Pope Francis: Atheists can also go to heaven!

[Clarakore]

Pope Francis again impresses. For being the head of a body that slowly changes and has done much harm, even with resistance within, the man keeps coming up with increasingly better ways of looking at things. Will it change the culture? Yes! Because people are ready for change, craving it, just as Kennedy led the change that was ready to be born.

The growing pains of a new hope for the world are here. Call the midwives, get the water. A new baby is about to be born. A star that will shine bright across the world. No matter what path one is on all have a chance at validation. Even if one does not believe in heaven for those who do to accept we will have a chance to be there regardless of path is shining hope.

Pope Francis rocked some religious and atheist minds today when he declared that everyone was redeemed through Jesus, including atheists.

During his homily at Wednesday Mass in Rome, Francis emphasized the importance of "doing good" as a principle that unites all humanity, and a "culture of encounter" to support peace.

Using scripture from the Gospel of Mark, Francis explained how upset Jesus' disciples were that someone outside their group was doing good, according to a report from Vatican Radio.

“They complain,” the Pope said in his homily, because they say, “If he is not one of us, he cannot do good. If he is not of our party, he cannot do good.” And Jesus corrects them: “Do not hinder him, he says, let him do good.” The disciples, Pope Francis explains, “were a little intolerant,” closed off by the idea of ​​possessing the truth, convinced that “those who do not have the truth, cannot do good.” “This was wrong . . . Jesus broadens the horizon.” Pope Francis said, “The root of this possibility of doing good – that we all have – is in creation”

*snip*

Of course, not all Christians believe that those who don't believe will be redeemed, and the Pope's words may spark memories of the deep divisions from the Protestant reformation over the belief in redemption through grace versus redemption through works.

The pope's comment has also struck a chord on Reddit, where it is the second most-shared piece.

Pope Francis Says Atheists Who Do Good Are Redeemed, Not Just Catholics

[+and-then]

I am the way, the truth and the life - no man comes to the Father but by me. Christ said this and left no doubt about who He claimed to be. One either believes this or they do not. It is their choice and only their choice. I am not a Catholic basher but I disagree with their doctrines and would never be a part of their church for that reason. I respect them for the good they do in the world but THIS is apostasy imo. It is called ecumenism and since it seems so comfortable to men it is surely destructive. It is similar to the "christian" churches which worship with Muslims, saying they worship the same god.

[Irrelevant]

I'm a former Jesuit.,

They do indeed worship the same god. Mohamed can trace his origins back to Adam and Eve also.. Doesn't mean I agree with Islam however. (Well parts of it are very beautiful)

None are correct, or the full truth, when The Lord of Second advent is revealed the old world and its half finished doctrines will be forgotten..

These books were written in time when even lightning or static electricity was not understood..why people think there all finished works is beyond me. If you believe that then Gods done nothing in the last 2000 years, or perhaps he has and is right now, except if you were on the current time line you'd be despised and labeled a heretic by all established rocks...and why some think that God has only worked in such a limited group, race or religion or is only found in one book and one book out of millions of books, billions of people! this is also beyond me..whoever the new guy is who offers this new truth, leads all into the truth, comes on the clouds of heaven, as seen in Luke17 24-25 will suffer much and be rejected in his time..

The coming of the Son of Man

17:22 Then 66 he said to the disciples, “The days are coming when you will desire to see one of the days 67 of the Son of Man, and you will not see it. 17:23 Then people 68 will say to you, ‘Look, there he is!’ 69 or ‘Look, here he is!’ Do not go out or chase after them. 70 17:24 For just like the lightning flashes 71 and lights up the sky from one side to the other, so will the Son of Man be in his day. 72 17:25 But first he must 73 suffer many things and be rejected by this generation. 17:26 Just 74 as it was 75 in the days of Noah, 76 so too it will be in the days of the Son of Man. 17:27 People 77 were eating, 78 they were drinking, they were marrying, they were being given in marriage – right up to the day Noah entered the ark. Then 79 the flood came and destroyed them all. 80 17:28 Likewise, just as it was 81 in the days of Lot, people 82 were eating, drinking, buying, selling, planting, building; 17:29 but on the day Lot went out from Sodom, fire and sulfur rained down from heaven and destroyed them all. 83 17:30 It will be the same on the day the Son of Man is revealed. 17

Edited May 24, 2013 by Irrelevant

[Irrelevant]

Did something different here,

sick of being labeled a heretic for simply following the traditions of Jesus , in quoting the first line, thinking anybody who's awake will know the scripture by just mentioning the first line, now I shall quote full passages so there's no confusion.

Also will point out that in other versions its translated "from EAST to WEST" instead of " from one side to the other" or " from one part under heaven to the other part under heaven" these aspects will change according to your version..

[Clarakore]

Not every flower blooms at once

Right from the start

they said it would take years

for change to arrive

and we've already had many

in some minds things stay the same

(it pains them to change)

All through the war

we helped those they labeled enemy

at a personal cost some of us died

but we saved many lives

now that it's over we are remembered

(sanctified and glorified)

All flags painted white

we once again live with each other

neighbors stayed in my secret shelter

we now rebuild their homes together

for us there was no war in our hearts ever

(gardens always with lavender)

Welcome to our heart's secret shelter

yours has one too, is there room for others?

it's safe above the coast is clear

did your basement flood? help is near

there was no need to fight, we surrender

(remember salvation was first and forever)

[Irrelevant]

The heralding Angels are starting to sing!

[lightly]

I like this pope. .. for those who believe in GOD , but believe people worship Different Gods ..... How many Gods created the Heavens and the Earth ??¿¿?

[Clarakore]

Irrelevant, besides inspiring that piece your posts have also reminded me of this poem:

What is seen is not the Truth

What Is cannot be expressed

Trust comes not without seeing

Nor understanding without words

The wise comprehends with knowledge

To the ignorant it is but a wonder

Some worship the formless God

Some worship His various forms

In what way He is beyond these attributes

Only the Knower knows

That music cannot be written

How can then be the notes

Says Kabir, awareness alone will overcome illusion

—Kabir

Mystic Songs

Edited May 24, 2013 by Leave Britney alone!

[Irrelevant]

Much love returned to you Brits!

[+and-then]

I like this pope. .. for those who believe in GOD , but believe people worship Different Gods ..... How many Gods created the Heavens and the Earth ??¿¿?

I actually like the MAN myself. He is what a pure religious leader ought to be, selfless and humble and always seeking to love and do good. It is his doctrine I cannot agree with since it goes against the very basis of my faith. This does not mean I dislike or would try to call down the fire on him or any catholic or Christian who would think they worship the same god as a Muslim. I simply pray for them and realize they are deluded.

[Setton]

Never thought I'd hear that from a Pope. I've got more respect for him every day.

[Irrelevant]

Will there be rebellion in the ranks when he really says what he knows? He has encountered something..

Just curious what the atheists say now they've been told? Sadly what he didn't say to them that there is Atheists in the spirit world too and heaven has levels, How's that possible? There's many levels and places in heaven, Jesus taught this too just a different way " My Father has many mansions "

I read your other thread, moderate Muslims pray for holocust victims, we have sent our best there but not many have received..it's hard to let go of the anger, they can come straight up but because of the anger they choose to stay, its hard to reason with them (just like it is to many here, how much harder is it when they have been so badly wronged to overcome it!)...when they can forgive they will naturally ascend, prayer can help them, This is why forgiveness is so important, to be a Citizen in heaven your heart must be clear, like a child...children who play together don't care if another's of a different Faith or Race until there taught such things.. If you got anger in your heart let it go! It's natural to have it at times but don't hold it, only hold love, love your Neighbour..

Jesus "There's many things I to wish I could tell you right now, but when the spirit of truth comes he will lead you all into the light" I've mentioned half truths, this line identifies with that, there was indeed many things Jesus wanted to say but choose not too, knowing that wine would be spilled if pored into the old wine skins of his generation.

There's many false doctrines on the earth, most of these are really just half truths, I mentioned these have already been defeated, the victory has already happened, but what your seeing is something like at the end of WW2, soldiers still fighting after they have been defeated. The dragon was communism (a false doctrine) its many heads were the countries who took it on, the fall of communism is almost complete! The final battleground for it is North Korea , china will give it away soon, they will have to, already there's a middle class, there society is being changed from within.. The final wars are all ideological, not territorial. In reality as soon as Christians and Islam embrace each other it's basically over, the pope knows this..I told you Islam goes back to the holy family too, Mohamad is a descendant of Esau (twin brother of Jacob /Israel) these two wrestled in the womb even! The reason to tie the ribbons?? The Stealing of his blessing? It was the desire for the Abel one of the two to obtain the blessing of the first born. When these two met later Israel thought his brother wanted to kill him, but on seeing each other they had tears in there eyes! Christians and Muslims you must learn to embrace your brother! Embrace each other!

We already did our job, under massive persecution, now its your turn! Then we shall all rejoice as one family under the Father in heaven, peace shall reign, God shall dwell with his people, the old world will be forgotten.

[Rlyeh]

I wish I could say I'm happy about religion evolving, but I'm not. These archaic beliefs have served their purpose, the pope is only making intolerant superstition appear more tolerable.

No matter how much you dress up a turd, it is still a turd.

[Glenville86]

Funny how 4 of the major religious followings believe in the same God but in different ways. There is so much diversity in the same religions, that it is hard to understand. It has been our downfall for centuries.

[Philangeli]

Pope Francis again impresses. For being the head of a body that slowly changes and has done much harm, even with resistance within, the man keeps coming up with increasingly better ways of looking at things. Will it change the culture? Yes! Because people are ready for change, craving it, just as Kennedy led the change that was ready to be born.

The growing pains of a new hope for the world are here. Call the midwives, get the water. A new baby is about to be born. A star that will shine bright across the world. No matter what path one is on all have a chance at validation. Even if one does not believe in heaven for those who do to accept we will have a chance to be there regardless of path is shining hope.

Pope Francis Says Atheists Who Do Good Are Redeemed, Not Just Catholics

Did the Pope actually say in his homily that atheists can go to Heaven? No. So, the title of this thread is misleading from the start.

If you read his homily, you will see that he is reiterating traditional Catholic doctrine - that Christ died for all and that redemption is open to all mankind through him.

[StarMountainKid]

Good for this Pope embracing all humanity.

Religion is an evil force when it excludes and condemns anyone. It must be quite an ego trip for one to think he/she belongs to an exclusive club and those without membership cards are condemned to everlasting punishment

How can one with this attitude do good in this world?

[libstaK]

I am the way, the truth and the life - no man comes to the Father but by me. Christ said this and left no doubt about who He claimed to be. One either believes this or they do not. It is their choice and only their choice.

Let's just break it down shall we:

"I am the way"

The path that Jesus took, what he embodies is the way and the path for us all.

"I am the truth"

He was the real deal, the genuine article, no artifice to be found or falsehood in his words and teachings. Shown succinctly by his capacity to heal, which only access to the truth could allow. But more succinctly, he spoke the truth and embodied the truth at the same time.

"and the life"

The above when followed is the life, it is the life encompassed, we sinners walk the path of death.

"nobody comes to the father but by me"

So he has authority to bring folk to the father - HE has, nobody else, no words by any other being about who is worthy or not worthy has any meaning whatsoever, he has the authority - and I'm betting he will choose how he uses it and to whom it will apply. I'm thinking the disciples will not be the only ones with ruffled feathers over outsiders being praised as those who do good by Jesus.

But even more simply and directly - how else but by the way, the truth and the life could anyone come by the father? The way must be lived, the truth must be known, the life must be the embodiment of all that we are.

I have heard this particular bible quote so many times as vindication for following a particular dogma or religion within the banner of christianity and for each it is about the exclusion of those who "don't follow Jesus" - or more specifically who "are not saved".

I think the Pope is onto something profound and very simple at the same time - don't imagine you know what it is to be on the way or in the truth or even an embodiment of life divine unless you have repented in full and are living without sin as we speak and even then ... well who you would be would have to be quite a surprise me thinks, you'd hardly recognise yourself and your thoughts would certainly be of an utterly new flavour, yet untasted by most of mankind.

Fact is, an atheist is just as capable of recognizing good from evil and being as good as they know how to be - nobody can be better than they know how to be, there really is no "us" and "them" we are all in this together and equal before God - "the way" - of whom Jesus is may well be lit by something completely ignorant of religion or "belief" and more attune to what our heart and mind is singing to the world.

Bottom line, I would never discount what men consider impossible before the power of Christ - and that absolutely includes an atheist making it to heaven before a believer.

[Philangeli]

I wish I could say I'm happy about religion evolving, but I'm not. These archaic beliefs have served their purpose, the pope is only making intolerant superstition appear more tolerable.

No matter how much you dress up a turd, it is still a turd.

Thank you for that enlightening, tolerant view.

Just a reminder:

'Spirituality vs Skepticism' board guidelines Please always respect the beliefs of other members - the bashing of specific religions, countries, races or belief systems is strictly disallowed.

[+Liquid Gardens]

Did the Pope actually say in his homily that atheists can go to Heaven? No. So, the title of this thread is misleading from the start.

If you read his homily, you will see that he is reiterating traditional Catholic doctrine - that Christ died for all and that redemption is open to all mankind through him.

He says that atheists are 'redeemed'. To some Christians, that appears to be synonymous with being saved which yes means they're going to heaven, but I can't say how Catholic doctrine may use the word 'redemption'. Regardless, it's debatable whether it's the title of the post that's misleading or the Pope's statement.

[StarMountainKid]

Spirituality vs Skepticism' board guidelines Please always respect the beliefs of other members - the bashing of specific religions, countries, races or belief systems is strictly disallowed.

There is another rule that states: 5i. Rule quoting: Do not quote the site rules to other members, if you believe the rules have been broken please hit the 'report' button.

I, too, have broken this rule by posting this rule. Maybe I won't go to heaven after all.

[Clarakore]

Atheists, who likely don't believe in heaven or redemption in the same regard, are enjoying the pluralism. Secular humanists are our brothers and sisters.

(RNS) Atheists and other nonbelievers largely welcomed Wednesday’s (May 22) remarks by Pope Francis that performing “good works” is not the exclusive domain of people of faith, but rather a place where they and atheists could and should meet.

*snip*

Then, referring to non-Catholics and nonbelievers, he said, “if we do good to others, if we meet there, doing good, and we go slowly, gently, little by little, we will make that culture of encounter: we need that so much. We must meet one another doing good.”

Reaction among American nonbelievers ranged from mild surprise to warm welcome. Some say they see Francis’ remarks as a sign that nonbelief —atheism, humanism and other forms of freethought —is being normalized, while others see recognition of what they say they have known all along: Having no faith does not mean having no morality.

“We are a community that is just trying to do good and live good lives, just like most communities are,” said Greg Epstein, Harvard University’s Humanist chaplain and author of “Good Without God.” “His statement is an acknowledgment of that. It is welcome and it is gratifying.”

Epstein was struck by the contrast of Francis’ remarks and Tuesday’s broadcast of an interview by CNN’s Wolf Blitzer of an Oklahoma tornado victim. When Blitzer asked the woman if she wanted to thank God for her family’s survival, she replied she is an atheist.

“You have this small example of this soft-spoken young mother who is recovering from the tornado who by her presence, her quiet dignity, not only exemplified what the pope was saying, but overshadowed him,” Epstein said. “The quiet dignity of her just being a person and so clearly a good and loving person, it makes my reaction, and I would think a lot of people’s reaction (to Francis’ remarks), ‘Well, of course.’”

Dale McGowan also affirmed the pope’s recognition of nonbelievers. His Foundation Beyond Belief collects funds from nonbelievers and distributes them to charities and relief organizations and organizes teams of secular volunteers. To date, Foundation Beyond Belief has raised more than $35,000 for victims of the Oklahoma tornado.

“Anything that decreases the mistrust and fear between people is a good thing,” he said. “Some people might say it contradicts past statements (of other popes), but I don’t care about any of that. It is terrific when a position evolves to where we can put division behind us, and this is an example of that and I think it is great.”

D.J. Grothe, president of the James Randi Education Foundation, an organization of skeptics, said he hears echoes of the landmark Second Vatican Council (1962-1965) in Francis’ remarks. And while he takes issue with some policies of the Catholic Church —the promotion of miracles, the opposition to contraception —the pope’s address was nonetheless “refreshing.”

Francis’ predecessor, Benedict XVI, was a vocal opponent of secularism and unbelief, even as he approved a new initiative called “Courtyard of the Gentiles” to engage in dialogue with nonbelievers and linked arms with outspoken Italian journalist Oriana Fallaci, an atheist who saw trouble in the growth of European Islam.

“I don’t see that disdain for nonbelief that was so apparent before” in other popes, Grothe said. “He is really talking about what I would call humanism —the ethical approach to making the world a better place without recourse to supernatural beliefs.”

*snip*

“He was using his own language and speaking from his own beliefs,” McGowan said, a statement echoed by others. “That is not the point. The point is he is saying, ‘I don’t fear you,’ and I think that is a lovely thing.”

Atheists Like What They See In Pope Francis' New Openness: via HuffPost http://huff.to/10onX5m

[Rlyeh]

Thank you for that enlightening, tolerant view.

Then you obviously didn't read it. No where did I present it as a tolerant view, tolerance of the intolerant is self-defeating.

Just a reminder:

'Spirituality vs Skepticism' board guidelines Please always respect the beliefs of other members - the bashing of specific religions, countries, races or belief systems is strictly disallowed.

Mind pointing out which specific religion I'm bashing?

[+Sherapy]

Pope Francis again impresses. For being the head of a body that slowly changes and has done much harm, even with resistance within, the man keeps coming up with increasingly better ways of looking at things. Will it change the culture? Yes! Because people are ready for change, craving it, just as Kennedy led the change that was ready to be born.

The growing pains of a new hope for the world are here. Call the midwives, get the water. A new baby is about to be born. A star that will shine bright across the world. No matter what path one is on all have a chance at validation. Even if one does not believe in heaven for those who do to accept we will have a chance to be there regardless of path is shining hope.

Pope Francis Says Atheists Who Do Good Are Redeemed, Not Just Catholics

What an a interesting post, recently I spent a lot of time with a friend who is a Deacon at a Catholic church and he shared that his parish is actively spreading a message of love and unity regardless of the path one follows. I actually saw my friend treat the people around him with respect and equality (including myself) (and he is fully aware and respects that I am an Atheist/Agnostic.) he was not concerned with ones faith or lack of faith or sexuality. My friend told me that his Parish is no longer teaching or encouraging literal interpretations of the bible as it can lead to harming others. It is very possible that the Catholic church is going through a major transition and making some much needed changes. I will definitely support this kind of change, and I look forward to see how this pans out. I think the aspects of Christianity that need to will step into walking their talk ( after all the message of the Jesus figure is a good one.) I have a few other Christian friends who are really making it clear they are the type of Christians that will be leading with love. So as an atheist I am pleased with what I am experiencing from My Christian brothers and sisters!

Edited May 24, 2013 by Sherapy

[+Sherapy]

Let's just break it down shall we:

"I am the way"

The path that Jesus took, what he embodies is the way and the path for us all.

"I am the truth"

He was the real deal, the genuine article, no artifice to be found or falsehood in his words and teachings. Shown succinctly by his capacity to heal, which only access to the truth could allow. But more succinctly, he spoke the truth and embodied the truth at the same time.

"and the life"

The above when followed is the life, it is the life encompassed, we sinners walk the path of death.

"nobody comes to the father but by me"

So he has authority to bring folk to the father - HE has, nobody else, no words by any other being about who is worthy or not worthy has any meaning whatsoever, he has the authority - and I'm betting he will choose how he uses it and to whom it will apply. I'm thinking the disciples will not be the only ones with ruffled feathers over outsiders being praised as those who do good by Jesus.

But even more simply and directly - how else but by the way, the truth and the life could anyone come by the father? The way must be lived, the truth must be known, the life must be the embodiment of all that we are.

I have heard this particular bible quote so many times as vindication for following a particular dogma or religion within the banner of christianity and for each it is about the exclusion of those who "don't follow Jesus" - or more specifically who "are not saved".

I think the Pope is onto something profound and very simple at the same time - don't imagine you know what it is to be on the way or in the truth or even an embodiment of life divine unless you have repented in full and are living without sin as we speak and even then ... well who you would be would have to be quite a surprise me thinks, you'd hardly recognise yourself and your thoughts would certainly be of an utterly new flavour, yet untasted by most of mankind.

Fact is, an atheist is just as capable of recognizing good from evil and being as good as they know how to be - nobody can be better than they know how to be, there really is no "us" and "them" we are all in this together and equal before God - "the way" - of whom Jesus is may well be lit by something completely ignorant of religion or "belief" and more attune to what our heart and mind is singing to the world.

Bottom line, I would never discount what men consider impossible before the power of Christ - and that absolutely includes an atheist making it to heaven before a believer.

I am an Atheist and I cannot tell you how many of my christian friends have said these words to me, that we are all one. I have been told by more then one of my Christian friends and that is (the majority of my friends) I am as christian as they are and I am not even on the path, that in the end its about the love. Love is the universal connection IMO and when we are actively listening and doing our part-- our example(loving) does the talking, the labels we humans attach really mean very little.

Edited May 24, 2013 by Sherapy

[Irrelevant]

By thy fruits you shall know them. Are you a relative of the great OliverC?...we met in the orient once a decade ago.