Jump to content




Welcome to Unexplained Mysteries! Please sign in or create an account to start posting and to access a host of extra features.


* * * - - 2 votes

Should Cigarettes Be Illegal?


  • Please log in to reply
143 replies to this topic

#91    CRYSiiSx2

CRYSiiSx2

    Astral Projection

  • Member
  • PipPipPipPipPip
  • 738 posts
  • Joined:06 Mar 2012
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:Michigan, USA

Posted 11 February 2013 - 06:26 PM

View PostRender, on 11 February 2013 - 10:46 AM, said:

Smoking rates much higher among the mentally ill



Maybe this is because mentally ill can be more self-righteous and delude themselves more easily.

ROFL you don't think the damn Insurance people make **** and have enough resources to get laws passed, so save their asses some money?  You would hate being around me, I'll keep puffing on my Marlboro in between shots of Black Velvet thank you very much.

Posted Image
NRA - PROTECT THE 2ND AMENDMENT
my twitter @sktm06

#92    Render

Render

    Psychic Spy

  • Member
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 2,080 posts
  • Joined:23 Nov 2009
  • Gender:Not Selected

Posted 11 February 2013 - 09:21 PM

Whew, okay. Apparantly smoking also causes you to get your panties all up in a bunch and become an 8 year old when confronted with the actual facts and question "what is the benefit of smoking". Temper tantrum much?
And apparantly it's impossible for some ppl to think about why they want something. Is asking yourself the question "why do i want/need to smoke" so difficult?

I was just posing some freaking questions to get some insight, sheesh. Is that why everybody is getting so upset? Because you ppl don't have any insight into your own behaviour and you act out when someone confronts you with reality?

View PostLiquid Gardens, on 11 February 2013 - 05:28 PM, said:

This is false, smoking is in some degree 'good' because it makes people feel good.  Like alcohol, rollercoaster riding, going out for a leisurely scenic drive in your car, these all make you 'feel good' too, and none are without risk.  Especially the last one, there are few common activities more dangerous than going for a drive, and I'd argue that going for just one drive is riskier than smoking just one cigarette.


Yes, i've thought about the psychological factor of "feeling good" when you smoke. But i didn't include it because as with the "stress-relief" argument it's a fallacy in itself. Because you create the worry you need to feel good about. You create the worry/stress of needing another cigarette, and having this cigarette makes you feel good. So if you remove the need for cigarette you remove the need for feeling good by the cigarette. No?
And alcohol yes, but alcohol does seem to have other benefits: Makes you more social, removes inhibitions (this can either be good or bad of course).  I don't know if cigarettes have that certain effect on ppl. Do they?
Alcohol is also a disinfectant. Alcohol can help against mosquito bites. Alcohol can help relax certain muscles for singers for example. Alcohol can really help with a tootache.
Not to mention certain benefits you get from hops in beer or the benefits from red wine we've all heard and read about. Of course this is all if you drink in moderation. But that's the point, with cigarettes there is no moderation, every cigarette is damaging and there is no healthy effect at all... Do you know of any?

Edited by Render, 11 February 2013 - 09:22 PM.


#93    Einsteinium

Einsteinium

    Psychic Spy

  • Member
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 1,296 posts
  • Joined:09 Nov 2012
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:Wisconsin USA

  • "Work out your own salvation. Do not depend on others."
    -Buddha

Posted 11 February 2013 - 11:04 PM

View PostRender, on 11 February 2013 - 09:21 PM, said:

Whew, okay. Apparantly smoking also causes you to get your panties all up in a bunch and become an 8 year old when confronted with the actual facts and question "what is the benefit of smoking". Temper tantrum much?
And apparantly it's impossible for some ppl to think about why they want something. Is asking yourself the question "why do i want/need to smoke" so difficult?

I was just posing some freaking questions to get some insight, sheesh. Is that why everybody is getting so upset? Because you ppl don't have any insight into your own behaviour and you act out when someone confronts you with reality?



Yes, i've thought about the psychological factor of "feeling good" when you smoke. But i didn't include it because as with the "stress-relief" argument it's a fallacy in itself. Because you create the worry you need to feel good about. You create the worry/stress of needing another cigarette, and having this cigarette makes you feel good. So if you remove the need for cigarette you remove the need for feeling good by the cigarette. No?
And alcohol yes, but alcohol does seem to have other benefits: Makes you more social, removes inhibitions (this can either be good or bad of course).  I don't know if cigarettes have that certain effect on ppl. Do they?
Alcohol is also a disinfectant. Alcohol can help against mosquito bites. Alcohol can help relax certain muscles for singers for example. Alcohol can really help with a tootache.
Not to mention certain benefits you get from hops in beer or the benefits from red wine we've all heard and read about. Of course this is all if you drink in moderation. But that's the point, with cigarettes there is no moderation, every cigarette is damaging and there is no healthy effect at all... Do you know of any?

Are you familiar with the concept in economics called utility? Smoking indeed makes people feel a certain amount of stress relief (although temporary) and pleasure. Some people experience this to a greater degree than others. I can think of a healthy effect, smoking keeps mosquitoes away from you. And did you know? Mosquitoes kill more people than cigarettes by transmitting diseases.

That being said you are right that cigarette smoke is bad for you in pretty much any quantity. There are many things that are bad for you in pretty much any quantity, I am quite certain that drinking any amount of drain cleaner is probably bad for you, but people do not do that. Why? Because it would make them feel like crap/sick. Cigarettes make you feel pleasure. That is why people use them, and that is in and of itself a positive effect. If there was no positive effect to be had, then nobody would smoke. This is the concept of utility in economic theory, things give you utility (take care of some want/need) but most people have limited resources to take care of all their wants/desires. So someone might not buy a new pair of shoes instead they might buy a carton of cigarettes. In economic theory they buy the cigarettes because they see it as giving them more utility at that time than the shoes. However, there is a law of diminishing marginal utility that states that each successive carton of cigarettes will have less utility than the one before it. So people tend to maximize the utility by spending money on things that give them the greatest perceived utility at that point in time.

Make cigarettes illegal and you only make criminals richer. Is that what you want? Another in demand product to be smuggled and sold on the black market, funneling more money to organized crime and opening up a new market to the Mexican drug cartels- that is what would happen. Make no mistake about it.

Edited by Einsteinium, 11 February 2013 - 11:05 PM.


#94    Render

Render

    Psychic Spy

  • Member
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 2,080 posts
  • Joined:23 Nov 2009
  • Gender:Not Selected

Posted 11 February 2013 - 11:19 PM

View PostEinsteinium, on 11 February 2013 - 11:04 PM, said:

Are you familiar with the concept in economics called utility? Smoking indeed makes people feel a certain amount of stress relief (although temporary) and pleasure. Some people experience this to a greater degree than others. I can think of a healthy effect, smoking keeps mosquitoes away from you. And did you know? Mosquitoes kill more people than cigarettes by transmitting diseases.

That being said you are right that cigarette smoke is bad for you in pretty much any quantity. There are many things that are bad for you in pretty much any quantity, I am quite certain that drinking any amount of drain cleaner is probably bad for you, but people do not do that. Why? Because it would make them feel like crap/sick. Cigarettes make you feel pleasure. That is why people use them, and that is in and of itself a positive effect. If there was no positive effect to be had, then nobody would smoke. This is the concept of utility in economic theory, things give you utility (take care of some want/need) but most people have limited resources to take care of all their wants/desires. So someone might not buy a new pair of shoes instead they might buy a carton of cigarettes. In economic theory they buy the cigarettes because they see it as giving them more utility at that time than the shoes. However, there is a law of diminishing marginal utility that states that each successive carton of cigarettes will have less utility than the one before it. So people tend to maximize the utility by spending money on things that give them the greatest perceived utility at that point in time.

Make cigarettes illegal and you only make criminals richer. Is that what you want? Another in demand product to be smuggled and sold on the black market, funneling more money to organized crime and opening up a new market to the Mexican drug cartels- that is what would happen. Make no mistake about it.

Yeah i get it, it gives you a sense of utility. But i struggle again with comparison of shoes with a cigarette. Shoes have a purpose, they help you walk and can help with your image etc..
If you buy a lottery ticket there is the chance of money.
If you drink alcohol, the previous list applies.
And so on...
What is so special about a cigarette that it deserves all this defending??
"it makes you feel good" ... so that's saying that the only thing what a cigarette gives is an addiction and a chronic temporary relief this addiction creates. In the mean time it completely destroys your own body and everybody elses who inhales the second hand smoke.
Again i fail to see why this deserves defending.

Cigarettes don't appear to be any better than a common streetdrug, and even drugs can be said to offer more benefits. Like coping with a trauma or whatever. Cigarettes offers nothing...seriously nothing. Right?
Why defend such a thing and put it in the same category as a shoe or food or freedom and personal choice.

If smokers see someone shooting up drugs, is their first response "good on him, enjoying his freedom and personal choice" .. or "well that's kinda pathetic". Im pretty sure it's the second one, you all might deny it because you're well, addicted and your judgement is obviously clouded.
Still....


#95    Iron_Lotus

Iron_Lotus

    Happy

  • Member
  • 3,157 posts
  • Joined:02 Jul 2012
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:Canada

Posted 11 February 2013 - 11:34 PM

Posted Image

edit: i get an overwhelming feeling of joy seeing people support alcohol but demonize smoking. :) funny stuff. pathetic but funny nontheless. i also find it humourous that you think people are getting their panties in a bunch over your posts.. i'll speak for myself and tell you that your posts have raised no anger or frustration from me, in fact im completely indifferent and uncaring to much of what you have posted choosing to instead skim through and shrug off the bulk of your whining.

Edited by Iron_Lotus, 11 February 2013 - 11:56 PM.

"Good lord, what is happening in there?!" ................."Aurora Borealis?"

"A...Aurora Borealis?! At this time of year?!? At this time of day!?!  In this part of the country!? Localized entirely within your kitchen!?!"

#96    Liquid Gardens

Liquid Gardens

    Psychic Spy

  • Member
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 1,826 posts
  • Joined:23 Jun 2012
  • Gender:Male

  • "Or is it just remains of vibrations from echoes long ago"

Posted 12 February 2013 - 02:29 AM

View PostRender, on 11 February 2013 - 09:21 PM, said:

I was just posing some freaking questions to get some insight, sheesh. Is that why everybody is getting so upset? Because you ppl don't have any insight into your own behaviour and you act out when someone confronts you with reality?

What Iron Lotus said on this.  Don't take disagreement as being 'upset'.

Quote

Yes, i've thought about the psychological factor of "feeling good" when you smoke. But i didn't include it because as with the "stress-relief" argument it's a fallacy in itself. Because you create the worry you need to feel good about. You create the worry/stress of needing another cigarette, and having this cigarette makes you feel good. So if you remove the need for cigarette you remove the need for feeling good by the cigarette. No?

No.  That is too simplistic.  I don't smoke cigarettes, do you?  Do you know personally what it's like?  I've read about nicotine of course and talked to smokers, and I know what you are talking about, you are referring to the fact that some of the pleasure addicted smokers feel is the relief from the displeasure of the addictive cravings themselves.  That sounds logical.  What isn't though is to assume that 1) that is the only pleasure they are deriving from it and 2) all smokers are alike and thoroughly addicted.  People smoke because it gives them a buzz.  I've heard it's relaxing but it's also a stimulant, but I haven't smoked tobacco enough to fully feel or ascertain the buzz.  Regardless, I'd never presume how much of the pleasure they get from it is merely a relief from the addiction, I'm not them.

Quote

And alcohol yes, but alcohol does seem to have other benefits: Makes you more social, removes inhibitions (this can either be good or bad of course).  I don't know if cigarettes have that certain effect on ppl. Do they?
Alcohol is also a disinfectant. Alcohol can help against mosquito bites. Alcohol can help relax certain muscles for singers for example. Alcohol can really help with a tootache.
Not to mention certain benefits you get from hops in beer or the benefits from red wine we've all heard and read about. Of course this is all if you drink in moderation. But that's the point, with cigarettes there is no moderation, every cigarette is damaging and there is no healthy effect at all... Do you know of any?

Okay, interesting enough, since you're going to cast the net far afield and include alcohol's use as a disinfectant.  A quick search turns up:

- smoking reduces the risk of knee replacement surgery
- smoking lowers the risk of Parkinson's
- smoking lowers the risk of obesity
- smoking can reduce the risk in women of uterine fibroids

"You can't reason someone out of a position they didn't reason themselves into"
"That which can be asserted without evidence, can be dismissed without evidence" - C. Hitchens
"The first principle is that you must not fool yourself - and you are the easiest person to fool" - Richard Feynman

#97    CrimsonKing

CrimsonKing

    Common Sense Aficionado

  • Member
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 2,058 posts
  • Joined:18 Jan 2013
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:DarkSide of TheMoon

  • "It does not require a majority to prevail,but rather an irate,tireless minority keen to set brushfires in peoples minds" Sam Adams

Posted 12 February 2013 - 04:02 AM

View PostRender, on 11 February 2013 - 09:21 PM, said:

Whew, okay. Apparantly smoking also causes you to get your panties all up in a bunch and become an 8 year old when confronted with the actual facts and question "what is the benefit of smoking". Temper tantrum much?
And apparantly it's impossible for some ppl to think about why they want something. Is asking yourself the question "why do i want/need to smoke" so difficult?

I was just posing some freaking questions to get some insight, sheesh. Is that why everybody is getting so upset? Because you ppl don't have any insight into your own behaviour and you act out when someone confronts you with reality?



Yes, i've thought about the psychological factor of "feeling good" when you smoke. But i didn't include it because as with the "stress-relief" argument it's a fallacy in itself. Because you create the worry you need to feel good about. You create the worry/stress of needing another cigarette, and having this cigarette makes you feel good. So if you remove the need for cigarette you remove the need for feeling good by the cigarette. No?
And alcohol yes, but alcohol does seem to have other benefits: Makes you more social, removes inhibitions (this can either be good or bad of course).  I don't know if cigarettes have that certain effect on ppl. Do they?
Alcohol is also a disinfectant. Alcohol can help against mosquito bites. Alcohol can help relax certain muscles for singers for example. Alcohol can really help with a tootache.
Not to mention certain benefits you get from hops in beer or the benefits from red wine we've all heard and read about. Of course this is all if you drink in moderation. But that's the point, with cigarettes there is no moderation, every cigarette is damaging and there is no healthy effect at all... Do you know of any?

Nope no tantrum at all,only smoke when i drink.I'm a adult,i pay for my insurance i should be able to do anything reasonable that doesnt hurt others whenever i so choose.

"If it is not advantageous,do not move.If objectives can not be attained,do not employ the army.Unless endangered do not engage in warfare.The ruler cannot mobilize the army out of personal anger.The general can not engage in battle because of personal frustration.When it is advantageous,move;when not advantageous,stop.Anger can revert to happiness,annoyance can revert to joy,but a vanquished state cannot be revived,the dead cannot be brought back to life." Sun-Tzu

#98    CrimsonKing

CrimsonKing

    Common Sense Aficionado

  • Member
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 2,058 posts
  • Joined:18 Jan 2013
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:DarkSide of TheMoon

  • "It does not require a majority to prevail,but rather an irate,tireless minority keen to set brushfires in peoples minds" Sam Adams

Posted 12 February 2013 - 04:08 AM

View PostIron_Lotus, on 11 February 2013 - 11:34 PM, said:

Posted Image

edit: i get an overwhelming feeling of joy seeing people support alcohol but demonize smoking. :) funny stuff. pathetic but funny nontheless. i also find it humourous that you think people are getting their panties in a bunch over your posts.. i'll speak for myself and tell you that your posts have raised no anger or frustration from me, in fact im completely indifferent and uncaring to much of what you have posted choosing to instead skim through and shrug off the bulk of your whining.

Had to like this,lebron playing the world's smallest violin lmao

"If it is not advantageous,do not move.If objectives can not be attained,do not employ the army.Unless endangered do not engage in warfare.The ruler cannot mobilize the army out of personal anger.The general can not engage in battle because of personal frustration.When it is advantageous,move;when not advantageous,stop.Anger can revert to happiness,annoyance can revert to joy,but a vanquished state cannot be revived,the dead cannot be brought back to life." Sun-Tzu

#99    DieChecker

DieChecker

    I'm a Rogue Scholar

  • Member
  • 20,215 posts
  • Joined:21 Nov 2005
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:Portland, Oregon, USA

  • Hey, I'm not wrong. I'm just not completely right.

Posted 12 February 2013 - 07:01 AM

A proposed law in Oregon? First I've heard of it.

It will never get anywhere. The Liberal Urban Poor, who control the Oregon government through their shear voting mass love to smoke and so I predict that this law will never get anywhere.

Smoking is bad for you, but so are a lot of things... legal things. Maybe what is needed is more powerful cigs. So those that smoke kill themselves faster?

Here at Intel we make processors on 12 inch wafers. And, the individual processors on the wafers are called die. And, I am employed to check these die. That is why I am the DieChecker.

At times one remains faithful to a cause only because its opponents do not cease to be insipid. - Friedrich Nietzsche

Qualifications? This is cryptozoology, dammit! All that is required is the spirit of adventure. - Night Walker

#100    psyche101

psyche101

    Conspiracy Realist

  • Member
  • 33,588 posts
  • Joined:30 Nov 2005
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:Oz

  • If you stop to think, Remember to start again

Posted 12 February 2013 - 09:58 AM

I remember them proposing something very similar, very recently here down under, in Tasmania. It was for anyone born after the year 2000. They are still trying to get it up and running for 2018. Dam foolish suggestion.

LINK

Things are what they are. - Me Reality can't be debunked. That's the beauty of it. - Capeo If I have seen further it is by standing on the shoulders of giants. - Sir Isaac Newton Let me repeat the lesson learned from the Sturrock scientific review panel: Pack up your old data and forget it. Ufology needs new data, new cases, new rigorous and scientific methodologies if it hopes ever to get out of its pit. - Ed Stewart Youtube is the last refuge of the ignorant and is more often used for disinformation than genuine research.  There is a REASON for PEER REVIEW... - Chrlzs Nothing is inexplicable, just unexplained. - Dr Who

#101    Frank Merton

Frank Merton

    Blue fish

  • Member
  • 14,758 posts
  • Joined:22 Jan 2013
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:Ho Chi Minh City, Vietnam

  • fmerton.blogspot.com

Posted 12 February 2013 - 10:10 AM

Both alcohol and tobacco have minor benefits that can be gotten other ways and huge harms, so they should both be simply unavailable except maybe under prescription.  As a practical matter the way things are this would not work -- you would only give organized crime more things to make money from.

There are things that could be done but won't be done because of the political power of the alcohol and tobacco industries.  The first would be to nationalize them, taking away the profit motive in their use.  The second would be to de-brand them, removing status and glamor and all that junk from their use.  The third would be to price them as high as possible, keeping close tabs on the appearance of black markets (which would be used as the indicator that prices are too high).

Other efforts -- school education, anti-smoking programs originating in the medical profession, public interest messages, and research to find ways to help people break addictions, are all also needed.

Considering the toll in suffering and death these products cause, that society takes such a relaxed attitude is an abomination.


#102    Einsteinium

Einsteinium

    Psychic Spy

  • Member
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 1,296 posts
  • Joined:09 Nov 2012
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:Wisconsin USA

  • "Work out your own salvation. Do not depend on others."
    -Buddha

Posted 12 February 2013 - 03:56 PM

View PostFrank Merton, on 12 February 2013 - 10:10 AM, said:

Both alcohol and tobacco have minor benefits that can be gotten other ways and huge harms, so they should both be simply unavailable except maybe under prescription.  As a practical matter the way things are this would not work -- you would only give organized crime more things to make money from.

There are things that could be done but won't be done because of the political power of the alcohol and tobacco industries.  The first would be to nationalize them, taking away the profit motive in their use.  The second would be to de-brand them, removing status and glamor and all that junk from their use.  The third would be to price them as high as possible, keeping close tabs on the appearance of black markets (which would be used as the indicator that prices are too high).

Other efforts -- school education, anti-smoking programs originating in the medical profession, public interest messages, and research to find ways to help people break addictions, are all also needed.

Considering the toll in suffering and death these products cause, that society takes such a relaxed attitude is an abomination.

I agree with you that considering the toll in suffering and death that these products cause, the relaxed attitude society takes on them is an abomination. I just do not think that government can legislate and solve societal problems. Societal issues like this can only be tackled at the grassroots individual level. What government should do is educate educate educate, not scare, just educate and teach everyone the truth about these products. As soon as they start using scare tactics they lose credibility. Educate people on the simple truth of what these things do to the body and mind, and let the people chose for themselves. Nobody is forcing you to smoke or drink (I would hope) and I think laws to protect those who do not smoke from second hand smoke in public places is good, but people need to feel empowered to make their own decisions. As soon as government steps in and acts like a parent telling us what not to do and punishing us if we don't listen it takes away that empowerment and makes it a chore. If one moral philosophy is better than another, educate the people and they will take the higher path in great numbers on their own accord, and feel empowered for doing so. I have never heard a good argument for banning substances like this, banning is just a feel good measure that those who's moral philosophy is one of fear and prejudice take.


#103    Frank Merton

Frank Merton

    Blue fish

  • Member
  • 14,758 posts
  • Joined:22 Jan 2013
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:Ho Chi Minh City, Vietnam

  • fmerton.blogspot.com

Posted 12 February 2013 - 03:59 PM

I never proposed banning; please re-read what I posted and respond accordingly.


#104    Esoteric Toad

Esoteric Toad

    Astral Projection

  • Member
  • PipPipPipPipPip
  • 691 posts
  • Joined:04 Jul 2007
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:Florida

  • Where does one get certified as an "Ancient Astronaut Theorist" or "Cryptozoologist"?

Posted 12 February 2013 - 05:08 PM

If you are going to ban smoking you also need to ban cars, buses, airplanes, lawn mowers and everything that burns any sort of fuel. Between America, China and India I would think the emissions from those items do more damage to more people than all the smokers in the world. The law enforcement aspect alone is ludicrous. The black market has happened to some extent here in Florida due to a huge tax increase. Nice to know the cops can stop that but unfortunate for anyone killed while trying to steal, sell or buy illegal cigarettes. Then again the people who do not smoke will not mind paying more in taxes for the lack collected from the evil smokers too. All the while you can get drunk off your a55 and drive down the road and kill someone. Sure it is illegal but what difference does that make to the folks you just killed? I have never heard of an epidemic of smoking and driving killing people, no more than eating and driving or doing makeup and driving. JMO.

Just wanted to add, I have no hatred for drinkers or smokers. Already there are enough laws as to where you can and cannot smoke and I agree with them.

Edited by Esoteric Toad, 12 February 2013 - 05:10 PM.


#105    Liquid Gardens

Liquid Gardens

    Psychic Spy

  • Member
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 1,826 posts
  • Joined:23 Jun 2012
  • Gender:Male

  • "Or is it just remains of vibrations from echoes long ago"

Posted 12 February 2013 - 05:12 PM

View PostFrank Merton, on 12 February 2013 - 10:10 AM, said:

Considering the toll in suffering and death these products cause, that society takes such a relaxed attitude is an abomination.

I think 'abomination' is just a tad overwrought here; I don't see any relaxed attitude towards either tobacco or alcohol at least in the US, short of Prohibition I don't think it's ever been any less relaxed.  Just in my lifetime the attention on and legal penalties for drunk driving have increased manyfold, let alone the obvious restrictions on smoking and the ever-increasing prohibitions on where smokers may smoke.

One of the main objections I have to your analysis is that you don't seem to be acknowledging how much pleasure these products cause.  I seriously doubt that you would be receptive to someone coming in and analyzing your life and the things that you inevitably engage in that are harmful and can cause suffering and death, and that you would then agree with them that you should not be engaging in them.  Do you curtail your driving to only the absolute essentials, I'm sure you realize how dangerous driving is?  Any analysis of what risks are necessary and acceptable is of course going to be subjective, but I'm not sure why you wouldn't allow smokers and those who like to drink the same leeway to determine their own acceptable risks.  Especially smoking, which typically only harms the person who smokes.

"You can't reason someone out of a position they didn't reason themselves into"
"That which can be asserted without evidence, can be dismissed without evidence" - C. Hitchens
"The first principle is that you must not fool yourself - and you are the easiest person to fool" - Richard Feynman




0 user(s) are reading this topic

0 members, 0 guests, 0 anonymous users