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Christians and oppression


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#91    Zaphod222

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Posted 18 April 2013 - 08:06 AM

View PostAbramelin, on 17 April 2013 - 09:11 PM, said:

I have a question for those who think that a Christian should be faithful to the OT.

If "God" asked you to slit the throat of your son as an act of loyalty to him, would you do it?

That is your OT "God".

Think "Abraham".

Methinks that you forget that the OT precedes Christianity by 3000 years or more.
By definition, nothing written in the OT can directly address Christians, since there were no Christians at the time...

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#92    Zaphod222

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Posted 18 April 2013 - 08:24 AM

View PostSeeker79, on 18 April 2013 - 08:05 AM, said:

Are Christians not directed to spread their religon?

Not by Jihad! And their religion does not come with barbaric medieval laws.

As a non-Christian I find it weird having to defend them, but these hamfisted attacks on Christianity are really tiring. You Christianity bashers are so barking up the wrong tree.

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#93    Abramelin

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Posted 18 April 2013 - 09:05 AM

View PostZaphod222, on 18 April 2013 - 08:06 AM, said:

Methinks that you forget that the OT precedes Christianity by 3000 years or more.
By definition, nothing written in the OT can directly address Christians, since there were no Christians at the time...

Well, precedes Christianity by some 1500 years would be more correct.

Anyway, my point is that there are Christians who live according to the NT. That seems logical because otherwise they would not call themselves Christians. But as you know, many Christians follow the Bible, which includes the OT.

Now that is different. Atrocities committed in the name of Christianity were always committed by those who followed the OT.
Jesus didn't say "an eye for an eye, a tooth for a tooth", but "love your neighbour", "whoever is without sin, let him throw the first stone", "turn the other cheek", and so on.

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Edited by Abramelin, 18 April 2013 - 09:17 AM.


#94    Doug1o29

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Posted 18 April 2013 - 03:49 PM

View PostAbramelin, on 18 April 2013 - 09:05 AM, said:

Jesus didn't say "an eye for an eye, a tooth for a tooth", but "love your neighbour", "whoever is without sin, let him throw the first stone", "turn the other cheek", and so on.
Matthew 5:38:  "You have heard it said, an eye for an eye and a tooth for a tooth, but I tell you to turn the other cheek."

The eye-for-an-eye part comes from the OT where it is listed in at least three verses.  The original idea is in the Code of Hammurabi (1780 BC).  The idea is that you will extract ONLY an eye for an eye and a tooth for a tooth.  It is a call for justice, not vengeance.  Those who use it as an excuse for violence are following neither the Old or the New Testaments (nor even the laws of Babylon), but rather, their own whims.

In Judea, it was customary when insulted or otherwise offended by someone, to strike them.  An inferior was struck with the back of the hand, while a superior was struck with the palm.  By turning the other cheek, you forced a person who struck you with the back of the hand to admit that you were his superior.  It is a non-violent approach, but it is also a very active approach.  Peace and justice are active, not passive.


One of the reasons Christians were persecuted in Roman times was their abominable behavior.  They burned pagan churches, desecrated sacred groves and disrupted services. They fought with and murdered each other over matters of doctrine.  Civil discourse was a rarity.  An emperor trying to keep the peace had no choice but to suppress them.  Ironically, the emperors who just didn't care about the empire and took no actions against Christians, are remembered by Christians as "good" emperors.  Constantine finally threw in the towel and called the Council of Nicea to settle issues of doctrine and restore peace.  Issues the bishops could not agree on (like when and where Jesus was born), he settled by decree - that's why we celebrate Christmas on December 25 (Mythra's birthday) and why Mythra's birthplace has a Christian church over the spot (The Church of the Nativity) - pagan revenge.  To add to the irony, the Church of the Nativity is administered by two MUSLIM families who were given that task by Suladin.

Constantine did not become a Christian until 337.  At the time of his "vision" and the time of the Council of Nicea, he was a pagan and worshipped at the Temple of the Invincible Sun (Many early Christians also worshipped there, conducting services on the buildings step's.  Not all Christian/pagan interactions were hostile.).


Above, I asked how many Christians were executed by the Romans:  about 2000.  I also asked how many Christians were killed by other Christians.  About 50,000 in the Albigensian Crusade alone.  How many were killed in the 30 Years War, where "Christians" battled "Christians"?  Or in the Reformation?  Or, or, or ....


Judging Christianity by the way it is practiced, I conclude that it is a death cult, and a very violent one, based on a myth; although, there are a few grains of truth in the myth.

How about Islam?  Much the same story, except that the Koran arose from the mind of one man and is thus, a little more consistent, if no more accurate, than the OT and NT.

And now that I have offended both sides of this squabble, I will sign off and await the deluge I have unleashed.
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#95    IamsSon

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Posted 18 April 2013 - 04:07 PM

View PostAbramelin, on 18 April 2013 - 07:56 AM, said:

So it's a YES, right? You would slit the throat of your son.
You know, I would like to say that I would obey any command from God, but frankly, I'm not sure I could.  Abraham showed an incredible amount of faith when he obeyed God.  He knew God had promised that Isaac would be the father of a nation, and he trusted God to keep His word, so he knew that either Isaac would not die, or that God would bring him back to life.  It took a great deal of faith, and I'm ashamed to say I'm not sure I have that much faith.

"But then with me that horrid doubt always arises whether the convictions of man's mind which has been developed from the mind of the lower animals, are of any value or at all trustworthy. Would any one trust in the convictions of a monkey's mind, if there are any convictions in such a mind?" - Charles Darwin, in a letter to William Graham on July 3, 1881

#96    White Crane Feather

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Posted 18 April 2013 - 04:29 PM

View PostZaphod222, on 18 April 2013 - 08:24 AM, said:



Not by Jihad! And their religion does not come with barbaric medieval laws.

As a non-Christian I find it weird having to defend them, but these hamfisted attacks on Christianity are really tiring. You Christianity bashers are so barking up the wrong tree.
Truth is not bashing.

"I wish neither to possess, Nor to be possessed. I no longer covet paradise, more important, I no longer fear hell. The medicine for my suffering I had within me from the very beginning, but I did not take it. My ailment came from within myself, But I did not observe it until this moment. Now I see that I will never find the light.  Unless, like the candle, I am my own fuel, Consuming myself. "
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#97    White Crane Feather

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Posted 18 April 2013 - 04:44 PM

View PostIamsSon, on 18 April 2013 - 04:07 PM, said:

You know, I would like to say that I would obey any command from God, but frankly, I'm not sure I could.  Abraham showed an incredible amount of faith when he obeyed God.  He knew God had promised that Isaac would be the father of a nation, and he trusted God to keep His word, so he knew that either Isaac would not die, or that God would bring him back to life.  It took a great deal of faith, and I'm ashamed to say I'm not sure I have that much faith.
You should not be ashamed of your sense of right and wrong. This indeed is the scary part about the faithful.

"I wish neither to possess, Nor to be possessed. I no longer covet paradise, more important, I no longer fear hell. The medicine for my suffering I had within me from the very beginning, but I did not take it. My ailment came from within myself, But I did not observe it until this moment. Now I see that I will never find the light.  Unless, like the candle, I am my own fuel, Consuming myself. "
Bruce Lee-

#98    Tutankhaten-pasheri

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Posted 18 April 2013 - 04:47 PM

I still find it very curious that posters who say they are not Christian, or that they are lapsed Christians, agnostics or even atheists, are not slow in rushing to attack any who dare say one unfavourable word against Christianity. I call these people liars, I say they are all Christians, and due to their loudness and blockheaded stance, are probably fundamentalists.

Of course an alternate view is that they are really not Christian and are simply trying to give Christianity a bad name. If so, please, carry on, and thank you for the good work :)

Edited by Atentutankh-pasheri, 18 April 2013 - 04:48 PM.


#99    IamsSon

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Posted 18 April 2013 - 04:55 PM

View PostSeeker79, on 18 April 2013 - 04:44 PM, said:

You should not be ashamed of your sense of right and wrong. This indeed is the scary part about the faithful.
I don't think you and I are using the same definition of faith.

You see, the definition I am using means "trust."  I do not have a "Cross your fingers and really, really, really tell yourself you believe that God exists," kind of faith.  I know God exists, I interact with Him on a daily basis, and I have seen Him do some amazing things in my life and the life of others, I no more have to hope He's real than I have to hope my wife is real.  I trust Him completely when He says that Jesus's death on the cross is full and proper payment for my sins.  And yet, and yet, if I'm honest I have to admit that I'm not sure I would obey Him if He told me to kill my son.  Even if He told me my son would be the father of a great nation, I'm truly not sure I would do it.  I admire Abraham's level of trust, I aspire to it, because I am not sure I have it.

"But then with me that horrid doubt always arises whether the convictions of man's mind which has been developed from the mind of the lower animals, are of any value or at all trustworthy. Would any one trust in the convictions of a monkey's mind, if there are any convictions in such a mind?" - Charles Darwin, in a letter to William Graham on July 3, 1881

#100    IamsSon

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Posted 18 April 2013 - 04:56 PM

View PostAtentutankh-pasheri, on 18 April 2013 - 04:47 PM, said:

I still find it very curious that posters who say they are not Christian, or that they are lapsed Christians, agnostics or even atheists, are not slow in rushing to attack any who dare say one unfavourable word against Christianity. I call these people liars, I say they are all Christians, and due to their loudness and blockheaded stance, are probably fundamentalists.

Of course an alternate view is that they are really not Christian and are simply trying to give Christianity a bad name. If so, please, carry on, and thank you for the good work :)
No, thank you!

Thank you for making it so clear that you're simply another irrational prejudiced hater.

"But then with me that horrid doubt always arises whether the convictions of man's mind which has been developed from the mind of the lower animals, are of any value or at all trustworthy. Would any one trust in the convictions of a monkey's mind, if there are any convictions in such a mind?" - Charles Darwin, in a letter to William Graham on July 3, 1881

#101    White Crane Feather

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Posted 18 April 2013 - 05:04 PM

View PostIamsSon, on 18 April 2013 - 04:55 PM, said:

I don't think you and I are using the same definition of faith.

You see, the definition I am using means "trust."  I do not have a "Cross your fingers and really, really, really tell yourself you believe that God exists," kind of faith.  I know God exists, I interact with Him on a daily basis, and I have seen Him do some amazing things in my life and the life of others, I no more have to hope He's real than I have to hope my wife is real.  I trust Him completely when He says that Jesus's death on the cross is full and proper payment for my sins.  And yet, and yet, if I'm honest I have to admit that I'm not sure I would obey Him if He told me to kill my son.  Even if He told me my son would be the father of a great nation, I'm truly not sure I would do it.  I admire Abraham's level of trust, I aspire to it, because I am not sure I have it.
I'm not saying that's a bad thing. I'm glad you have that bit of restraint. Its just scary that others don't. I believe in a great spirit also, but it's not faith based. You have to understand where I'm comeing from. I dont buy it that many Christians have faith in god at all, I believe they have faith in the bible. To me your inner voice telling you that killing your child is wrong despite what a voice from the sky tells you is closer to  god speaking to you than your faith and obidiance.

"I wish neither to possess, Nor to be possessed. I no longer covet paradise, more important, I no longer fear hell. The medicine for my suffering I had within me from the very beginning, but I did not take it. My ailment came from within myself, But I did not observe it until this moment. Now I see that I will never find the light.  Unless, like the candle, I am my own fuel, Consuming myself. "
Bruce Lee-

#102    Tutankhaten-pasheri

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Posted 18 April 2013 - 05:07 PM

View PostIamsSon, on 18 April 2013 - 04:56 PM, said:

No, thank you!

Thank you for making it so clear that you're simply another irrational prejudiced hater.
Really, you have no sense of humour, which is typical of fundamentalists. And my post was simply an observation. The hate is all from you and your bretheren. Any rational person will see this. You and others constantly hoist yourselves on your own petards, yet you seem incapable of seeing how you look to others, or of any self critical faculties. I have faults, I make errors and bad decisions, say to much when I should shut up. But from you and others, nothing but a wall of selfrighteous pomposity and hate.

Let me just make something clear. I have been attacked again and again, and not just here, had posts deliberately mis-quoted, had quotes fabricated, been subjected to insulting PMs. Yet I have not started any of this. Fine, you can find me saying "garbage" to a poster, but then look at the history of posting and look at why I have said garbage, But I know you will not, because you are the "righteous of god" or whatever. What charlatans and liars you are, what pathetic bullies. Christians you call yourselves, many would call you something else, but not wishing to be banned I hold my tounge in the face of intolerable assault from you people. The lot of you are not worth a spit, or my time anymore.

Edited by Atentutankh-pasheri, 18 April 2013 - 05:17 PM.


#103    Michelle

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Posted 18 April 2013 - 05:23 PM

View PostAtentutankh-pasheri, on 18 April 2013 - 04:47 PM, said:

I still find it very curious that posters who say they are not Christian, or that they are lapsed Christians, agnostics or even atheists, are not slow in rushing to attack any who dare say one unfavourable word against Christianity. I call these people liars, I say they are all Christians, and due to their loudness and blockheaded stance, are probably fundamentalists.

No, we just aren't hypocrites. My husband and the majority of my friends are Christians. I would never talk about them like a dog behind their backs. I don't study their religion, or watch them like a hawk, so I can catch them going against such and such a scripture. I don't spend my life looking for something to be offended about by Christians. I'm open enough to be able to see fundamentalists on both sides and I don't paint everyone with the same broad brush as people are so fond of doing here.

I hold Atheists to higher standard because the pompous, obnoxious ones, who are always looking for a fight, reflect badly on me. I don't want to be associated with them in any way. They are the reason people are wary of non-believers. Some people can't see the forest for the trees.


#104    Abramelin

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Posted 18 April 2013 - 05:47 PM

View PostDoug1o29, on 18 April 2013 - 03:49 PM, said:

Matthew 5:38:  "You have heard it said, an eye for an eye and a tooth for a tooth, but I tell you to turn the other cheek."

The eye-for-an-eye part comes from the OT where it is listed in at least three verses.  The original idea is in the Code of Hammurabi (1780 BC).  The idea is that you will extract ONLY an eye for an eye and a tooth for a tooth.  It is a call for justice, not vengeance.  Those who use it as an excuse for violence are following neither the Old or the New Testaments (nor even the laws of Babylon), but rather, their own whims.

In Judea, it was customary when insulted or otherwise offended by someone, to strike them.  An inferior was struck with the back of the hand, while a superior was struck with the palm.  By turning the other cheek, you forced a person who struck you with the back of the hand to admit that you were his superior.  It is a non-violent approach, but it is also a very active approach.  Peace and justice are active, not passive.


One of the reasons Christians were persecuted in Roman times was their abominable behavior.  They burned pagan churches, desecrated sacred groves and disrupted services. They fought with and murdered each other over matters of doctrine.  Civil discourse was a rarity.  An emperor trying to keep the peace had no choice but to suppress them.  Ironically, the emperors who just didn't care about the empire and took no actions against Christians, are remembered by Christians as "good" emperors.  Constantine finally threw in the towel and called the Council of Nicea to settle issues of doctrine and restore peace.  Issues the bishops could not agree on (like when and where Jesus was born), he settled by decree - that's why we celebrate Christmas on December 25 (Mythra's birthday) and why Mythra's birthplace has a Christian church over the spot (The Church of the Nativity) - pagan revenge.  To add to the irony, the Church of the Nativity is administered by two MUSLIM families who were given that task by Suladin.

Constantine did not become a Christian until 337.  At the time of his "vision" and the time of the Council of Nicea, he was a pagan and worshipped at the Temple of the Invincible Sun (Many early Christians also worshipped there, conducting services on the buildings step's.  Not all Christian/pagan interactions were hostile.).


Above, I asked how many Christians were executed by the Romans:  about 2000.  I also asked how many Christians were killed by other Christians.  About 50,000 in the Albigensian Crusade alone.  How many were killed in the 30 Years War, where "Christians" battled "Christians"?  Or in the Reformation?  Or, or, or ....


Judging Christianity by the way it is practiced, I conclude that it is a death cult, and a very violent one, based on a myth; although, there are a few grains of truth in the myth.

How about Islam?  Much the same story, except that the Koran arose from the mind of one man and is thus, a little more consistent, if no more accurate, than the OT and NT.

And now that I have offended both sides of this squabble, I will sign off and await the deluge I have unleashed.
Doug

"Matthew 5:38:  "You have heard it said, an eye for an eye and a tooth for a tooth, but I tell you to turn the other cheek."

And THAT'S what I am talking about.

Jesus was about forgiveness, not about vengeance.

Those who act upon vengeance are not true Christians.

There.

.

Edited by Abramelin, 18 April 2013 - 05:55 PM.


#105    Tutankhaten-pasheri

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Posted 18 April 2013 - 05:57 PM

View PostMichelle, on 18 April 2013 - 05:23 PM, said:

I'm open enough to be able to see fundamentalists on both sides and I don't paint everyone with the same broad brush as people are so fond of doing here.
I respond to how I have been treated here, and that is badly, and it has been by people I see as clearly being fundamentalist Christians. I have made it clear in places that I am not anti - Christian. Yet it has been made very clear to me that some on this forum are offended that anybody could not be a Christian, and are very much against any Pagans. I am subjected to various forms of attack, in the open and by PM, how pathetic and shamefull, and one person I have had to block. I do not shed any tears for any hurt feelings of those who attack me. Ordinary decent people who are Christians do not attack me, and I do not attack them. It is only the fundamentalists and their rather strange apologists who attack me.

The OP is about how Christians are oppressed, yes, quite.....

Edited by Atentutankh-pasheri, 18 April 2013 - 06:01 PM.





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