Rhomphaia Posted July 23, 2005 #1 Share Posted July 23, 2005 I would like to open this by saying that I am putting this thread here for two reasons. One, I do not know where else it would fit and two, this is a historical study. Every empire in history that has overcome every challenge, defeated all of its enemies and withstood time has fallen in the same way. All of these empires have collapsed from within. The Egyptians, Romans, Persians, Russians, French, English, and many others all tore themselves apart. America is the only empire left right now and it is starting to suffer from the same civil dissent, political infighting, power-grabbing, over reaching and resource deficiency that all of these other empires faced and dissolved under. I am not saying America is going to collapse entirely, but that its influence on the world is going to weaken signifigantly in the coming years. In order to survive, this nation, like so many others before it, is going to have to cut back on several things. I would like everyone's opinions on this and if you see, historically, if America is heading the same way as the Roman Empire. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ROGER Posted July 23, 2005 #2 Share Posted July 23, 2005 One of the reasons for the fall of The Roman Empire was that, though it was militarily strong enough to defeat other nations Armys, then did not have the Money or Man Power to hold the lands that were over run. An analogy that could compare to the U.S.A. in it's current state of Globule Policing. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rhomphaia Posted July 23, 2005 Author #3 Share Posted July 23, 2005 Exactly what I am thinking, but Rome, and the British Empire, both also fell to another thing, political infighting. If you pay attention to the news here in America, that is all you hear about in politics, is the fighting. Even the major media networks (Fox and CNN especially) have waded into the battle. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LarryOldtimer Posted July 23, 2005 #4 Share Posted July 23, 2005 More, I think, that as a nation becomes more civilized, the less that nation is able, or willing, to defend itself. When conflicts happen between the barbarians and genteel civilized folk, the barbarians always win. It is not enough to have only the weapons and forces needed to stay on top . . . it is also needed to have the will to use these weapons and forces, and in war, to be as violent and vicious as those being fought. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LunarWarrior Posted July 23, 2005 #5 Share Posted July 23, 2005 More, I think, that as a nation becomes more civilized, the less that nation is able, or willing, to defend itself. When conflicts happen between the barbarians and genteel civilized folk, the barbarians always win. It is not enough to have only the weapons and forces needed to stay on top . . . it is also needed to have the will to use these weapons and forces, and in war, to be as violent and vicious as those being fought. 749992[/snapback] Well I dont think that war is the answer and the stronger always wins. I think the mind is the strongest weapon. Strategy will conquor strength any day. America should be strategically thinking of how to prevent war instead of using our scientists to create more destructive bombs and whatnot. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hermai Posted July 23, 2005 #6 Share Posted July 23, 2005 I don't think america will fall....as in from the inside. I think we're gonna end up getting nuked...I mean how many countries do we manage to p*** off? really...think about it... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TheGreatWhiteHorse Posted July 23, 2005 #7 Share Posted July 23, 2005 More, I think, that as a nation becomes more civilized, the less that nation is able, or willing, to defend itself. When conflicts happen between the barbarians and genteel civilized folk, the barbarians always win. It is not enough to have only the weapons and forces needed to stay on top . . . it is also needed to have the will to use these weapons and forces, and in war, to be as violent and vicious as those being fought. 749992[/snapback] It is my opinion that your logic is correct, but your application of it is not. You are operating under the assumption that this country (America) is civilized, and that it is not as vicious in battle and conquest as those it fights. I say that is incorrect. This nation is nothing more than a marauding, swollen giant operated by rich old men flailing about in their desperate ploys for power. It is hated by many for a reason...due to it's pompous, elitist attitude and it's habit of destroying the course of history for other nations in order to further it's own agenda. Look at the past CIA manipulation in South America and tell me I'm wrong. Add to all of that the cultural war going on right under our noses each day, and America is in a perilous situation. People here do not accept each other. There is widespread prejudice and it is palpable in daily life. I know that this is so in many places around the world, but it was so in all of those afforementioned empires, too. When the people of an empire (oh wait, Republic)can't even get along, it is circling the drain, folks. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Raptor Posted July 24, 2005 #8 Share Posted July 24, 2005 I don't think america will fall....as in from the inside. I think we're gonna end up getting nuked...I mean how many countries do we manage to p*** off? really...think about it... 750144[/snapback] The second a single nuke is launched (unless its from a terrorist), a country will retalitate, and another will retaliate against that one etc. Basically; whoever has most nukes is superior. I dont have a great knowledge on missiles and other weapons. Once a nuke is launched and on its way to a target, is there a way to stop it? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
marduk Posted July 24, 2005 #9 Share Posted July 24, 2005 Can't stop the nuke, but you can detonate the missile. of course that leaves fissionable material scattered all over your countryside so they don't like to do that until its well into enemy airspace. Either that or Star Wars which doesn't exist allegedly. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LarryOldtimer Posted July 24, 2005 #10 Share Posted July 24, 2005 More, I think, that as a nation becomes more civilized, the less that nation is able, or willing, to defend itself. When conflicts happen between the barbarians and genteel civilized folk, the barbarians always win. It is not enough to have only the weapons and forces needed to stay on top . . . it is also needed to have the will to use these weapons and forces, and in war, to be as violent and vicious as those being fought. 749992[/snapback] It is my opinion that your logic is correct, but your application of it is not. You are operating under the assumption that this country (America) is civilized, and that it is not as vicious in battle and conquest as those it fights. I say that is incorrect. This nation is nothing more than a marauding, swollen giant operated by rich old men flailing about in their desperate ploys for power. It is hated by many for a reason...due to it's pompous, elitist attitude and it's habit of destroying the course of history for other nations in order to further it's own agenda. Look at the past CIA manipulation in South America and tell me I'm wrong. Add to all of that the cultural war going on right under our noses each day, and America is in a perilous situation. People here do not accept each other. There is widespread prejudice and it is palpable in daily life. I know that this is so in many places around the world, but it was so in all of those afforementioned empires, too. When the people of an empire (oh wait, Republic)can't even get along, it is circling the drain, folks. 750222[/snapback] Please point out to me where in my statement I so much as mentioned the US. I didn't. However, I can tell you in a minute that the people in the US of today are much less willing to use force, and much less use force with true viciousness, compared to when I was a teenager, lo those many years ago. As to other countries hating us, so what? Please also tell me just when in history the most powerful country wasn't hated by the people of other countries? People here do not accept each other for a myrid reasons . . . but primarily it is because there is so much racial and cultural diversity in this country. People of diverse culture never get along when times get difficult, and always will band together with those like themselves at those times. Take a good look at the former Yugoslavia, where people of substantially different cultures seemed to be getting along so well . . . the talk of the liberals, with nonsense that if it could happen there, it could happen everywhere. But . . . it didn't happen there either. When Tito died, and the USSR ceased to be a threat to anyone causing trouble, civil war ensued very quickly indeed, with Christians fighting Muslims in short order. To paraphrase a Catholic creed, As it was in the beginning, as it is now, as it will be without end, a troubled world with one culture fighting another where ever there be two or more cultures. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TheGreatWhiteHorse Posted July 24, 2005 #11 Share Posted July 24, 2005 (edited) Perhaps I was wrong for assuming that you spoke of the US ...in the "America's fall" thread. Of course people hate one another. In another thread I just posted on this very idea. If people do not kill each other because of race, religion, income bracket...they will do so for other reasons. Maybe the shape of someone's nose (which has actually happened) or the type of microwave they prefer. Also, you say people of diverse background never get along "when times are difficult"...when are they not? There are always difficult times, no matter how prosperous the fat cats at the top get, and it is a pre-revolution American historical fact that people of diverse cultures and races did indeed do the opposite and band together in the hardest of times, looking past most distinctions. Policy changed this...and we still feel the effects of these policies today in the way generations of twisted racial ideas have molded the viewpoints of millions of people. And, when you say "as far as other countries hating us, so what?"...heh. I would argue that it matters a great deal what the people of the rest of the world think of us. just because a nation is strongest it doesn't get a "get-out-of-foreign-policy-jail-free" card. Obviously not everyone is going to be content with the big nation on campus...but where you say "so what, they will hate us because of who we are" I say "They hate us already...why give them more reason?" Edited July 24, 2005 by TheGreatWhiteHorse Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mr Ed Posted July 24, 2005 #12 Share Posted July 24, 2005 America is not an Empire. It cannot fall through war so the only way would be if everyone caught a disease and died. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
marduk Posted July 24, 2005 #13 Share Posted July 24, 2005 America is not an Empire. It cannot fall through war so the only way would be if everyone caught a disease and died. 750750[/snapback] I like the consensus here as well that america is the most powerfull nation on earth i'd always thought that was the english last time we lost a fight against another nation was 1066. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mr Ed Posted July 24, 2005 #14 Share Posted July 24, 2005 America is good at avoiding land invasions. I think you are forgetting King John. We owned France! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
marduk Posted July 24, 2005 #15 Share Posted July 24, 2005 America is good at avoiding land invasions. I think you are forgetting King John. We owned France! 750833[/snapback] he didn't lose the fight against another nation he lost a fight agaisnt his own when its english v english the english are always gonna lose like we did in 1783 before any smart ass american pipes in. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mr Ed Posted July 24, 2005 #16 Share Posted July 24, 2005 he didn't lose the fight against another nation he lost a fight agaisnt his own I am sorry, that loophole is too poor to get you out of that one. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
marduk Posted July 24, 2005 #17 Share Posted July 24, 2005 (edited) he didn't lose the fight against another nation he lost a fight agaisnt his own I am sorry, that loophole is too poor to get you out of that one. 750853[/snapback] errr ok is this gonna be another case of revisionist history ? you believe that john had a hunchback and a penchant for killing kids in towers right ? http://www.britannia.com/history/magna2.html Edited July 24, 2005 by marduk Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mr Ed Posted July 24, 2005 #18 Share Posted July 24, 2005 (edited) Le French fought the English out of France. Edit- If you are writing a mega lengthy argument post then you can forget about me responding to it with equal time and precision. Edited July 24, 2005 by Mr Ed Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
marduk Posted July 24, 2005 #19 Share Posted July 24, 2005 uhuh i would have thought the fact that there were no french knights in existence on the morning of 26th october 1415 more than made up for Johns screw up but ok yeah i forgot about him its a national failing that exists in me that i don't count Kings of England that weren't legitimate rulers. Hurrah for good king Richard and all that hehe If we are mark'd to die, we are enow To do our country loss; and if to live, The fewer men, the greater share of honour. God's will! I pray thee, wish not one man more. By Jove, I am not covetous for gold, Nor care I who doth feed upon my cost; It yearns me not if men my garments wear; Such outward things dwell not in my desires. But if it be a sin to covet honour, I am the most offending soul alive. No, faith, my coz, wish not a man from England. God's peace! I would not lose so great an honour As one man more methinks would share from me For the best hope I have. O, do not wish one more! Rather proclaim it, Westmoreland, through my host, That he which hath no stomach to this fight, Let him depart; his passport shall be made, And crowns for convoy put into his purse; We would not die in that man's company That fears his fellowship to die with us. This day is call'd the feast of Crispian. He that outlives this day, and comes safe home, Will stand a tip-toe when this day is nam'd, And rouse him at the name of Crispian. He that shall live this day, and see old age, Will yearly on the vigil feast his neighbours, And say 'To-morrow is Saint Crispian.' Then will he strip his sleeve and show his scars, And say 'These wounds I had on Crispian's day.' Old men forget; yet all shall be forgot, But he'll remember, with advantages, What feats he did that day. Then shall our names, Familiar in his mouth as household words- Harry the King, Bedford and Exeter, Warwick and Talbot, Salisbury and Gloucester- Be in their flowing cups freshly rememb'red. This story shall the good man teach his son; And Crispin Crispian shall ne'er go by, From this day to the ending of the world, But we in it shall be remembered- We few, we happy few, we band of brothers; For he to-day that sheds his blood with me Shall be my brother; be he ne'er so vile, This day shall gentle his condition; And gentlemen in England now-a-bed Shall think themselves accurs'd they were not here, And hold their manhoods cheap whiles any speaks That fought with us upon Saint Crispin's day. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LarryOldtimer Posted July 24, 2005 #20 Share Posted July 24, 2005 (edited) Perhaps I was wrong for assuming that you spoke of the US ...in the "America's fall" thread. Of course people hate one another. In another thread I just posted on this very idea. If people do not kill each other because of race, religion, income bracket...they will do so for other reasons. Maybe the shape of someone's nose (which has actually happened) or the type of microwave they prefer. Also, you say people of diverse background never get along "when times are difficult"...when are they not? There are always difficult times, no matter how prosperous the fat cats at the top get, and it is a pre-revolution American historical fact that people of diverse cultures and races did indeed do the opposite and band together in the hardest of times, looking past most distinctions. Policy changed this...and we still feel the effects of these policies today in the way generations of twisted racial ideas have molded the viewpoints of millions of people. And, when you say "as far as other countries hating us, so what?"...heh. I would argue that it matters a great deal what the people of the rest of the world think of us. just because a nation is strongest it doesn't get a "get-out-of-foreign-policy-jail-free" card. Obviously not everyone is going to be content with the big nation on campus...but where you say "so what, they will hate us because of who we are" I say "They hate us already...why give them more reason?" 750646[/snapback] I strongly suggest that you read the following from George Washington's farewell address (I do believe that he knew quite a bit of how things were back then, and keep in mind that he was speaking to all of the new nation: The name of american, which belongs to you, in your national capacity, must always exalt the just pride of Patriotism, more than any appellation derived from local discriminations. With slight shades of difference, you have the same religion, manners, habits, and political principles. You have in a common cause fought and triumphed together; the Independence and Liberty you possess are the work of joint counsels, and joint efforts, of common dangers, sufferings, and successes. Sure doesn't sound to me like diverse cultures getting along. Sorry, I am not about to listen to some "made up" sort of history. Sure, at times people of diverse culture can temporarily "get along" when attacked by what is perceived to be a common enemy, but that cooperation disappears quickly when that common enemy is vanquished, and it is business as usual, fighting amongst themselves. I am always astounded by the misconceptions the peacenicks (and other liberals) have of human nature. Edited July 24, 2005 by LarryOldtimer Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
marduk Posted July 24, 2005 #21 Share Posted July 24, 2005 Uhuh i get ya A famous man once wrote "We hold these Truths to be self-evident, that all Men are created equal, that they are endowed, by their CREATOR, with certain unalienable Rights, that among these are Life, Liberty, and the Pursuit of Happiness." while he personally owned over 250 slaves. History as they say is written by the victors It doesn't mean its moral or correct. just written Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dr. Strangehug Posted July 24, 2005 #22 Share Posted July 24, 2005 I don't see America falling anytime in the near future.............America is different from the past empires that you named....we're a democracy....not ruled by a tyrant who is present in his position for life....... Also, the world itself has changed........the change is called globalization!*lol* America is the most powerful country on earth and will continue to fill that spot for some time......Who would challenge us and what would they challenge us over?!?!? If you haven't paid attention to the thread going on right now about the Chinese War Museum....I mean Chinese Army then let me fill you in... China would lose to America in any conventional war....using nukes would be a stupid move....because WE HAVE NUKES! We have nukes that make Chinese nukes look like firecrakers!China vs. US Thread(with some talk of Britain) Britain would lose to America....Britain can't compete with America militarily.....thats just the sad truth of it.....Great allies though, so I don't see Britain ever being forced to submit itself to that kind of defeat..... Russia? Well, America has already faced off with the Russians....and lets put it this way...we're not the ones selling all our sh** to the Chinese to stay alive!*lol* Hmmmm.......who else....If anybody thinks the N. Koreans would win against America they have got to be idiots of an uncommon breed.......... I'm sure this post will ignite a flurry of replies all about how the U.S. will fall to some backwater country incapable of projecting its military force anywhere in the globe across multiple theaters, using state of the art equipment..... Before engaging in that stupid behavior please take not.....I'm a political science major specializing in Foreign Policy and Military Affairs........and I can back up all these statements with something you all lack....it's called EVIDENCE TO SUPPORT YOUR CLAIM....show me REAL evidence that the U.S. is in danger of collapsing! The idea is laughable! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
british_patriot Posted July 24, 2005 #23 Share Posted July 24, 2005 (edited) Put it this way, yes America could beat Britain on it's own land, but no way could America beat Britain on Britain...(catch my drift?) Edited July 24, 2005 by british_patriot Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dr. Strangehug Posted July 24, 2005 #24 Share Posted July 24, 2005 British_Patriot.........America could beat British soldiers IN BRITAIN! We could beat Britain into submission without even putting any troops on the ground there....we'd bombard them with our navy and planes into oblivion.......they'd be forced to surrender.....easy as that. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
british_patriot Posted July 24, 2005 #25 Share Posted July 24, 2005 (edited) oooo man, you really think you can beat us? ON OUR OWN LAND HAHAHA!!!! OMG that's cheered me up, serioulsy you army is poor, there training is a disgrace ask XSAS, yes you may have bombs, but did you stop to think we could blow them up? Also we have the best special forces in the world we will blow your ships before they get chance to hahaha Don't forget your not fighting a third world country, your fighting a very powerful one. Edited July 24, 2005 by british_patriot Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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