toast Posted February 6, 2014 #1 Share Posted February 6, 2014 (edited) Yes, here is another one on the VM. Folio 68v of the manuscript shows 3 drawings and the focus here is on the left one, I will name it D3. Compared with actual pics of spiral galaxies, D3 contains all the structural characteristics of a spiral galaxy like a center, spiral arms, stars and an outer threshold. In addition, D3 shows a big blue dot in between a row of stars. For a better viewing I have extracted D3 from the pic and marked a red line from the center to the threshold, this line walk across the blue dot. Picture 2 shows a graphic of our galaxy with the position of our sun. Also in pic 2 a line is marked from the center to the threshold, passing the earth. And now the math. The measuring unit for both red lines is %, so both red lines have a length of 100%. In the graphic, earth has a distance from the center of the galaxy of approx. 41% of the radius and the blue dot in D3 has a distance of approx. 35%. So, in D3 an object is marked that matches the distance proportion from earth to the galaxy center by an accuracy level of <10%. Huh? VM D3: Graphic of our galaxy: Facts: four pages, including 68v, of the VM were C14 dated to 1404-1438. The refracting telescope was developed around 1600. Without any optical equipment, there are 5 (?) galaxies that can be seen with the naked eye but only under best conditions: M31,M33,M81,LMC and SMC but it is impossible to see single stars let alone non-star objects in these objects. So the questions are: Fortuitousness? Faked VM? Wrong C14 dating? Development of the refracting telescope some hundred years earlier as known yet? PS: I know, 6 main arms in our galaxy, 8 “arms” in the drawing Sources: http://phys.org/news...xperts-age.html http://www.bibliotec...nuscrito122.jpg Edited February 6, 2014 by toast Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
scorpiosonic Posted February 6, 2014 #2 Share Posted February 6, 2014 (edited) IMO, He is drawing what he saw-the entire Milky Way galaxy, and individual stars, not individual galaxies within the MW. The drawing isn't very well done, and I'm not sure about the difference in the amount of arms. Edited February 7, 2014 by scorpiosonic Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sundog Posted February 7, 2014 #3 Share Posted February 7, 2014 hi toast this picture does indeed represent a map of the cosmos, in keeping with the common perceptions of the time. if we take a closer look at the centre of the picture we can see that it is divided into three, a common simplification of a world map known as a 'T&O' map (see wikipedia). so we can see that the artist has placed the world at the centre of the cosmos. the blue dot on closer inspection looks to be just a blue ink blot smudged over one of the stars with more blue smudges at the bottom of the picture. as for the spiral arms i don't have any examples from other contemporary works that would explain what these might represent. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jaylemurph Posted February 7, 2014 #4 Share Posted February 7, 2014 I'm not sure galaxies are a very useful term for trying to explain this image. The m. comes from before telescopes were invented and none of the galaxies visible to the naked eye look like anything in the ms., just blobs. If you are suggesting it's a galaxy, then you have to explain how the manufacturer was able to see what no one else on Earth was for several centuries. Or why no stars appear in what you want to be the "arms" which are composed in real life of nothing but stars. Saying this "is an image of a galaxy" probably just makes more obscure whatever (if anything at all) the author wanted to express. --Jaylemurph Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
toast Posted February 7, 2014 Author #5 Share Posted February 7, 2014 I'm not sure galaxies are a very useful term for trying to explain this image. The m. comes from before telescopes were invented and none of the galaxies visible to the naked eye look like anything in the ms., just blobs. If you are suggesting it's a galaxy, then you have to explain how the manufacturer was able to see what no one else on Earth was for several centuries. Hi Jaylemurph, that are 2 of the key questions here for which I do not have answers yet. So it cannot be explained how the manufacturer, if so, got informations about the design of a classic spiral galaxy, in the early 15th century. Or why no stars appear in what you want to be the "arms" which are composed in real life of nothing but stars. Distance? Or maybe as "stars in the arms" were not of interest for the general meaning of the drawing. Like e.g. citys or roads are not of interest in some topographic maps. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Taun Posted February 7, 2014 #6 Share Posted February 7, 2014 -snip- as for the spiral arms i don't have any examples from other contemporary works that would explain what these might represent. Aren't there supposed to have been 4 rivers that flowed into/out of Eden - according to Genesis? perhaps that is what it's representing... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rlyeh Posted February 7, 2014 #7 Share Posted February 7, 2014 IMO, He is drawing what he saw-the entire Milky Way galaxy, and individual stars, not individual galaxies within the MW. How did he see the entire Milky Way galaxy? And what does "individual galaxies within the MW" mean? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
toast Posted February 7, 2014 Author #8 Share Posted February 7, 2014 IMO, He is drawing what he saw-the entire Milky Way galaxy, and individual stars, not individual galaxies within the MW. The drawing isn't very well done, and I'm not sure about the difference in the amount of arms. The spiral galaxy pattern of our galaxy cannot be visual imaged from earth. And, MW is a galaxy so no other galaxies within. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
scorpiosonic Posted February 7, 2014 #9 Share Posted February 7, 2014 (edited) How did he see the entire Milky Way galaxy? And what does "individual galaxies within the MW" mean? My meaning was he drew the entire portion of the Milky Way galaxy he could see. Also, there are individual galaxies within the Milky Way, but he didn't draw them. According to my celestial map, there are many, many galaxies of several types within the Milky Way. The spiral galaxy pattern of our galaxy cannot be visual imaged from earth. And, MW is a galaxy so no other galaxies within. True the spiral pattern can't be seen from earth. IF he could've seen them he would've drawn 6 arms. Quoting Toast, "Distance? Or maybe as "stars in the arms" were not of interest for the general meaning of the drawing. Like e.g. citys or roads are not of interest in some topographic maps." IF he was drawing a spiral galaxy, the stars in the arms of that Galaxy ARE important, and of interest....BUT, He didn't draw a spiral galaxy pattern, he drew part of the Milky Way, with unexplained arms that don't have any stars in them, but do have some writing in them. (Can anyone read these words??? This would be helpful!) According to my celestial map, there are many, many galaxies of several types within the Milky Way. (Maybe we should be calling it the MW family of Galaxies.) Edited February 7, 2014 by scorpiosonic Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rlyeh Posted February 7, 2014 #10 Share Posted February 7, 2014 Also, there are individual galaxies within the Milky Way, but he didn't draw them. According to my celestial map, there are many, many galaxies of several types within the Milky Way.Has these galaxies been confirmed by observation? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
toast Posted February 7, 2014 Author #11 Share Posted February 7, 2014 (edited) Can anyone read these words??? This would be helpful! According to my celestial map, there are many, many galaxies of several types within the Milky Way. That´s correct but we are talking here about the 15th century when spiral galaxy design was unknown. Edited February 7, 2014 by toast Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
scorpiosonic Posted February 7, 2014 #12 Share Posted February 7, 2014 Hi Toast, I stand by what I stated, "Can anyone read these words??? This would be helpful" ....to interpret the meaning of this drawing. We are talking about a 15th century drawing that depicts part of the Milky Way as seen from earth, NOT a drawing of an individual spiral galaxy within the MW. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
scorpiosonic Posted February 7, 2014 #13 Share Posted February 7, 2014 Has these galaxies been confirmed by observation? Yes, my celestial map was made in 1980, they used hi-powered telescopes. Then w/ careful observations and measurement they compiled this ACCURATE map. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
toast Posted February 7, 2014 Author #14 Share Posted February 7, 2014 (edited) Hi Toast, I stand by what I stated, "Can anyone read these words??? This would be helpful" ....to interpret the meaning of this drawing. Mate, nobody on this planet can read these words. Edited February 7, 2014 by toast Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
toast Posted February 7, 2014 Author #15 Share Posted February 7, 2014 (edited) hi toast this picture does indeed represent a map of the cosmos, in keeping with the common perceptions of the time. if we take a closer look at the centre of the picture we can see that it is divided into three, a common simplification of a world map known as a 'T&O' map (see wikipedia). so we can see that the artist has placed the world at the centre of the cosmos. the blue dot on closer inspection looks to be just a blue ink blot smudged over one of the stars with more blue smudges at the bottom of the picture. as for the spiral arms i don't have any examples from other contemporary works that would explain what these might represent. Hi blackdogsun, good additional info, thanks for that. Re: the blue dot, you are right but if I judge this from a perspective of a maximum-hardcore-CT persons point of view it was done dot-like to not get into focus of the inquisitions executives. Edited February 7, 2014 by toast Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
scorpiosonic Posted February 7, 2014 #16 Share Posted February 7, 2014 (edited) This is the table from Edith Sherwood's site. (click link below for her site.) My point was, IF you could read it, it would help to understand it better. If one man/woman writes it, another can decode it. (I'm not saying she is correct here.) IMO, The drawing appears to be an Astrological chart of some sort. The letters I used from the VM and their English equivalent are shown in the table below: http://www.edithsher...coded/index.php Here's another on same subject http://cms.herbalgra...3ab8b7bddea028c Edited February 7, 2014 by scorpiosonic Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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