10148 replies to this topic

[Colonel Rhuairidh]

the L, on 04 March 2013 - 10:21 PM, said:

No. It depends on how huge was it when it falls. When Cortes met Aztecs some of common soldiers have had daggers knives. So he asked them from where you got it? They pointed out in stars, Also many historians agree that meteoric iron was commonly used among Eskimos.

Because if wasnt meteoric iron then Zoser was right. Copper couldnt do it.
How can you explain fine work in granite with copper? You cant. Unless they have had something else.

Also many things were done with stone tools. And for fine work they probably used meteoric iron.

Surely to supply enough iron to make it a common enough material to supply arms for the common foot soldier, and also to provide enough to knock up a few monuments while they were at it, they'd have had to have been perpetually bombarded with the stuff. The whole point of displaying ornamental daggers & so on made of Iron would have been because it was so rare, and therefore it was a symbol of status, exactly like Gold in Western Civilisation.

[seeder]

the L, on 04 March 2013 - 10:21 PM, said:

Also many things were done with stone tools. And for fine work they probably used meteoric iron.

Or not as the case maybe.

This talk about saw cuts in rocks = aliens is getting ridiculous again. Why would aliens need saws of any description? And just how many rocks with saw marks are there? And where is the evidence for perfectly straight sawed finished items?

Now, in regard to the metals they had:

Pre Incan Iron mine was found:

http://www.world-arc...e-found-intact/


And in a previous post Ive made, wiki stated the copper used wasnt 'just' copper, but an alloy;

Wiki:

"Notable features at Pumapunku are I-shaped architectural cramps, which are composed of a unique copper-arsenic-nickel bronze alloy. These I-shaped cramps were also used on a section of canal found at the base of the Akapana pyramid at Tiwanaku. These cramps were used to hold the blocks comprising the walls and bottom of stone-lined canals that drain sunken courts. I-cramps of unknown composition were used to hold together the massive slabs that formed Pumapunku's four large platforms. In the south canal of the Pumapunku, the I-shaped cramps were cast in place. In sharp contrast, the cramps used at the Akapana canal were fashioned by the cold hammering of copper-arsenic-nickel bronze ingots.[9][12] The unique copper-arsenic-nickel bronze alloy is also found in metal artifacts within the region between Tiwanaku and San Pedro de Atacama during the late Middle Horizon around 600–900.


http://en.wikipedia....ku#Architecture


So this copper-arsenic-nickel bronze alloy, is not entirely dis-similar to what is known as Cupronickel, depending on the recipe used

But for anyone to know  for sure - a whole load of tools need to be found and analysed, as obviously any such tools and weapons evolve over time with continued study and usage. But one thing is clear, these were not a people unfamiliar with working metals:

"Even though the Inca Empire contained a lot of precious metals, the Incans did not value their metal as much as fine cloth[citation needed]. The Incans adopted much of their metal-working characteristics from the metalwork of Chimu. Because of their expertise in metalworking, after the fall of Chimu many metalworkers were taken back to the capital city of Cuzco to continue their metalworking for the emperor. Copper, tin, gold, and silver were all obtained from mines or washed from the river gravels. These metals would then be handed over to metallurgists. Because the Inca had a system that emphasized political and religious organization, there were many specialized artisans like metallurgists. There were also specialized weavers, cloth makers, pottery makers, and many more.

Both copper and bronze would be used for basic farming tools or weapons. Some of the common bronze and copper pieces found in the Incan empire included sharp sticks for digging, club-heads, knives with curved blades, axes, chisels, needles and pins. All of these items would be forged by a metallurgist and then spread throughout the empire.

The Incans reserved their more precious metals for ornaments and decorations. Gold and silver were common themes throughout the palaces of Incan emperors. It was said that the walls and thrones were covered with gold and that the emperor dined on gold and silver service. These golden plated services would often be inlaid with llamas, butterflies or other creatures. Even beyond the gold and decoration of the emperor’s palace were the ornaments that decorated all of the temples throughout the empire. The temples of the Incans were strewn with sacred and highly precious objects. Headdresses, crowns, ceremonial knives, cups and a lot of ceremonial clothing were all inlaid with gold or silver.

http://en.wikipedia....s_and_metalwork




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Edited by seeder, 05 March 2013 - 12:41 PM.

[seeder]

edit: whoops, I had meant to include this with above mention of cupronickel


cupronickel,  any of an important group of alloys of copper and nickel; the alloy containing 25 percent nickel is used by many countries for coins. Because copper and nickel mix readily in the molten state, the useful range of alloys is not confined within any definite limits. Additions of from 2 percent to 45 percent of nickel to copper provide a series of alloys that are stronger and more resistant to oxidation at high temperatures than is pure copper. An alloy containing 30 percent nickel, the most important, is widely used for condenser tubes in steam-power plants.


http://www.britannic...752/cupronickel




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Edited by seeder, 05 March 2013 - 01:09 PM.

[seeder]

the L, on 04 March 2013 - 09:52 PM, said:

Its hard to answer on all posts just one small correction to Onionmancer and co.
Copper cant cut a wood. Copper usage was for show. Hierarchy. Not for cuting stones.

Its hard core history facts. Truth defends me.

"One of our successes: Denys Stocks measures the cut made over 10 days by a copper saw, just what the ancient Egyptians likely used"


and a good read: (with pics)


"However, the ancient Egyptians had copper saw blades, which they employed in carpentry, and are frequently represented in Egyptian art (Fig. 1a). Examples of carpentry saws from very early in the ancient Egyptian civilization (1st-3rd Dynasty) have been found (Emery 1972, Arnold 1991). These early copper saws are of a variety of lengths up to 40 cm (image). Usually, only one edge of the blade is serrated and meant to be pulled and not pushed during cutting (i.e. rip-saw), and the blade is socketed into a straight wooden handle (Fig. 1b). An example of a fragment of an ancient Egyptian copper saw can be found at the Petrie Museum


http://www.oocities....bbing_saws.html


"The use of saws as a method of cutting rock is inferred from marks observed on ancient Egyptian stonework, including pieces of waste rock and finished and unfinished stone objects. Many of these marks have been found, usually observed as grooves cut into surfaces of rock or as striations on cut surfaces (Petrie 1974, Lucas and Harris 1962, Arnold 1991, Stocks 1999; 2001).

For examples:

a: Saw marks on greywacke "schist" leaf-shaped bowl (1st Dynasty, Emery 1972 (pl. 39a)).

b: Chevron-shaped sawing marks on Sekhemkhet's travertine (alabaster) sarcophagus (3rd Dynasty, Goneim 1956).

c: Saw marks on the lid of the granite sarcophagus of Meresankh (3rd Dynasty, Lucas and Harris 1962).

d: Saw marks on the granite portcullises of the Great Pyramid (4th Dynasty, Petrie 1974).

e: Saw marks on the granite sarcophagi of Khufu and Khafre (4th Dynasty, Petrie 1883).

Drawing #1 shows a saw cut on end of Khufu's granite sarcophagus (Fig. 2) in the Great Pyramid.
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Edited by seeder, 05 March 2013 - 01:44 PM.

[zoser]

the L, on 04 March 2013 - 09:53 PM, said:

Why would they if they have had iron?

Copper cuts stones-Its just one of set up theories. Working hypothesis. From where people who trust in it start to search archaeological evidence for such.
Copper was not tool. It was accesories. Decoration. For show. Like gold. It was among first metals that we use because of softness.

Try cut granite with Au...

At last.  Someone here with a basic appreciation of material properties

[zoser]

seeder, on 05 March 2013 - 01:29 PM, said:

"One of our successes: Denys Stocks measures the cut made over 10 days by a copper saw, just what the ancient Egyptians likely used"


and a good read: (with pics)


"However, the ancient Egyptians had copper saw blades, which they employed in carpentry, and are frequently represented in Egyptian art (Fig. 1a). Examples of carpentry saws from very early in the ancient Egyptian civilization (1st-3rd Dynasty) have been found (Emery 1972, Arnold 1991). These early copper saws are of a variety of lengths up to 40 cm (image). Usually, only one edge of the blade is serrated and meant to be pulled and not pushed during cutting (i.e. rip-saw), and the blade is socketed into a straight wooden handle (Fig. 1b). An example of a fragment of an ancient Egyptian copper saw can be found at the Petrie Museum


http://www.oocities....bbing_saws.html


"The use of saws as a method of cutting rock is inferred from marks observed on ancient Egyptian stonework, including pieces of waste rock and finished and unfinished stone objects. Many of these marks have been found, usually observed as grooves cut into surfaces of rock or as striations on cut surfaces (Petrie 1974, Lucas and Harris 1962, Arnold 1991, Stocks 1999; 2001).

For examples:

a: Saw marks on greywacke "schist" leaf-shaped bowl (1st Dynasty, Emery 1972 (pl. 39a)).

b: Chevron-shaped sawing marks on Sekhemkhet's travertine (alabaster) sarcophagus (3rd Dynasty, Goneim 1956).

c: Saw marks on the lid of the granite sarcophagus of Meresankh (3rd Dynasty, Lucas and Harris 1962).

d: Saw marks on the granite portcullises of the Great Pyramid (4th Dynasty, Petrie 1974).

e: Saw marks on the granite sarcophagi of Khufu and Khafre (4th Dynasty, Petrie 1883).

Drawing #1 shows a saw cut on end of Khufu's granite sarcophagus (Fig. 2) in the Great Pyramid.
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The length of the saws is totally irrelevant.  The issue in question is the thickness to produce such a fine cut.

The material would need to be super hard to do it.  Sand, copper, bronze is all fantasy.

Try it and see.

If we are discussing saw length, then 40cm is just a complete joke anyway.

The one that cut the Peru stone must have been at least 2 metres to allow for to and fro action.

Are we supposed to believe that the had 3mm thick blades 2 metres long?  Pull the other one.

Stocks achieved nothing like this.  Quoting him is just smokescreen misinformation.

Edited by zoser, 05 March 2013 - 05:53 PM.

[zoser]

seeder, on 05 March 2013 - 01:06 PM, said:

edit: whoops, I had meant to include this with above mention of cupronickel


cupronickel,  any of an important group of alloys of copper and nickel; the alloy containing 25 percent nickel is used by many countries for coins. Because copper and nickel mix readily in the molten state, the useful range of alloys is not confined within any definite limits. Additions of from 2 percent to 45 percent of nickel to copper provide a series of alloys that are stronger and more resistant to oxidation at high temperatures than is pure copper. An alloy containing 30 percent nickel, the most important, is widely used for condenser tubes in steam-power plants.


http://www.britannic...752/cupronickel




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And the tools that sprang from these iron works are where?

Answer?  No where.

They should be if they were made that recently and their use was that prolific.  How many Roman swords, spears, and tools do we have?

Roman tools from one search on Google:



There are dozens and dozens of images.

Here is what Google returned for Pre-Inca tools:

[seeder]

zoser, on 05 March 2013 - 05:53 PM, said:

The length of the saws is totally irrelevant.  

If we are discussing saw length, then 40cm is just a complete joke anyway.

   How effortlessly you manage to contradict yourself in the above 2 sentences. You're rather good at that aren't you?

Its 'irrelevant' he says,  but it MUST be - as he then says 'its a joke'

Id suggest you actually read the link,  BUT....if you only re-read my post you will see the phrase mentioned was 'carpentry saws' in relation to the possible sizes

The post relates to Egypt. Not PP. More proof you dont read anything

[seeder]

zoser, on 05 March 2013 - 05:59 PM, said:

And the tools that sprang from these iron works are where?

Answer?  No where.

They should be if they were made that recently and their use was that prolific.  How many Roman swords, spears, and tools do we have?

Roman tools from one search on Google:



There are dozens and dozens of images.

Here is what Google returned for Pre-Inca tools:

you may realize one day, that to be effective with Google you need to get your search phrases correct.

In zosers world....if one Google search doesn't work then its proof it doesn't exist

My quick search?  This is just one image that comes up instantly







.

more halfway down page

http://peruenroute.w...aso-de-la-vega/

Edited by seeder, 05 March 2013 - 06:08 PM.

[seeder]

zoser, on 05 March 2013 - 05:59 PM, said:

And the tools that sprang from these iron works are where?

Answer?  No where.

Ever left something made of iron in the garden for just a few days?  Its gets rust. A few months? Very rusty.

Then depending on the thickness of the IRON...its crumbling dust quite quickly.  Besides, why do you expect them to leave tools lying around? Do modern workmen do that?

[seeder]

Just googled for 'Inca' and artifacts and  British Museum...





zoser must walk round that place with eyes tightly closed...  

Edited by seeder, 05 March 2013 - 06:20 PM.

[zoser]

seeder, on 05 March 2013 - 06:03 PM, said:

you may realize one day, that to be effective with Google you need to get your search phrases correct.

In zosers world....if one Google search doesn't work then its proof it doesn't exist

My quick search?  This is just one image that comes up instantly


more halfway down page

http://peruenroute.w...aso-de-la-vega/

You did say pre-inca?

Did you not?

Your post said that the mine was pre-inca?

Make up your mind please

Quote seeder:

Now, in regard to the metals they had:

Pre Incan Iron mine was found:

http://www.world-arc...e-found-intact/



Now back to the Inca relics in your pictures?  The saws are where?

Edited by zoser, 05 March 2013 - 06:23 PM.

[TheSearcher]

seeder, on 05 March 2013 - 06:03 PM, said:

you may realize one day, that to be effective with Google you need to get your search phrases correct.

In zosers world....if one Google search doesn't work then its proof it doesn't exist

My quick search?  This is just one image that comes up instantly







.

more halfway down page

http://peruenroute.w...aso-de-la-vega/

doing the same search as Zoser, only the words "Pre-Inca Tools", two or three lines under the pic he used, I found another picture. From this link. I can't post it because it is copy righted but one can view it. However it comes with the following description : "Pre-Inca civilization, Bolivia, 1st-13th century A.D. Tiwanaku culture. Iron axe and large pins."

So there are IRON tools around and they are PRE-INCA.

Edited by TheSearcher, 05 March 2013 - 06:22 PM.

[seeder]

shame on the Museum worker... so many things  to see at the B-Museum about the Inca, take your pick below

https://www.google.c...iw=1280&bih=606


what do you do again zoser?


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Edited by seeder, 05 March 2013 - 06:32 PM.

[zoser]

seeder, on 05 March 2013 - 06:13 PM, said:

Ever left something made of iron in the garden for just a few days?  Its gets rust. A few months? Very rusty.

There should be evidence, in the way of artefact, folklore to verify that they cut granite with saws if the work was that recent.

There is nought.