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EU irked by Turkish adultery law


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#31    Erikl

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Posted 20 September 2004 - 09:37 AM

QUOTE
Yes, I kind of guessed there would be such feeling, however you donít hear about refugee camps being knocked over by tanks. Youíre completely missing my points.


No, I don't hear about refugee camps blowing up in Ceuta or Melilla, but I do hear about 4,000 refugees dead because of Spanish policy, and about 6,000 Spanish soldiers stationed in those cities (for example - Spain sent only 1,300 soldiers to Iraq, and this caused a regime changed in Spain).

For example, look at this quote from the wiki-article about the "Ceuta barrier":
"Construction of the £200 million razor-wire barrier was financed by the European Union.

Morocco has objected to the construction of the barrier, as it considers Ceuta to be occupied Moroccan land. Critics have also implicated the barrier in the drowning deaths of at least 4,000 people who have died trying to cross the straits of Gibraltar to enter Spain."
.


QUOTE
Double standards? If Spain was killing civilians then you here you would hear me complain if you post the article. Youíre making up your paranoid fantasy that Europe is out to get you as you go along. Spain and Isreal are nowhere near comparable.


As I said - 4,000 refugees are dead becuase of the fence built with EU tax money.

Anyhow - I was talking about the actually building of seperation fences, which the EU seem to attack Israel over it. The Israeli fence doesn't kill Palestinians. So the issue here is not the death of palestinian terrorists, but the building of walls. The EU goes and attack Israel on a security fence which is built to save Israeli lives against armed Palestinian terrorists.
From where I stand, the EU protest against the security fence is like saying "we rather see Palestinians getting on time to work, than see Israelis not exploding in busses and streets".
It is either EU politicians are extremely stupid, and don't understand the purpose of the security fence, or that they care more for Palestinians having a job than Israelis living.

And in top of all this - the EU built a seperation wall on an occupied Moroccan land, not to defend itself from terrorists, but to keep immigrants from working in it's territory. Can't you see the hypocricy?!

As to youre alligations of me being paranoid - you can sing it all day, but you have no proof of it (and please read the followings before responding only to this sentence...).
Jews have been persecuted in Europe for the last 2,000.
Only 60 years ago, Europe (except for the UK and Denmark) genocided it's Jewish population, so we left Europe to our original homeland.
Now, Europe is hurting Israel politically, by pulling out sanctions, funding weapons of mass Jihad against Israelis, etc.

HOW WOULD YOU FEEL IF YOU WERE AN ISRAELI?

My mother's family originally came from Poland. Then the Poles banished them (along with the rest of it's Jewish population) to Russian territory. Then the Russians did pogroms in it's Jews, causing many of them to flee Russia. Then my mother's family had to go to Moldovia. Then, because of pogroms in the beginning of the 20th century, they had to go to Bucharest (Romania). Then the Nazis came and together with the local Romanian population, 400,000 Romanian Jews were liquified in Aushwitz. My grandfather, which was an athlete, was sent to a labout camp in Transtertaria (Ukraine), were he suffered from inflammation in his legs to the rest of his life. My grandmother's family was rounded up and sent to Aushwitz. Then, after the Nazis went, they were mistreated by the Communist regime in Romania, and even though my grandfather was a leading party member, he was banished out of Romania, his property stolen by the government, and his citizenship taken.

And now the EU stabs Israel in the back by politically harming us and funding Palestinian terrorism. (EUFUNDING.ORG) mad.gif.

You can call it paranoia as long as you want - but you'll have to refute my claims.
Untill you do that, remember that anytime a suicide bomber explode in a buss killing many children, he was funded by youre tax money.  disgust.gif

QUOTE
If anything all your saying is Israel has no culture of its own and is just a blend of everyone elseís

No, what I am saying is that Jews from Europe came here with European culture ,together with their Jewish culture.
For example, would you consider a british Jew to have only British culture, or also a Jewish culture?
I would consider him having both, just as you have both Scottish culture and British culture.
Now imagine that there is a russian Jew exactly like that british Jew, which has both Russian culture and Jewish culture.
Now imagine that they both immigrate to Israel. And they get marry. Their child will be culturally influenced by Russian and British culture. Most likley he will speak both english and russia (and ofcourse Hebrew) as it's native tounge.
He will read english literature and russian literature while he is growing.
So the result is that he will have a mixed culture, uniting both the Russian and the British culture, alongside his 3,300 years' old Jewish culture.

QUOTE
you forget Europe has thousands of years worth of culture before your culture even existed

LOL  laugh.gif  laugh.gif  laugh.gif
Best joke I've heared today!

Last time I checked, Jews were reading, writting, building temples, writting poetry and fighting with something else but rocks and stones already 3,300 years ago. wink2.gif

Human civilization started in the middle-east, not in Europe.  tongue.gif

(ps - no, I'm not petronising here, but just responded the same way you did).

QUOTE
How many ways can I say this, as far as Iím concerned South-East Europe ends with Greece, and does not include Israel and Turkey, which as far as Iím concerned are part of Africa and Asia respectively.

First of all, both Israel and Turkey are in Asia (Israel most certainly isn't part of Africa).
And the EU doesn't end in Greece - it includes Cyprus, which is in Asia (although it is an Island, it is more to the east than Turkey, and is considered Asia).
The reason Cyprus can be considered part of Europe though, is that civilizationally (western civilization), culturally and linguistically it is closer to Europe.
Unless you think Israel is closer to Arab civilization than European and western one, I don't see how Cyprus is closer to Europe than Israel is.
Even Malta, which it's official language is Maltese - a North African Arabic dialect (or in short - arabic with heavy italian influence), a semitic language, is now part of Europe.

Anyway, youre view on the subject of Israel and the EU clear.
You are willing to consider Israel joinning the EU as long as it has peace.
OK. thumbsup.gif

Now, can we please pass the question to another member (or continue our disscusion over the PM)?  tongue.gif

Edited by Erikl, 20 September 2004 - 01:18 PM.

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#32    Talon

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Posted 21 September 2004 - 03:30 PM

QUOTE
Critics have also implicated the barrier in the drowning deaths of at least 4,000 people who have died trying to cross the straits of Gibraltar to enter Spain.".


Illegal immigrants who shouldnít have been trying to enter Spain illegally  rolleyes.gif (I know that sounds harsh, but its the truth)

QUOTE
Anyhow - I was talking about the actually building of seperation fences, which the EU seem to attack Israel over it.


Dude I really donít care about fences or walls, so long as it only includes Israeli territory and not Palestinian. Hell I donít care if the UN personally built a wall around the entire Middle East to keep the terrorists in, have another Iron Curtain. tongue.gif


QUOTE
And in top of all this - the EU built a seperation wall on an occupied Moroccan land, not to defend itself from terrorists, but to keep immigrants from working in it's territory.


And if Spain wants a big wall to keep illegal immigrants out, who cares.  tongue.gif Anyway I find it funny you talk about Occupied Moroccan land when the IDF as in Palestine (before you post, I'm not writting that to spark another IDF debate, we've been, done that, everyone knows the score thumbsup.gif ).


QUOTE
As to youre alligations of me being paranoid - you can sing it all day, but you have no proof of it (and please read the followings before responding only to this sentence...).
Jews have been persecuted in Europe for the last 2,000.
Only 60 years ago, Europe (except for the UK and Denmark) genocided it's Jewish population, so we left Europe to our original homeland.
Now, Europe is hurting Israel politically, by pulling out sanctions, funding weapons of mass Jihad against Israelis, etc.


Dude, the BNP wins a local by-election which is barely noticed and your worried their going to win the next election, your convinced France, Germany and Russia are going fascist; you believe the Red Cross and the UN are aiding Palestinian terrorists; and that Europe is out to get you.
Thatís paranoia tongue.gif

Anyway, you keep playing the race card of 2000 years and the holocaust. Yes both were terrible, however a lot of people were persecuted for thousands of years and many groups lost huge populations over history (if keep to WW2 then Russia lost 20 million people) and Maoist Chinaís has killed what between 35-65 million of its own people. Those events where terrible yes, but this is now, not 60 years ago, and currently in the world there are civil wars in Africa, people starving in China, people being brainwashed into not even knowing their second-class citizens in North Korea, thousands of civilians dead in Iraq etc etc. So no matter what in the past, no matter how terrible, please stop constantly placing the race card, because at the moment in the world there are places where such evils are still occurring.

huh.gif Its actually something we should all realise, that no matter how bad things are in our nations, things could be much much worse. sad.gif

Anyway if Europe is so bad why would you want to join tongue.gif

P.S. Ireland didn't, bet Switerland didn't, and a lot of those who did only did it because they were under Nazi occupation.

QUOTE
I would consider him having both, just as you have both Scottish culture and British culture.


I have NO British culture.  disgust.gif



QUOTE
LOL† †
Best joke I've heared today!

Last time I checked, Jews were reading, writting, building temples, writting poetry and fighting with something else but rocks and stones already 3,300 years ago.†

Human civilization started in the middle-east, not in Europe.†

(ps - no, I'm not petronising here, but just responded the same way you did).


Iíll agree youíre post is correct, that was a slip on my part, Ďcultureí isnít actually the word I meant, I meant Ďcountryí. As evidence of this I point out in the rest of the sentence I talk about Israeliís age not Judaism. blush.gif
I could at this point give you a lecture on the pot calling the kettle black over accusing me of answering half-sentences. But Iím, above that kind of thing. tongue.gif

Anyway, if we go with my argument on country, the Celts controlled western Europe about 5,000 years ago, then the Romans pushed us to the sea, and brought in the German tribes to settle from the East into France, England etc. Thus forming the Celtic cultures of the far west, the majority German, and then the Mediterranean races in Spain, Italy etc. This set culture thousands of years before Israel appeared. If we wish to talk of modern civilisations, yes you could bring in discussions on Mesopotamia and its knock on effects on later European empires and nations,and yes if you wanted to be technical you could claim the Kingdom of Israel was set up in 3500 BC when the Celts were still in lion cloths and only just becoming the first European race to enter its iron age. However, since most European nations and most cultures were set down by the movements of the Roman Empire Iím going to go with that event.


QUOTE
First of all, both Israel and Turkey are in Asia (Israel most certainly isn't part of Africa).
And the EU doesn't end in Greece - it includes Cyprus, which is in Asia (although it is an Island, it is more to the east than Turkey, and is considered Asia).



Yeah, I always considered Israel Asian too,  tongue.gif Africa and Asia being spit by the Red Sea.  huh.gif I actually called it part of Africa because I got the impression you were offended at being called Asian. My mistake tongue.gif

As for Cyprus Iím talking about mainland, yes, I know, Turkey is closer to us than it, however Iím not interested in debating the partisanship of Mediterranean Island. tongue.gif  thumbsup.gif

As for Malta is close proximity to Sicily  as well as being stuck in the middle of Mediterranean as far Iím concerned makes it European no matter what its language.  thumbsup.gif

My issue rather is with the mainland, as you point out Israel and Turkey are in Asia, hence not European. If your let in, then we might as well tell Syria and Lebanon which also have borders with the Mediterranean that they can join once theyíve sorted out their human rights problems. Then lets have the new Iraq as well, why not, we have some parts of the ME, why stop there. blink.gif


QUOTE
Anyway, youre view on the subject of Israel and the EU clear.
You are willing to consider Israel joinning the EU as long as it has peace.
OK.†




No. As I said I donít consider you part of Europe.

Maybe in the future a Greater Europe will appear emerge to contain you, but for now Iím content with a lesser Europe whose borders end with the opposite side of the Mediterranean, the Sea of Marmara (I am of course ignoring Turkeyís foothold into Europe next to Greece and Bulgaria), and then the border with Russia in the East. A greater Europe would of course include Russia as technically Europeís eastern border with Asia is the Ural mountains and the Black and Caspian Seas. Isreal certainly has the potential to be part of greater Europe, in time, but at the moment lesser Europe must be unified and sorted out, first off dealing with the Balkans.

Anyway this is a subjective issue, its all based on personal opinion. Whether you or I want Israel or Turkey in Europe isnít going to effect the outcome.  tongue.gif


QUOTE
Now, can we please pass the question to another member (or continue our disscusion over the PM)?


No problem, I'm finsihed here.

Edited by Talon S., 21 September 2004 - 10:32 PM.

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#33    wunarmdscissor

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Posted 22 September 2004 - 10:56 AM

QUOTE

I have NO British culture. 





NOw talon come on everything in our lives in this country is down to our BRITISH heriitage , even our very freeedom.

Dont condemn being british so easily.

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#34    Erikl

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Posted 22 September 2004 - 04:14 PM

QUOTE
Dude, the BNP wins a local by-election which is barely noticed and your worried their going to win the next election, your convinced France, Germany and Russia are going fascist; you believe the Red Cross and the UN are aiding Palestinian terrorists; and that Europe is out to get you.
Thatís paranoia


First of all, I wasn't worry that they are going to win next elections - I simply asked what their victory in those elections meant in British election system, because I'm not familiar with all those "East-London", "West-London" etc. election areas.

I've never said that France or Germany are going fascist - stop putting words in my mouth.
I said that I'm not surprised at all that the neo-Nazi party and the Communist party scored high in Eastern Germany - and I gave a reasonable explanation for this, an explanation which you seem to agree with.
As for france - I said they are going through Islamization, not fascism, and that they've become an anti-Semitic country that Jews are no longer able to live safely.
With a population of more than 10% muslim, and the fact that muslims population growth in france is three times more than that of non-muslims french, there is a little doubt that in 20-30 years about 40% of the french would be muslims.
Also, with all the reports about the violence against Jews in france - this again is not paranoia, but hard facts.

The popularity of neo-Nazism in Russia is well known and feared not only by me but most experts of russia in the west as well as in russia itself.
If I'm not mistaken, at least two seperate articles about the rise of neo-Nazism in Russia were put here only months ago.
Here's what wikipedia as to say about neo-Nazism in Russia:

"As of 2004, the Russian neo-Nazis constitute one of the greatest potential threats to the political and social stability in Russia. Whereas Vladimir Putin's government seems to keep them in check, if the economic and social conditions in the country will deteriorate significantly in the future, an attempted neo-Nazi rebellion can well be on the horizon."


"you believe the Red Cross and the UN are aiding Palestinian terrorists"
I've put here several articles from credible sources about Red Corss's ambulances used to transport palestinian terrorists to Israel.

I've never said the UN is aiding Palestinian terrorists - I said that the UN is largely anti-Israeli due to a very high proportion of it's members represented by muslim or arab countries, known by even the most ignorant of people to be anti-Israeli.
Also past resolutions passed by the UN due to this fact are well known and remembered - for example the resolution that equated Zionism to racism (which was cancelled 15 years later, but nevertheless was passed due to soviet and muslim majority in the UN).

As for "Europe comming to get you" - I've never said that too.
What I did say, is that Europe is biased against Israel (which can easily be proven by a short poll among this site's European members about Israel), and that here in Israel we feel that after Europe persecuted us for nearly 2,000 years, it knows hurt us politically and diplomatically when we left Europe and returned to our original homeland.

Again you put words in my mouth and damagogically make it look as if it's parnoia. But that won't help you, because everything I put here is backed with articles and credible sources. You, however, never ever even tried to refute those claims. You always pull out the paranoid card whenever youre out of arguments.


QUOTE
Anyway, you keep playing the race card of 2000 years and the holocaust.

Dude, those 2,000 years are anything but over.
True, most Jews are now safe and not suffering from persecution, but that's only thanks for the re-creation of an independant Jewish state out of Europe.
60 years ago, Europe's Jewry was 11 million people.
Today it's less than 1 million.
Also you seem to forget that maybe anti-Semitism was in a comma in western Europe, but it was alive and kicking in eastern Europe, from Eastern Germany to the USSR.
And even today, ONLY 60 years after the Holocaust, anti-Semitism again in back in big time in western Europe (mainly in France).

QUOTE
Yes both were terrible, however a lot of people were persecuted for thousands of years and many groups lost huge populations over history (if keep to WW2 then Russia lost 20 million people) and Maoist Chinaís has killed what between 35-65 million of its own people.

Dude, besides the Gypsies, can you give me a name of any other European ethnic group that is continent-wide scapegoat of Europe?
You know what - even if you include the gypsies, one could say that they look different (indian-look) and have seperate lives (they are not integrate in European societies) and are new commers ("only" 700 years ago did they arrive to eastern Europe), and so racism and persecution can be explaned as hatred towards people who are different (like the hatred to American Indians in America, or black people in the US, etc.).
But Jews don't look different from their neighbours.
Most of them are secular.
Many of them that have converted to Christianity were persecuted (proving it's not about religion), they were persecuted when they became 100% integrated into European society (Germany of the 20th and 19th century), and when they lived far away from non-Jewish population (pogroms in eastern Europe in Jewish villages).

Also, lessening the holocaust by equating it to the death of 20 million  Russian soldiers in WW2, or 30 million deaths in China's civil war, is not that far from denying the holocaust. You are walking on a thin line here...

QUOTE
Anyway if Europe is so bad why would you want to join

I don't want to join - as I said before, I've aleady explained why Israel shouldn't join today.

QUOTE
P.S. Ireland didn't, bet Switerland didn't, and a lot of those who did only did it because they were under Nazi occupation.

What are you talking about? Switerland, even though neutral, was one of the biggest collaborators to the Nazi war machine, storing most of the Third Reich's money.
They also let death trains pass through their territory from north Itally to Poland.

"and a lot of those who did only did it because they were under Nazi occupation"
This excuse could easilly be refuted by the fact that denmark, even though occupied by Germany, saved all it's Jewish population.
And also, except for Poland, rescuing or hidding Jews wasn't punishable by death in any country occupied.
And as for "Nazi occupation" - most countries that the Nazis occupied were rulled by local fascists not Germans, and had a big popularity among the local people. One can give as an example the Vichy government in France, the Ustashe regime in Croatia, Slovakia, etc.
Nazi collaborators were very common during the holocaust. As a matter of fact, the Nazis could never have succeeded in killing so many if it weren't for the huge help they got from the local populations.

QUOTE
If your let in, then we might as well tell Syria and Lebanon which also have borders with the Mediterranean that they can join once theyíve sorted out their human rights problems. Then lets have the new Iraq as well, why not, we have some parts of the ME, why stop there.

Oh but the difference is that Syria, Lebanon and Iraq have no connection to Europe, not in culture, civilization or history.
Syria, Lebanon and Iraq are part of the Arab world.
They share a common Arab culture, language, and civilization.
Just like Cyprus's membership isn't based on geography, but on culture, civilization, language etc., so does Israel connection to Europe.

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