humanity. your instincts are for survival only.

Uh... no. My instincts are to promote and be part of society. Nowadays, that means all of humanity nearabouts.

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There is nothing beyond death for you.

For my personal existence? Yeah.
However I leave behind the works I've done, the family I've raised, the jokes I've told and lives I've touched.
To want more seems to me to want more than your share.

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Nothing more valuable than matter.

Eh?

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Are you simply moving forward based on emotions like love & mercy. If that's the case then your decency is more unstable than you think & your kind frightens me more than you know.

Yes, I move forward on love and mercy and hope for a better tomorrow.
My decency is ever expanding. And if I should somehow forget my sensibilities, there' a reason we have law and order should my friends not be there either.

Frankly, religious belief doesn't offer any protection from your concerns.

[_Only]

C235, on 19 November 2012 - 05:23 AM, said:

I don't see how an atheist would go so far to preserve humanity. your instincts are for survival only. There is nothing beyond death for you. Nothing more valuable than matter. Are you simply moving forward based on emotions like love & mercy. If that's the case then your decency is more unstable than you think & your kind frightens me more than you know.

Now you're just being dramatic.

[Rlyeh]

C235, on 19 November 2012 - 05:23 AM, said:

I don't see how an atheist would go so far to preserve humanity. your instincts are for survival only. There is nothing beyond death for you. Nothing more valuable than matter. Are you simply moving forward based on emotions like love & mercy. If that's the case then your decency is more unstable than you think & your kind frightens me more than you know.

If beyond death is an uncertainty, it would be logical to make the best of this life.

[C235]

ShadowSot, on 19 November 2012 - 06:11 AM, said:

[/background][/size][/font][/color]I'm certain my understanding of reality doesn't necessarily match up with reality. Just doing the best I can with the tools avalaible.
[/background][/size][/font][/color]

You stated without a god you would become as evil as possible. That doesn't exactly reflect well on your ability to decide right and wrong.


Of course, and the circumstances you are born into and find yourself in greatly affect what and how you believe in god/gods.


Of course there are things that tempt me.

[/background][/size][/font][/color]To do otherwise would be to lie, and I have not claimed otherwise here at all. I have made mistakes that are still with me to this day that I will probably never forgive myself for. Small stuff, but it guides my actions in the future.



No, but I have a good bunch of friends and my girlfriend who remind me I'm an idiot from the boonies when needed.



Yeah, I'm not claiming to be a character of myths and legend. I'm not Captain America or Spiderman either. You seem to be under some sort of misconception here. No one is claiming atheists are paragons of moral virtue.


Uh... no. My instincts are to promote and be part of society. Nowadays, that means all of humanity nearabouts.


For my personal existence? Yeah.
However I leave behind the works I've done, the family I've raised, the jokes I've told and lives I've touched.
To want more seems to me to want more than your share.
[/background][/size][/font][/color]
Eh?



Yes, I move forward on love and mercy and hope for a better tomorrow.
My decency is ever expanding. And if I should somehow forget my sensibilities, there' a reason we have law and order should my friends not be there either.

Frankly, religious belief doesn't offer any protection from your concerns.

My states stands. Law & friends are a necessity for you. God is my friend. I don't trust your law & friends to always be there for everyone & you fear my God to be non-existence. I'm not religious either. Religion is long corrupted, or why would a person like you would choose to be an atheist. you do well to avoid it.

[Eldorado]

notoverrated, on 17 November 2012 - 05:14 AM, said:

be honest, if you knew for a fact that there was a god would you change anything? and how would it impact you. personaly i cant see to many changes in how i life my life if i knew for a fact that there was a god.

I'm guessing that maybe, on your deathbed, if you believe for a moment that Heaven does indeed exist, you'll be begging for forgiveness and swearing life-long allegiance to any religion that fits the bill.

Edited by Eldorado, 19 November 2012 - 06:49 AM.

[Amalthe]

Rlyeh, on 19 November 2012 - 06:21 AM, said:

If beyond death is an uncertainty, it would be logical to make the best of this life.

That's correct logical thinking. Just look at the animal world, how they behave, without knowledge of God, they pursue their own goals of spreading their genes. But C235 has also good point about that, because without existence of God, it would make sense to be evil, in a way to be free to break the rules set upon him. And again, without God, there is no Good or Evil in it's true sense, because everyone does what he thinks is best for his life, even if it means enslaving others to work for him.


And just a little historical insight. There are a lot of ancient religions who claimed to receive "knowledge" from the gods. So every nation had their own divinities, but were taught that there exist "God Creator" but he is just busy elsewhere. And back in those days, the principle was simple: humans worship gods, and receive knowledge or power in return. It is interesting to see in modern world, that a lot of people worship Money out of same principle: it gives them knowledge and power in return.

Edited by Amalthe, 19 November 2012 - 09:44 AM.

[Rlyeh]

Amalthe, on 19 November 2012 - 09:40 AM, said:

That's correct logical thinking. Just look at the animal world, how they behave, without knowledge of God, they pursue their own goals of spreading their genes. But C235 has also good point about that, because without existence of God, it would make sense to be evil, in a way to be free to break the rules set upon him. And again, without God, there is no Good or Evil in it's true sense, because everyone does what he thinks is best for his life, even if it means enslaving others to work for him.

You're obviously not thinking this out.
"It would make sense to be evil?" Can you imagine what such a world would be like? You're ignoring the biggest factor, consequences. The more power you seek, the bigger the target you become.
It's not hard and God doesn't even enter the equation.

When you've had God imposed on you, it can be quite difficult to separate morality from religion.

Edited by Rlyeh, 19 November 2012 - 11:20 AM.