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Those Who've Seen the Hatman/Shadow People


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#1246    XingWi

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Posted 19 June 2013 - 11:07 AM

View PostDetective Mystery 2013, on 17 June 2013 - 02:40 AM, said:

Could there be varied types of shadow people? I'm not bothered by the Hat Man. He seems cartoonish and nostalgic to me. However, the "monks" are another thing. They fill me with something akin to fear and dread. Of course, cowls give me the creeps because I associate them with scenes in horror movies. You know the ones. A group of menacing satanists chase a family through a small town in the conclusion of a cheap film from the 1970s. Anyway, I think that there are different kinds of these entities, with different aims and origins. The "old hag" (my encounter) is the most frightening to me. She just oozes malevolence, and she's so black that she makes the dark of night look like the light of day. Your life might change if you see her in a wholly awake, aware state.


Of course it is possible. Logically, no one can prove that there are no different kinds. Perhaps you are referring to the articles that are spread everywhere on the internet about these different kinds.

But I ask, why the disguise if there is no deception?

Modern "researchers/authors" only mention three "kinds", but they never care about the the numerous age old cliches:

4. "god"
5. "Jesus"
6. Angels
7. The little girl who lost her father
8. The seductress
9. The teacher/guide
10. Extra-terrestrials
11. The black dog
12. The python

That is why I mentioned "distraction" and it is working so well. All these researchers jumping in to cash in on this "new" paranormal phenomenon, they never care to refer to the ancient sources of eschatolology that have already discussed everything in detail, at least to compare with their research. I can assure you one thing DM, you can test this yourself with shadows (no matter what you believe them to be, whether guardians, devils, guides, or just activated archetypes but they) are not interested in individuals as persons. What would the "old hag" achieve by strangling a sleeping victim, a common person? How many same old hags are there in the world? Were they just replicated this way to appear throughout the world? What would the hatman achieve by just standing outside your window staring at you, and doing nothing?

If there are any different kinds, as far as I know, there are only two. The devils and the shadow-self. The rest are non-sentients like spiders, snakes and scorpions, cats and dogs. But even then all of them originate from the same lower plane of the astral.


#1247    Detective Mystery 2014

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Posted 20 June 2013 - 03:10 AM

I can't say for sure, Xing. My guess is that there are varied explanations. The old hag likely is a part of sleep paralysis. It's the form and shape that the human mind creates. It's a bit like how we see objects and people in clouds. Combine that phenomenon with our culture. It probably is that prosaic in most instances. Still, there are "old hags" that aren't a part of sleep paralysis. I don't know how to definitively classify them. We all have our own explanations and theories. My guess is that they're sentient entities of some kind. They might come from another dimension. They might be from the spiritual realm (afterlife souls or demonic entities). Whatever they are, once you encounter one, you'll remember it for the rest of your life.

There is one reality with billions of versions.

#1248    markprice

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Posted 20 June 2013 - 04:51 AM

View PostXingWi, on 19 June 2013 - 10:59 AM, said:

You are still defending the undefendable? :w00t:  He is not worth this effort, dude... let him drown already.

The psychoanalysts themselves rely on all kinds of theories/beliefs in their practices, don't they? BTW, I wasn't speaking about the psychoanalysts, I was speaking about the neo-pagan jungian fans that often quote Carl Jung for "scientific" evidence of their beliefs as if their beliefs hold more water than that of other religions, when in reality, they are attempting to substantiate their beliefs with nothing but just another set of beliefs.

You mentioned the "error" of confusing the image with the being it represents and when I posted my response it suddenly becomes irrelevant? The images/symbols and what they represent are the explanations put forward by later apologetics. Polytheistic religions did not originate this way. The ancients just began assuming different things as their dieties and started worshipping them.

Jung is "undefendable", seriously? He doesn't need me to defend him. It's irrelevant because your lack of understanding of deities has nothing to do with what they represent or this thread.

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Are you referring to the subconcious state or the subconscious mind? I was referring to the the topographical map, not a diving submarine, the iceberg model, one of Sigmund Freud's earliest models of the human mind that he divided into depths/levels but it kept evolving into other models, the last one was also only theoritical.  You can subdivide the human mind into as many levels as you wish and name them in whatever way you like but your model will still  be a theory among a set of other theories. Nobody knows for sure the exact underlying mechanism of the human mind. I challenge anyone to give the objective evidence of any particular psyche model they have chosen to believe in. I bet no one can. The word subconscious was already popular long before any of these theories were around. Devoid of techincal connotations it can be used in many ways.

Yeah, none of that is the subconscious. You are talking about theories you have already rejected instead of the subconscious which is everything you don't know.

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But you cannot accept these beliefs as scientific facts just because they are presented in the appropriate (or "scientific") language.  Synchronicity is just a belief of Carl Jung among numerous others. It is not scientific. He was trying to prove one theory/belief (i.e. of collective unconscious) only with another unestablished theory/belief.

I said it happens all the time; it doesn't get any more real than that. Now you are rejecting a reality already proven to be what it is. Just because somebody names a phenomena doesn't mean he invented it, so by rejecting the person you throw the truth out with the corpse, so to speak.


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The collective unconscious is just a belief my friend, it is not a scientifically proven fact. Give me any example of this "synchronicity " and I can give at least five equally strong explanations for that, confirmation bias being one of them.

You can read the book Jung on the Paranormal and save me the trouble of going back through it to prove you wrong.


Quote

Okay, we both shared in bits and pieces. Although I remember giving you a brief summary of my experiences, I also remember mentioning the river part, the black thick sewage like water and you said that you had drawn the same river on the cover of your book and that you dove into that river once at the point of no return or something like that. Remember?

Those were different experiences.

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The Christian and the Eastern hells, their difference is not just a perceived difference, they are indeed different. This hell (the lower plane) has nothing to do with sin. Still, I believe that both hells i.e. the Abrahamic and the Eastern hells are real. In this astral hell the senses are magnified, the heat, the pain, the torment is just as real as it would be if it happened in the physical, even if it is not your physical body that is being tormented.

Hell is hell no matter who describes it.

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I have been to the river quite a few times. The river flows with thick black sewage and smells horrible. It is huge, may be atleast half a mile wide. The atmosphere is always cold and dark there, the air smells putrid. There are some very old (ancient) stone bridges to cross the river that look like they are on the verge of falling. There are some hanging bridges with brittle old wooden planks that easily break/crumble if one even attempts to place their foot on them. It is like it's almost impossible to cross these bridges without falling into the water below. Below the stairs that lead to the bridges there are cages that contain huge black grim dogs "shadow dogs", voracious, growling all the time . You cannot climb up one of these bridges or descend from them without running into these dogs at the banks. And if these dogs break loose, then your journey ends then and there. They attack you, tear you into pieces in seconds. If a beginner encounters one of these, it is best to simply come back to the physical immediately because I believe that "repercussion" is possible although not serious.

The network of caves, the abodes of shadows, snakes and spiders, I cannot possibly describe all of it now. I thought of replying yesterday but I was afraid it would get too long and I was already too tired, but I guess it won't be possible even today. Maybe another time. I have to admit, my experiences in this particular lowr plane are in no way close to yours but you keep getting credit from me for that, don't you? BTW, have you observed we always end up arguing even when both of us are already on the same page? Maybe both of us are equally stubborn about these tiny differences. :lol:

That's like a chunk of experience; maybe some day you can put the pieces in order like a synopsis or outline. All I know is I wasn't able to rest until I did that for myself.

Quote

I asked that because I think your Jesus was a shadow (devil). I'm not sure though.

Of course it was but it fooled me at the time.

Quote

Alright, I agree, Mark... I left vast blanks. Because I only mentioned my greatest loss during these experiences - the dilemma (and trust me, the dilemma is the worst thing that ever happened to me in my entire life because I'm one of those that prefer to die rather than losing their faith in God), and I only mentioned the lower planes where they come from, not that these were my only experiences. It is impossible to recollect and share all such experiences of my life, I only share what is relevant and I don't consider experiencing these events as something good or something to brag about unlike some other members here, I believe that the more paranormal experiences the more shame. But I have experienced such events my entire life. I communicated with them, learned from them, recieved mandalas (symbols), made pacts then broke them, struggled, fought almost everything. And I'm not proud of it, I can happily exchange all these experiences for a normal life anytime. Although, I'm very fortunate that I didn't experience the core of hell, I know that many don't survive or retain their sanity after falling into that level, still I personally know some others that were dragged or went to the core and came back. I have collected a lot of accounts of this hell from those who have experienced it directly, I mentioned to you some of those in PM. I come from a culture where good/bad spiritual experiences are like an everyday thing.

You have experienced Satan and learned that shadows are from Satan, and I came to know about it through the 'spirit guide" that came to me in the beginning, and from other accounts as well, but in no way is my belief any less stronger than yours about their origin, I'm so certain about them being from Satan/the Devil/Shaitan/Yamaraja (or whatever name he is known by in other religions/cultures) that I can swear about their origin as a fact, it is like a fact to me as much as it is like a fact to you. It is unfortunate that you had to experience the core to learn about it. Still, you should be grateful to God that you survived after experiencing that much evil. Although, I appreciate your courage to share your bad experiences, many people don't have guts to admit that they were victims of something so destructive, most people post in these forums only to brag about their spiritual experiences.

There's no shame in being a victim of something like this, especially if it begins when you are child. That's not fair play, it's really f-ing evil. Most people don't even know that something is there so they want proof. If they got proof then they would have to deal with it because it's all personal proof and that takes time to be truly convincing. At first one might think it was a fluke but then it happens again and so on. What interests me is the chain of events that provides personal proof. What p***es me off is when someone demands you should be able to prove it to someone else. How can you prove a process unless the person goes through it?

"How can someone prove that a rainbow exists to a blind man?"

#1249    Brian Topp

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Posted 20 June 2013 - 05:19 AM

I call this bullcrap for the most part,

Many times I have known to talk in my sleep, wake up believing some one in the room, Ran after something, attacked a lamp, attacked a mirror, argued with the air, one time my wife said i told telling her a man was trying to kill her and i  once was dragging her across to my side of the bed.

This normally happens during the christmas season, a high stress time for some one working in retail with terrible long hours, pushy customers and agressive managers trying you to push a sale. The other time is my days during and after birthday where memories of my abusive father would attack my subconcious and i would relive my child hood in my dreams.

During those times I have slept in the living room to not upset my wife.

My wife, Thought i had a ghost haunting me. After finally went to a doctor who ran tests where i sleep a few days in an observation  room, he told me i wake up over 300 times during my sleep. He then told me to video record my self and show him these night terrors i have. Two weeks later, There i was watching myself jumping out of bed to yell at the corner of the room, screaming at my father in gibberish where my wife turned on the light and as if by remote control, i went quiet, turned around and climbed into bed the next day I did not remember any thing until my wife told me.

After my doctor watched my video, he told me it is that I need to have regular sleeping patterns and working retail is part of the cause of my sleep paralysis, also eating meals before going to bed is another problem (which i do a lot during the christmas holidays) that i haven't given my body a chance to digess it.

These hatmen, shadowmen, what ever are most likely sleep paralysis. It's where your brain is not fully awake. Even though i wake up to see "villians" or "shadows" or "my father", i know it is sleep paralysis.

Edited by Brian Topp, 20 June 2013 - 05:25 AM.

It is easier to claim it is paranormal than taking the hard route and find out what really happened.


#1250    markprice

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Posted 20 June 2013 - 05:30 AM

View PostBrian Topp, on 20 June 2013 - 05:19 AM, said:

I call this bullcrap for the most part,

Many times I have known to talk in my sleep, wake up believing some one in the room, Ran after something, attacked a lamp, attacked a mirror, argued with the air, one time my wife said i told telling her a man was trying to kill her and i  once was dragging her across to my side of the bed.

This normally happens during the christmas season, a high stress time for some one working in retail with terrible long hours, pushy customers and agressive managers trying you to push a sale. The other time is my days during and after birthday where memories of my abusive father would attack my subconcious and i would relive my child hood in my dreams.

During those times I have slept in the living room to not upset my wife.

My wife, Thought i had a ghost haunting me. After finally went to a doctor who ran tests where i sleep a few days in an observation  room, he told me i wake up over 300 times during my sleep. He then told me to video record my self and show him these night terrors i have. Two weeks later, There i was watching myself jumping out of bed to yell at the corner of the room, screaming at my father in gibberish where my wife turned on the light and as if by remote control, i went quiet, turned around and climbed into bed the next day I did not remember any thing until my wife told me.

After my doctor watched my video, he told me it is that I need to have regular sleeping patterns and working retail is part of the cause of my sleep paralysis, also eating meals before going to bed is another problem (which i do a lot during the christmas holidays) that i haven't given my body a chance to digess it.

These hatmen, shadowmen, what ever are most likely sleep paralysis. It's where your brain is not fully awake. Even though i wake up to see "villians" or "shadows" or "my father", i know it is sleep paralysis.

Um, no, not for everyone, a person does not necessarily have to be in bed or asleep...interesting story though.

"How can someone prove that a rainbow exists to a blind man?"

#1251    markprice

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Posted 20 June 2013 - 08:12 PM

View PostXingWi, on 20 June 2013 - 03:04 PM, said:

You think about fish and coincidentally fish is served in the dinner the same day.  And you take it as a meaningful coincidence? But what you failed to realize is that there have been another thousand times you thought about fish but fish wasn't served in the dinner the same day or it was served on the day you didn't think about it. If fish is served at least once in a month and you think about it at least twice in a month, then according to the law of probability there are (2/30).(1/30) = 2/900 i.e. 1 in 450 chances of the two being overlapped. You are taking that one occurence as a meaningful coincidence when its probability is already 1 in 450 and leaving out the rest 1000 times it didn't coincide when its probably was 449 out of 450. What you thought of as a meaningful coincidence was in fact only a random coincidence occuring within the bounds of its probabilty limits, out of those 1000 times that you thought about fish, scientifically, it would still be called random even if it overlapped 3 times with the fish being served but you are jumping in joy about just one coincidence. How logical is that?  No this is not science. From a scientific point of view it is just superstition.

Here is a better example(JUNG):

On April 1 1949, I made a note in the morning of an inscription containing a figure that was half man half fish. There was fish for lunch. Somebody mentioned the custom of making an "April Fish" of someone. In the afternoon a former patient of mine, whom I had not seen for months, showed me some impressive pictures of fish. In the evening, I was shown a piece of embroidery with sea monsters and fish in it. The next morning, I saw a former patient, who was visiting me for the first time in ten years. She dreamed of a large fish the night before. A few months later when I was using this series for a larger work and had just finished writing it down, I walked over to a spot by the lake in front of the house, where I had already been several times that morning. This time a fish a foot long lay on the sea wall. Since no one else was present I have no idea how the fish could have got there.

The greater number of terms in a series, or the more unusual its character, the more improbable it becomes. It is more improbable than mere duplication.

"How can someone prove that a rainbow exists to a blind man?"

#1252    Brian Topp

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Posted 21 June 2013 - 03:47 AM

View Postmarkprice, on 20 June 2013 - 05:30 AM, said:

Um, no, not for everyone, a person does not necessarily have to be in bed or asleep...interesting story though.

sto·ry  

/ˈstôrē/
Noun
  • An account of imaginary or real people and events told for entertainment: "an adventure story".
Synonyms
tale - narrative - history - fable - floor - storey

Difference between the stories here and my events, is that is not a fictional tale, I have evidence by my doctor on it, I have had medical examination which can be proven unlike others.

Also, Maybe you should of read the first sentence i wrote..

Quote

I call this bullcrap for the most part,


It is easier to claim it is paranormal than taking the hard route and find out what really happened.


#1253    Farmer77

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Posted 21 June 2013 - 06:30 AM

View PostDetective Mystery 2013, on 11 June 2013 - 04:26 AM, said:

I'm on the Jungian fence on this one. It's likely that the old hag is in Jung's bag in that "she" comes from the very real common phenomenon of night terrors and sleep paralysis, and this might have evolved into an archetype since it's a shared experience. Like you, I don't think that all of these phenomena are evil branches of the same wicked tree. I think that they're part of a paranormal menagerie, something akin to normal zoology with all of the varied species found in that field.

If it helps ...or muddys this argument my shadow experience involved both the hag and hat man concurrently

I don't suffer from insanity, I rather enjoy it

#1254    markprice

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Posted 21 June 2013 - 02:47 PM

View PostBrian Topp, on 21 June 2013 - 03:47 AM, said:

sto·ry  

/ˈstôrē/
Noun
  • An account of imaginary or real people and events told for entertainment: "an adventure story".
Synonyms
tale - narrative - history - fable - floor - storey

Difference between the stories here and my events, is that is not a fictional tale, I have evidence by my doctor on it, I have had medical examination which can be proven unlike others.

Also, Maybe you should of read the first sentence i wrote..

A story does not have to be fiction. Also fiction tells the truth while non-fiction talks about the truth and both can be "bullcrap", so it all depends.

"How can someone prove that a rainbow exists to a blind man?"

#1255    markprice

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Posted 21 June 2013 - 08:43 PM

View PostFarmer77, on 21 June 2013 - 06:30 AM, said:

If it helps ...or muddys this argument my shadow experience involved both the hag and hat man concurrently

Me too; mine was the cloaked void (basically hatman in a cloak) followed by what I would call Lady Evil (because I like Black Sabbath). Same beings working in pairs concurrently.

There is no argument here, just some mud slinging to watch out for.

"How can someone prove that a rainbow exists to a blind man?"

#1256    Elizabeth941

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Posted 21 June 2013 - 08:46 PM

Hi.  :)

I'm "new" to this site - but saw this thread and I had to reply...

I didn't even know "he" was called a "hat man" until I came upon that term around 2 days ago...  I about crapped myself, to be honest!, when I saw a drawing/description of him...  it was SO accurate as to what I saw...  he LET me see him before he "de-materialized" and FLEW SO FAST to the other side of the living room, to the wall/window around 15 feet away from him.  This happened twice - almost back to back, the same night/early morning, around 2:30am, or so...

I've seen "my" hat man twice - same figure - tall man (at least 7 feet tall, I'd say), opaque black, not able to see ANY facial/body features, but he had on what looked kind of like a cowboy hat and a LONG trenchcoat...

Nobody else at my house (except for myself and my dog) have ever sensed him or seen him...

I saw him a few years back (I believe it was a few years max. - can't remember exactly when it was), haven't SEEN him since that, but I "feel" he's for sure still with me (not ALL the time, but I get a completely different "body feel" when I sense him, or anything else paranormal)...  when I saw him - I believe the atmosphere at my house was NOT good.  He seemed/felt like pure evil to me...  I'm a stay at home Mom to a 4 year old daughter w/ special needs - and I was VERY stressed out and overwhelmed feeling, when I saw him... he seems to share his "being there" w/ me when I'm really stressed, when I really think about it...

If any of this info helps anyone....

I'm Athiest...
I'll be 34 this November...
I'm a spiritual person, just not religious...
I've just started to learn about meditating and opening your third eye - VERY interesting stuff - can't wait to learn more about meditation...
I'm "bi-polar" but on meds for it...

-Elizabeth  :)


#1257    Detective Mystery 2014

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Posted 22 June 2013 - 02:32 AM

View PostFarmer77, on 21 June 2013 - 06:30 AM, said:

If it helps ...or muddys this argument my shadow experience involved both the hag and hat man concurrently

How did they react to each other? It reminds me of a comic book where two superheroes/supervillains appear in the same issue.

There is one reality with billions of versions.

#1258    markprice

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Posted 22 June 2013 - 03:43 PM

I may or may not have misused the word concurrently. It was not simultaneous but involved in the same event that can last for years.  The event is when synchronicity really kicks in at an astonishing pace. They each play a part and actually there are three: cloaked void (first), Lady Evil, and then ultimately a Devil not to mention a host of demons. It's a cast of characters playing the parts they always have for a single purpose. This is when the sh!t hits the fan where time seems to speed and warp while driving someone to an unknown end because there is a choice involved. They provide enough personal evidence through horrifying experience so that the person will not be able to avoid making an informed decision.

Anyway, that's my story.

"How can someone prove that a rainbow exists to a blind man?"

#1259    Detective Mystery 2014

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Posted 23 June 2013 - 03:08 AM

View Postmarkprice, on 22 June 2013 - 03:43 PM, said:

I may or may not have misused the word concurrently. It was not simultaneous but involved in the same event that can last for years.  The event is when synchronicity really kicks in at an astonishing pace. They each play a part and actually there are three: cloaked void (first), Lady Evil, and then ultimately a Devil not to mention a host of demons. It's a cast of characters playing the parts they always have for a single purpose. This is when the sh!t hits the fan where time seems to speed and warp while driving someone to an unknown end because there is a choice involved. They provide enough personal evidence through horrifying experience so that the person will not be able to avoid making an informed decision.

Anyway, that's my story.

Ah, so you post with two user names. :) Your theory might be correct, but it could be that they aren't the same beings, just part of the same type of phenomenon. It's like how someone might see both Bigfoot and Yeti during the course of their life. Of course, the proximity of the shadow beings makes the experience seem more immediate. You might be correct about a single source from which they spring. On the other hand, there may be no relationships between the beings except for how dark and strange they are. They might be from alternative realities if they exist at all. I didn't read your full story, so I realize my theories might not apply to your own situation, which some might say is caused by normal factors that are interpreted in a weird way by the five senses.

There is one reality with billions of versions.

#1260    Farmer77

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Posted 23 June 2013 - 04:19 AM

View PostDetective Mystery 2013, on 22 June 2013 - 02:32 AM, said:

How did they react to each other? It reminds me of a comic book where two superheroes/supervillains appear in the same issue.

The old lady was next to and leaning over my bed rocking back and forth while the hatman stood in my doorway. Id be lying if I said I remembered exact details (20ish years ago) but I've always felt they were interacting in some manner.


Thats funny BTW.

Edited by Farmer77, 23 June 2013 - 04:20 AM.

I don't suffer from insanity, I rather enjoy it




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