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Was the Socorro incident an elaborate hoax ?


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#91    Kludge808

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Posted 20 August 2012 - 07:01 AM

View PostTim Hebert, on 18 August 2012 - 05:54 PM, said:

As far as hanging our coats on university degrees, I happen to have 2 undergraduate degrees and a masters degree...all irrelevant to the topic at hand.

*sheepishly raising hand* ... Does a split major undergrad degree count? ^_^

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#92    psyche101

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Posted 20 August 2012 - 07:23 AM

View Postzoser, on 18 August 2012 - 11:04 AM, said:

If I were to be honest with you psyche, I don't have a lot of time for people who set themselves up as professional UFO debunkers,  that hang their coats on their university PHD's.  I find attempts at debunking by such people difficult to follow, highly intellectualised to the point of non-comprehension, largely baseless, and full of more fantasy than any ET hypothesis could ever hope to have.

The explanations stem in the main from a fear of the unknown, coupled with a perceived threat to what they consider to be established scientific paradigms.  

When you have UFO cases backed in some instances by hundreds of witnesses and then one self appointed scientific hero trying to ridicule those people by drawing their attention to questionable not fully understood scientific principles then that is what I call disrespectful.  

Think; there is even debate raging today about what causes gravity!  What chance a debunking scientist trying to explain away the UFO phenomena.  It's laughable.

I think you should spend some more time with people like this Zoser. If you have a good look at the explanations you will see that they lay it out pretty well, you can learn exactly where they are coming from. If you disagree with them it is far easier going through a controlled method to see exactly what is the point that you find in error and present your own idea on what it should look like. In this fashion you can avoid the endless circle of he said she said by simply breaking down the claim into smaller pieces and examining those pieces more closely.

I disagree on the explanations, I think they are generally a product of ones culture, and I think historical record concerning fairies daemons and other harbingers and abductors show a common theme in the human psyche. Are yesterdays demons and fairies todays aliens? I feel this is highly likely, and I do not think all can possibly be explained as aliens. Such as the Fatima event, in which several witnesses identified religious figures. Fairies and daemons were identified as such, not greys and the like. WHere have the fairies and daemons gone?

When you have one person who is telling you many others are wrong, the best place to see if what he is telling is truth is to pull apart his claim and have a close look at it. You expect any witness no matter how ludicrous to be taken at face value until proven otherwise don't you? Why can skeptics not be afforded the same courtesy? Is this not how skeptics dissect a case? Why is whining the only alternative as a form of defence? Is it because of the value of the information to begin with, and if not, what is the problem then?

If debates such as things about gravity continue, it is not because of opinion, it is because of what can be verified, and yes, the UFO phenomena suffers the same. Yes such debates should ensue, why do you think they should not? Do you think we should believe the most impressive case or a set of facts that can be proven?

Peer review is the key here. If something has merit, it will be recognised as such. And people do not get upset about learning something new, but they do get upset when someone tries to pull the wool over their eyes. That is what "skeptics" as you put it strive to avoid. And that is what skeptics fear, an assault on logic that results in someone losing something. That is all they fear, not stupid UFO and ET stories as the many believers try to make out, after all, the believers are the only ones with something to lose there. Yes, they are arguing about gravity, do you know why? Because they do not understand it. Same as UAP's Zoser, we should try to understand them, not invoke a new set of Greek Gods. If ET is in them, then ET is no God, and we should recognise that too. And if that is indeed the case, that answer will be forthcoming and no government on earth will stop it. Knowledge will prevail.

Things are what they are. - Me Reality can't be debunked. That's the beauty of it. - Capeo If I have seen further it is by standing on the shoulders of giants. - Sir Isaac Newton Let me repeat the lesson learned from the Sturrock scientific review panel: Pack up your old data and forget it. Ufology needs new data, new cases, new rigorous and scientific methodologies if it hopes ever to get out of its pit. - Ed Stewart Youtube is the last refuge of the ignorant and is more often used for disinformation than genuine research.  There is a REASON for PEER REVIEW... - Chrlzs Nothing is inexplicable, just unexplained. - Dr Who

#93    Kludge808

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Posted 20 August 2012 - 07:24 AM

View PostTheMacGuffin, on 18 August 2012 - 08:33 PM, said:

I suspect that if one group did, then they all would, and we would suddenly find ourselves in the middle of a UFO convention.

Ah, yes.  The infamous intergalactic kegger.  :alien: :sk  :tu:

At least there wouldn't be any goats.  Or I don't think there would be ... :unsure2:

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#94    Kludge808

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Posted 20 August 2012 - 07:50 AM

View Postpsyche101, on 20 August 2012 - 07:23 AM, said:

Peer review is the key here. If something has merit, it will be recognised as such. And people do not get upset about learning something new, but they do get upset when someone tries to pull the wool over their eyes. That is what "skeptics" as you put it strive to avoid. And that is what skeptics fear, an assault on logic that results in someone losing something. That is all they fear, not stupid UFO and ET stories as the many believers try to make out, after all, the believers are the only ones with something to lose there. Yes, they are arguing about gravity, do you know why? Because they do not understand it. Same as UAP's Zoser, we should try to understand them, not invoke a new set of Greek Gods. If ET is in them, then ET is no God, and we should recognise that too. And if that is indeed the case, that answer will be forthcoming and no government on earth will stop it. Knowledge will prevail.

Bloody hell, you're good! :nw: :nw: :nw:

This is an excellent summation of the situation.  I think something in your sig bears noting, that being, "Reality can't be debunked. That's the beauty of it. - Capeo."  It has real meaning here.

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#95    DONTEATUS

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Posted 20 August 2012 - 10:49 PM

THis thread is too Funny ! I bet we can get a few more hundred pages outta her ! But then again the keys to the universe are a tricky set indeed. One needs to know first what one is looking for,And once knowledge gained know what to do with said knowledge.
THats the Tricky part ! :clap:
Great Post Y`all !

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#96    topsecretresearch

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Posted 21 August 2012 - 07:04 AM

I believe it was an ET craft. These types of craft are described as egg shape or elliptical and there are a lot of UFO landing cases..

A similar case from around that time would be Valensole, France.
Witness: Maurice Masse

You can read about it here:
http://science.howst...lensole-ufo.htm


#97    psyche101

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Posted 21 August 2012 - 07:45 AM

View PostKludge808, on 20 August 2012 - 07:50 AM, said:

Bloody hell, you're good! :nw: :nw: :nw:

This is an excellent summation of the situation.  I think something in your sig bears noting, that being, "Reality can't be debunked. That's the beauty of it. - Capeo."  It has real meaning here.


Cheers Kludge

Thanks for the kind words mate. Capeo was a member here some time ago, and one sharp cookie, I do miss his insights.
I think Zoser has guys like me all wrong, I would be as excited as Zoser to see aliens visit, I just do not like others dragging me into their fantasies, mine are twisted enough as it is. I just like people to be straight up with me as it is how I am with others.

ETA, you are not so bad yourself mate ;) I have not had time to respond to your post a couple pages back on Zamoras balloon, I only had time to "like" it before I had to move on. But thought provoking and I have to concur with your assessment. You seem to have quite a few questions for Mr Bragalia to answer.

Edited by psyche101, 21 August 2012 - 07:48 AM.

Things are what they are. - Me Reality can't be debunked. That's the beauty of it. - Capeo If I have seen further it is by standing on the shoulders of giants. - Sir Isaac Newton Let me repeat the lesson learned from the Sturrock scientific review panel: Pack up your old data and forget it. Ufology needs new data, new cases, new rigorous and scientific methodologies if it hopes ever to get out of its pit. - Ed Stewart Youtube is the last refuge of the ignorant and is more often used for disinformation than genuine research.  There is a REASON for PEER REVIEW... - Chrlzs Nothing is inexplicable, just unexplained. - Dr Who

#98    zoser

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Posted 21 August 2012 - 11:59 AM

View Postpsyche101, on 21 August 2012 - 07:45 AM, said:


I think Zoser has guys like me all wrong, I would be as excited as Zoser to see aliens visit, I just do not like others dragging me into their fantasies, mine are twisted enough as it is. I just like people to be straight up with me as it is how I am with others.


For the record, I appreciate you being here.  You have taught me a lot.  I don't know you but I have a perception about your scientific and mathematical background and understand totally where you are coming from.

I think we all need to appreciate what an extremely difficult subject this really is.  When I look at the people who have dedicated themselves to it over the decades and then add together all that brain power it is considerable.  There is a lot of painstaking education, research, and adding up gone into this subject, and the progress to date has been minimal.  Let's not be too hard on ourselves that's what I say.

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#99    TheMacGuffin

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Posted 21 August 2012 - 07:12 PM

View Posttopsecretresearch, on 21 August 2012 - 07:04 AM, said:

I believe it was an ET craft. These types of craft are described as egg shape or elliptical and there are a lot of UFO landing cases..



I definitely don't believe it was a hoax, nor did anyone who met Zamora and looked at the actual evidence.  Zamora was a rock-solid UFO witness and even Major Hector Quintanilla of Project Blue Book believed he was telling the truth.  

The physical evidence in this unusual UFO case revealed that it was a very heavy object of about 60 tons made out of an unknown zinc-iron alloy that the scientists thought would be a good material to make a spacecraft.  This rules out the Zamora UFO being a balloon, plasma or student prank.

As to what it was, where it really came from or why it was here, I have no idea and it's unlikely that anyone else does either.   It simply could not be identified as anything known to us.

I suppose the only alternative to an ET explanation was that it was some sort of super-secret military project, but strangely no such thing has been identified either in the 50 years since this incident occurred.  Chances are, if such a secret project had existed, some information about it would have been made public after all this time, but it never has.

So the Zamora UFO remains an unidentified object that was made of unknown materials and was very heavy.

Edited by TheMacGuffin, 21 August 2012 - 07:15 PM.


#100    Mantis914

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Posted 22 August 2012 - 02:24 PM

We've all ready beat the hoax or not a hoax thing to death now.  Regardless of whether it was real or not, no one has hit on the fact that Zamora saw markings on the hull of the craft which makes this one of the uncommon cases that "writing" or markings have been seen on the craft itself.  There have been a few others but as to if they were markings indeed what could it be?  A model #, advertisement, bumper sticker?  What do you think??

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#101    Hazzard

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Posted 22 August 2012 - 02:32 PM

I think that as time goes by all these stories get "better" and "better".

I still await the compelling Exhibit A.

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#102    DONTEATUS

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Posted 22 August 2012 - 02:51 PM

View PostHazzard, on 22 August 2012 - 02:32 PM, said:

I think that as time goes by all these stories get "better" and "better".
Like good wine with time all things sound better, its the taste that you have to really try. Thats the difference in the UFOlogy world we never get to touch,taste,see the real deal !
But ones things for sure ! I remember all too well the "Socorro" quite the mess that Volkswagen tryied on us !

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#103    Kludge808

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Posted 27 August 2012 - 08:10 AM

View Postpsyche101, on 21 August 2012 - 07:45 AM, said:

Cheers Kludge

Cheers, old friend.

Quote

Thanks for the kind words mate.

Dunno about kind.  I'm just being honest as I always am.  Well, except for some of the whoppers I had to tell to get the goat here.  C-17 loadmasters are sooo picky!

Quote

Capeo was a member here some time ago, and one sharp cookie, I do miss his insights.

Sounds like one of the Good Guys and like someone I would have liked to have known.

Quote

I think Zoser has guys like me all wrong, I would be as excited as Zoser to see aliens visit, I just do not like others dragging me into their fantasies, mine are twisted enough as it is.

Twisted fantasies ... like a dream where you see yourself standing in sort of sun-god robes on a pyramid with a thousand naked women screaming and throwing little pickles at you?

Anyway, I'd love to have an alien land, come up and introduce himself ... kind of like, "Hi, I'm Fred from Flurfnagog and ... oooh, is that coffee I smell?"  See?  Instant common interest, a good cup of coffee.

Quote

I just like people to be straight up with me as it is how I am with others.

Weeelll ... we both know one person from another thread is automatically disqualified.  However I agree with you.  Be straight with me and we're good.  Play games and discover the consequences.  It's like where I used to work.  I told folks that if they mess something up tell me about it up front.  We'll deal with it, no problem.  Try to hide it or if I have to find out from someone else, we're going to have a discussion and you won't like it.

Quote

ETA, you are not so bad yourself mate ;)

Awww ... :blush: :blush: :blush:

Quote

I have not had time to respond to your post a couple pages back on Zamoras balloon, I only had time to "like" it before I had to move on. But thought provoking and I have to concur with your assessment. You seem to have quite a few questions for Mr Bragalia to answer.

Yep, one or two.  He totally ignored witness testimony, weather conditions and a host of other facts then tried to make Officer Zamora out to be a total bumbling idiot and a blind one at that.  I have no clue what he's on but whatever it is, it's decidedly illegal.

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#104    Amerix

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Posted 27 August 2012 - 10:38 PM

Quote

Zamora was a cop.  While some may take issue with this, police forces do not employ "blind confused idiots."

You've never been to New Orleans have you?  :whistle:


#105    Kludge808

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Posted 28 August 2012 - 06:07 AM

View PostCpl599, on 27 August 2012 - 10:38 PM, said:

You've never been to New Orleans have you?  :whistle:

ROFLMAO!  Okay, most police forces don't ... ;)

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