191 replies to this topic

[Frank Merton]

OK, I don't have a degree in economics.  I have to say that I don't get your assertion that capitalism is "natural" human utilitarian behavior.  First, although you are not explicit about this, I take it when you mean "capitalistic structures" you mean markets.  Markets of course do seeming automatically appear a lot, but there are many ways people try to get what they want, and markets are just one.  Far more common in human history is probably various forms of thievery and extortion, of which, of course. markets are not entirely lacking.  Seizure via conquest in war has always also been popular, and various forms of slavery.

[Seeker79]

Frank Merton, on 23 February 2013 - 02:50 PM, said:

OK, I don't have a degree in economics.  I have to say that I don't get your assertion that capitalism is "natural" human utilitarian behavior.  First, although you are not explicit about this, I take it when you mean "capitalistic structures" you mean markets.  Markets of course do seeming automatically appear a lot, but there are many ways people try to get what they want, and markets are just one.  Far more common in human history is probably various forms of thievery and extortion, of which, of course. markets are not entirely lacking.  Seizure via conquest in war has always also been popular, and various forms of slavery.

Sorry I should have said self interested behavior or capitalizing behavior. Capitalism is a system to take advantage of natural behaviors and regulate it. Obviously property rights, regulation of externalities, monopolies, and attempts to hinder competition are important tenants to capitalism. Often when people bash capitalism, what they really end up bashing is what true theory actually forbids.

Edited by Seeker79, 23 February 2013 - 03:03 PM.

[Fstop]

I was having a conversation with my daughter (10) the other day. She'd asked me if I'd rather live in modern times or pioneer times.   She said that she'd rather live in pioneer times because things were simpler then and people weren't as concered about things like what clothes were cool and drama between friends.  She's a smart kid.

I told her that there are things about modern times that are beneficial and things about pioneer times that are beneficial.  I think that our modern world has made life very easy for a lot of us - sort of like the EASY button on those office supply store commercials.

Back in the day we had to figure out how to survive, how to solve problems, how to use our time efficiently to accomplish the things we needed to to just to eke out our existence everyday.  I think our brains and bodies were fitter as a result.  We only had time to worry about the important stuff and because of that life, though more perilous and uncertain may have been simpler and better.

Now EVERYTHING can be done for us by computers and machines.  I participate daily in modern convenience, much to my chagrin at times.  They can 3-D print stuff for goodness sakes!  I think the by-product of all this is that our minds are less engaged with the process of actually living. So we fill our time with videogames, TV, the internet.....superflous endeavors that entertain our brains for us...a passive process of stimulation.  I see this at school with the kids i teach all the time.  If it isn't fun and entertaining, good luck trying to get them to engage AT ALL.  Schools are in the business of edutainment these days. Its a vicious cycle because the more you have to entertain, the less time you have to actually deliver content and knowledge.

The net effect is that everyone is getting dumber.  At least thats the way I see it.

[WoIverine]

CrimsonKing, on 23 February 2013 - 10:19 AM, said:

I believe one of the biggest numbing and dumbing tools ever created to bedevil mankind has been reality tv.

They do call it the idiot box. After I moved out on my own, I never got cable...haven't regretted it ever since. $55 per month, they can keep it!

Edited by WoIverine, 23 February 2013 - 03:18 PM.

[Fstop]

I haven't had cable, satellite...nuthin for almost 3 years.  I get a little TV at my part time job - and I don't see anything I'm missing.

[Frank Merton]

I live in an officially "socialist" society that has decided for the time being that markets are necessary and that the good thing about socialism is that regulation of markets is readily accomplished without having to employ legions of lawyers.  In the end, though, a more pure socialism -- or something that doesn't even include the concept of ownership -- will prevail, but human technology is not yet to the point where this can happen, so that the forces that drive markets (greed is the ugly word, desire to get ahead is more pleasant-sounding) must be employed to get people to produce (that is, work).

[Seeker79]

Frank Merton, on 23 February 2013 - 03:37 PM, said:

I live in an officially "socialist" society that has decided for the time being that markets are necessary and that the good thing about socialism is that regulation of markets is readily accomplished without having to employ legions of lawyers.  In the end, though, a more pure socialism -- or something that doesn't even include the concept of ownership -- will prevail, but human technology is not yet to the point where this can happen, so that the forces that drive markets (greed is the ugly word, desire to get ahead is more pleasant-sounding) must be employed to get people to produce (that is, work).

Don't kid your self. The USA is pretty much a socialist country also, we just can't admit it. While spiritually and ethically I think socialism is a wonderful idea, we must pay attention to evidence, Maths, and history. An economic system must not be an ideology/religion  based on fuzzy feel good beliefs with no support from actual intelligent research peer review and evidence.

Don't get me wrong, I would love to vist where you live, haveing a passion for pure markets, in places like that they actually exist. Here every tiny thing is regulated and it's getting worse. I have to go to the flee markets to find it.

But let's look at the talley ( for good or Ill). Capitalism...... iPhone's, computers, Internet, just in time inventory, the auto mobile, life saveing technologies, international travel, etc etc etc.

Socialism.... ????? A lot of corruption thats for sure, that's why I am discussted that my country is headed that way. And believe me I'm the most green spiritually connected to the earth and philanthropically minded person you might ever meet. I detest externalities from corporations both on ethical and scientific economic grounds.

Edited by Seeker79, 23 February 2013 - 09:06 PM.

[Professor T]

Socialism is only frowned upon because TPTB want it that way imo.. They feed disinformation regarding how societies should be run/managed because it feeds their own agenda to stay in power..

[Seeker79]

Professor T, on 23 February 2013 - 09:30 PM, said:

Socialism is only frowned upon because TPTB want it that way imo.. They feed disinformation regarding how societies should be run/managed because it feeds their own agenda to stay in power..

Ok... People say things like that, but really what have socialist or communist  countries produced that benefit the world and improve the standard of living for its people? Who are these powerful people so desperately trying to stay in power... Can anyone name one?

Socialism is frowned upon because of math. Plain and simple. It's not that hard to see what a subsidy does to a supply and demand curve. But id bet most people have bever seen it. Ironically when you look at countries that are "socialist" as compared to the united states that might have a higher standard of living, you will find that they are more capitalistic than the US when it comes to actual laws. Other socioeconomic factors aside.

Does anyone here that is against "capitalism" have a computer or a 401k? Better think hard about that one in the humanity getting dumber thread.

Edited by Seeker79, 23 February 2013 - 09:53 PM.

[Professor T]

Seeker79, on 23 February 2013 - 09:46 PM, said:

Ok... People say things like that, but really what have socialist or communist  countries produced that benefit the world and improve the standard of living for its people? Who are these powerful people so desperately trying to stay in power... Can anyone name one?

seriously.. Do you honestly believe that nothing benefitial came from communist countries..
Communisim is benefitial in many cases.. Nature is a dictatorship... Honestly I thought you would have known that..

Seeker79, on 23 February 2013 - 09:46 PM, said:

Socialism is frowned upon because of math. Plain and simple. It's not that hard to see what a subsidy does to a supply and demand curve. But id bet most people have bever seen it. Ironically when you look at countries that are "socialist" as compared to the united states that might have a higher standard of living, you will find that they are more capitalistic than the US when it comes to actual laws. Other socioeconomic factors aside.

Not sure I understand this. Then again, I'm no economist.. But to say that Socialism is frowned upon because of math seems to me a rather bold statement based on a single perspective that accounting and money is more important than people..

Seeker79, on 23 February 2013 - 09:46 PM, said:

Does anyone here that is against "capitalism" have a computer or a 401k? Better think hard about that one in the humanity getting dumber thread.

Yup.. that would be me.. except for the 401k thing..  

But before this goes any further, let's try to keep this in-line with the OP, or take it to PM..
This thread is about reasons why Humanity is losing intelligence, not about political or social ideaologies which in its self is a propaganda minefield that we are all in some part involved with because we've been roped in to such lines of thought.

[Mr Right Wing]

Professor T, on 21 February 2013 - 02:27 AM, said:

Every time I have to fight some gawmless cross-eye'd subway caterer who has to be told three times what I want to go on my foot-long I wonder if humanity is getting dumber..

I'm educated yet I shall share an instance where I embaressed myself just for your amusement.

As a teenager I went into my local computer shop and asked for some disks. The counter assistant said sure, would you like them with green stickers or green stickers? Now normally that wouldnt slip past me but it did on that occasion. I stood there deep in thought for a few seconds as I decided if I wanted green or green ones. Then I picked and the counter assistant just had that look on the face that said I'm the dumest fool they've ever met lol.

Oh well I suppose thats what drinking flouridated water does to you!

[Detective Mystery 2013]

Jacques Terreur, on 23 February 2013 - 06:12 AM, said:

hahaha, now i got it....yeah, well, i sometimes shudder when i hear kids speak, sitting next to me in the tram or so. For me it is hard to tell though if written and spoken language goes down the drain due to increasing stupidity or if it really is just a generation thing going on there.....
I'm from germany, see, and when i was 14 or 15, the word "geil" came up to usage amongst us kids, translating to "cool" or "def" in english. For my parents and ESPECIALLY my Grandma, that was very offensive to hear, because "normally", the word "geil" means "horny" or "lewd". So when i hear kids in that age speak,i bite my tongue and judge them when they are in their 20s....

I'll list some examples. Keep in mind that these kids speak English as a first language. I apologize in advance to British members, but the worst ones seem to be boys and girls from the UK. On the other hand, older British people often sound brilliant.

than for then
man/woman for men/women
your for you're
to for too

I'm referring to consistent instances of borderline illiteracy. I often make careless and stupid mistakes, but their errors are constant. There's a pattern to it. They mess up common sayings too.

[Seeker79]

Professor T, on 23 February 2013 - 10:51 PM, said:

seriously.. Do you honestly believe that nothing benefitial came from communist countries..
Communisim is benefitial in many cases.. Nature is a dictatorship... Honestly I thought you would have known that..

Not sure I understand this. Then again, I'm no economist.. But to say that Socialism is frowned upon because of math seems to me a rather bold statement based on a single perspective that accounting and money is more important than people..

Yup.. that would be me.. except for the 401k thing..  

But before this goes any further, let's try to keep this in-line with the OP, or take it to PM..
This thread is about reasons why Humanity is losing intelligence, not about political or social ideaologies which in its self is a propaganda minefield that we are all in some part involved with because we've been roped in to such lines of thought.

"nature is a dictatorship" You are a wise professor, look back on my conversation with frank. You will see that my views are based on exactly that Plus about five years of college and I'll admit possibly some indoctrination .

I'm not saying a person from  a communist nation never invented any thing, I'm saying it's the capitalist that brought it to fruit. ( for good or I'll). Capitalists have a tendency to import good ideas then export the marketable format.

"accounting and money" has absolutely nothing to do with it. Utility, however does. Those of us with compassionate minds ( like yours)  want the greatest good for the greatest amount of people. the entire "maths" behind economics are not about accounting or money, they are about the greatest amount of utility contributed to society through the actions of individuals. Again look back at my comments about finance and those "economists" that study money. No matter what you do you cannot escape the power that agragate individual choices have on Everybody from the poor to the rich. "nature is --indeed--a dictator", and in every post in every thread you have ever seen me post in I advocate working within the rythems of nature. You cannot escape it no matter how "high" minded you are.

In a large part I think the whole dumming of people ties into all of this. People do not think critically anymore. Mabey they never did.., I don't know. They don't see for themselves and explore their views to the fullest and their actual holistic consequences. There is a cloud over humanity. Tha anima and the ego ultimtely owns us even when we think we are stepping away from it.

[Professor T]

Whew.. Glad that made sense..  
Especially the last two sentences.. Between you and Mr Walker I've learned a lot today.. Thanks..



In keeping with the thread though, something that is important to keep in mind is that indoctrination though so-called higher education, university, doctorates, ect.. keeps individuals boxed in to one perspective, or a toe-the-line style of thinking & behavior that effectively limits what people can understand about anything and in many cases everything.. AKA "Dumbing down" though fixed perspectives..  
I've seen this first hand with working with actual rocket scientists, who socially and mentally were incapable of operating simple machinery or understanding new tasks given them.. It was actually quite hillarious..

[Seeker79]

Professor T, on 24 February 2013 - 04:32 AM, said:

Whew.. Glad that made sense..  
Especially the last two sentences.. Between you and Mr Walker I've learned a lot today.. Thanks..



In keeping with the thread though, something that is important to keep in mind is that indoctrination though so-called higher education, university, doctorates, ect.. keeps individuals boxed in to one perspective, or a toe-the-line style of thinking & behavior that effectively limits what people can understand about anything and in many cases everything.. AKA "Dumbing down" though fixed perspectives..  
I've seen this first hand with working with actual rocket scientists, who socially and mentally were incapable of operating simple machinery or understanding new tasks given them.. It was actually quite hillarious..

That is funny. I have seen that aswell. My wife works for one of the largest technology companies in the world managing the flow of chipsets, and yet plugging in a Wii or cable she is completely and totally incompetent.  She wouldn't know the difference between the Ethernet plug or the coaxle, yet she can have a conversation with china about their demand for mobile microchips.

Trust me... I have parted ways with my professors ideaologies a long time ago... It is so very obviouse that modern polocy is not addressing economic theory properly especially with externalities and anti competitive practices. I understand the socialist concept. At heart I am one aswell.., native Americans shared every catch and every meal with everyone else. In fact your status was often associated with how well you provided for others and sacrificed your own meals, but unfortunately modern reality often trumps heart and we have an entire world to look after instead of a tribe. The same rules do not apply anymore. We have to be diligent in persuit of actualities and not nominal opinions.

I would gladly change the mode of the world if I could, but I can only effect the Infividual on an individual basis... Ultimately that's how we will indeed save ourselves, but in the meantime we have to work with what we have.

Edited by Seeker79, 24 February 2013 - 05:01 AM.