StarMountainKid Posted July 4, 2011 #1 Share Posted July 4, 2011 Why is the universe so complex in its structure? Look how intricately it is constructed as described by the two theories of relativity, quantum mechanics and string/M-theory. Then there's dark matter and dark energy, virtual energy, the multitude of elementary particles and the complex laws that govern their behavior, what spacetime may be like at the sub-Planck scale, singularities, etc., etc., on and on. It seems all so complicated and elaborately designed and over-engineered. Couldn't a simpler design have worked just as well? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Leonardo Posted July 4, 2011 #2 Share Posted July 4, 2011 What makes you think the universe is complex? Our system of labelling things is not the universe. Nor should the fact that we use a system for labelling things, be mistaken for believing there is some 'design' in the universe. That belief is an artifact of our system, not the universe. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
StarMountainKid Posted July 4, 2011 Author #3 Share Posted July 4, 2011 Our system of labelling things is not the universe. Yes, but does not the universe behave in the ways we label it? Nor should the fact that we use a system for labelling things, be mistaken for believing there is some 'design' in the universe. That belief is an artifact of our system, not the universe. I didn't mean by my use of the word 'design' that the universe was necessarily designed by anything, I meant by 'design' the mechanics of its structure. How about: if the universe came into being spontaneously, why is it that this particular mechanism requires such a complex labeling system to describe it? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Leonardo Posted July 4, 2011 #4 Share Posted July 4, 2011 (edited) I didn't mean by my use of the word 'design' that the universe was necessarily designed by anything, I meant by 'design' the mechanics of its structure. How about: if the universe came into being spontaneously, why is it that this particular mechanism requires such a complex labeling system to describe it? Because there are some picky people for whom "The universe is made of stuff." simply wasn't good enough. Yes, but does not the universe behave in the ways we label it? On a (slightly) more serious note, we label the universe as we do due to how we are able to observe the universe. The universe does not behave in the ways we label it, we label it according to how we observe it behaving. While there might not appear to be a great distinction between those two statements, there actually is a very fundamental difference. It is this "labelling acording to how we observe it behaving" that gives this perception of complexity. Bear in mind that 'complexity' is an abstract concept - a linguistic construct of our own ability to process what we perceive - and it becomes obvious that the universe is neither 'complex' nor 'simple', it just is. It is only our capacity for labelling (and language) that grants this 'complexity'. Edited July 4, 2011 by Leonardo Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
StarMountainKid Posted July 4, 2011 Author #5 Share Posted July 4, 2011 I understand what you're saying and I agree with you, Leonardo, in that this is the way we are able to observe the universe. However, The universe does not behave in the ways we label it, we label it according to how we observe it behaving. if the universe does not behave in the ways we label it, what are our labels describing? Are our labels describing only our labeling system? If quantum mechanics, for example, is not describing anything that actually exists, why do we find quantum mechanics a useful tool in predicting actual events at that scale of the universe? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mentalcase Posted July 4, 2011 #6 Share Posted July 4, 2011 I think it's just as likely that this could all be a simulation. The detail of nature without the notion of life, is beyond perception. Then when you realize you are the universe questioning it's self, it gets even more complex and philosophical. Once again, our emotions and observations are tainted by just being alive and sentient. Our universe could be just a fluke. Some physicists believe that big bangs are a regular occurrence and the fundamental laws change based on some laws set in motion before the event. The "petri dish" could have characteristics that effect the outcome of a big bang. The laws we observe appear to be so perfect to us. "The only way we could exist. Even if a small detail of a law was changed, life may not be what we know it as." I think the possibilities are infinite and to conclude anything is premature.. We will most likely never find the true meaning of the universe. We can only speculate with our "discoveries" and descriptions. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
0011235813 Posted July 7, 2011 #7 Share Posted July 7, 2011 Why is the universe so complex? because it's infinite. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
StarMountainKid Posted July 7, 2011 Author #8 Share Posted July 7, 2011 Why is the universe so complex?because it's infinite. I think if the universe had a beginning in time (the Big Bang), then it seems to me not enough time has elapsed from that instant for the universe to have become infinite on the largest scale. Wouldn't that require an infinite amount of time to have elapsed since the BB? It may be infinite on the smallest scale, like pealing an infinite onion. However, this infinity must have been created at the moment of the BB, as well. I'm not sure such an infinity can be created at some instant in time. I would think there would exist some fundamental level in scale at which the components of the universe could no longer be reduced. Just my opinion. An infinite complexity to the universe doesn't seem very efficient. If there is a fundamental level, what is that 'made of', what is its essence? A fundamental, non-divisible element of unity would be exclusively itself and thus be undefinable, having no reference to compare it to. It would just be, and would have to be accepted as such. The end of elementary particle physics. Just some thoughts. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ozner Posted July 7, 2011 #9 Share Posted July 7, 2011 I would think there would exist some fundamental level in scale at which the components of the universe could no longer be reduced. Just my opinion. An infinite complexity to the universe doesn't seem very efficient. If there is a fundamental level, what is that 'made of', what is its essence? A fundamental, non-divisible element of unity would be exclusively itself and thus be undefinable, having no reference to compare it to. It would just be, and would have to be accepted as such. The end of elementary particle physics. I think instead of particles the universe may be a projection of information, similar to how a TV or computer projects an "image" of something. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
StarMountainKid Posted July 8, 2011 Author #10 Share Posted July 8, 2011 I think instead of particles the universe may be a projection of information, similar to how a TV or computer projects an "image" of something. That theory is interesting, too. The Holographic Universe? Regular elementary particles and fields are bits of information anyway, aren't they? The quarks and leptons would be like the pixels forming the image. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
0011235813 Posted July 8, 2011 #11 Share Posted July 8, 2011 I think instead of particles the universe may be a projection of information, similar to how a TV or computer projects an "image" of something. That theory is interesting, too. The Holographic Universe? Regular elementary particles and fields are bits of information anyway, aren't they? The quarks and leptons would be like the pixels forming the image. Why does astro-physics always have to be so creepy? Imagine that, that we are no more than an image made from information particles (shudders melodramatically) Anyway, It's more than just the fact that the multi-verse might be infinite that makes it so complicated, We are a complicated species, and we seem to know more than we can understand, I guess If I lived for two hundred years or more it wouldn't seem so complicated.... LOL Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
StarMountainKid Posted July 8, 2011 Author #12 Share Posted July 8, 2011 Why does astro-physics always have to be so creepy? Imagine that, that we are no more than an imagemade from information particles (shudders melodramatically) I agree, it all is creepy. What's even more creepy to me is our biological selves. Icky! We're gooey, biological slime-balls that can think. On the quantum level we are made up of information particles that don't think at all. They're just dead bits of something that when organized in the right way produce us, something alive. It's weird. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
encouraged Posted July 10, 2011 #13 Share Posted July 10, 2011 (edited) And why does it have to be so blasted big... huge... humongous? Maybe there is life out there that can get around quickly enough to really enjoy all that. It sure isn't us! Since we seem to be smack in the middle of the scale of the vast universe and the infinitesimal cellular bits, it makes you wonder if that means whatever we look for be it large or small, we are going to find. When will we no longer discover that the smallest particle we know of is really made up of yet smaller particles? And the farther away we peer the further away things really are. I don't really believe this, but the complexity issue makes believing in achieving Pan an attractive alternative. I came up with another way of defining the universe that I feel is more accurate. It is probably too simple. Here is my take on an attempt to get rid of the infinitely multiple universe theory to simplify things: ============ Forty five years thinking about it... answering that one question, "What is beyond the Universe?" I finally realize the question has a problem! ________ HISTORY We discovered space and the matter in space at the same time. So, we think of it collectively, and call all of that stuff the Universe. _______ PERHAPS How about we think of the dark void as "space" and give space the attributes of: . exists . is everywhere . is boundless thereby, having no shape. One could also describe space as the absence of everything else, or call it "nothing"; the same stuff as found between the particles How about we think of everything else as "matter, energy and time" and give them the normal attributes we bestow on matter, energy and time. Now we have two constituents that compose what we have called, in the past, the "Universe". And we are ascribing different attributes to those two constituents, primarily the difference being that space is boundless; and matter, energy, and time are indeed bound. This new space existed as the nothing it is, prior to the Big Bang. The other constituent resulted from the Big Bang and has been expanding into the already existing space all this time. So, thinking of both constituents, (1: the black void and 2: everything else), collectively as the Universe, to me, should not be done. What is there beyond the expanse of expanding matter, expanding energy and expanding time?" That is simple! "Beyond that is the continuation of the pre-existent Nothing, space, that boundless black void! --johne Edited July 10, 2011 by encouraged Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
theQ54 Posted July 10, 2011 #14 Share Posted July 10, 2011 Why is the universe so complex in its structure? Look how intricately it is constructed as described by the two theories of relativity, quantum mechanics and string/M-theory. Then there's dark matter and dark energy, virtual energy, the multitude of elementary particles and the complex laws that govern their behavior, what spacetime may be like at the sub-Planck scale, singularities, etc., etc., on and on. It seems all so complicated and elaborately designed and over-engineered. Couldn't a simpler design have worked just as well? This sort of universe is so structured as to say that anything you could possibly think of could be a reality. It's the only sort of universe that i want to exist in. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
StarMountainKid Posted July 10, 2011 Author #15 Share Posted July 10, 2011 I came up with another way of defining the universe that I feel is more accurate. If the space you are describing is different from four dimensional Minkowski spacetime, how do you explain the properties of spacetime as described by Einstein's general theory of relativity? One could also describe space as the absence of everything else, or call it "nothing"; the same stuff as found between the particles. Is the space between the elementary particles 'nothing'? How do you explain the existence of virtual particles due to quantum uncertainty, or the propagation of electromagnetic radiation which fills all space if there is nothing between the elementary particles? How about we think of everything else as "matter, energy and time" and give them the normal attributes we bestow on matter, energy and time. What is the inter-relationship between matter, energy and time that you can group them together? How does the dimension of time relate to matter and energy? What is there beyond the expanse of expanding matter, expanding energy and expanding time?" That is simple! "Beyond that is the continuation of the pre-existent Nothing, space, that boundless black void! If this boundless black void is 'nothing', how can it even be defined as 'nothing' and given attributes? If it is nothing, then there's nothing there! Enjoying your post. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
0011235813 Posted July 10, 2011 #16 Share Posted July 10, 2011 If the space you are describing is different from four dimensional Minkowski spacetime, how do you explain the properties of spacetime as described by Einstein's general theory of relativity? Is the space between the elementary particles 'nothing'? How do you explain the existence of virtual particles due to quantum uncertainty, or the propagation of electromagnetic radiation which fills all space if there is nothing between the elementary particles? What is the inter-relationship between matter, energy and time that you can group them together? How does the dimension of time relate to matter and energy? If this boundless black void is 'nothing', how can it even be defined as 'nothing' and given attributes? If it is nothing, then there's nothing there! Enjoying your post. That's often what happens when inexperienced posters post long posts- It ends up not making much sense. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
libstaK Posted July 10, 2011 #17 Share Posted July 10, 2011 That's often what happens when inexperienced posters post long posts- It ends up not making much sense. That was personal and uncalled for, Star Mountain Kid and Encouraged were having a perfectly reasonable discourse, why disparage any of it? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mentalcase Posted July 10, 2011 #18 Share Posted July 10, 2011 That's often what happens when inexperienced posters post long posts- It ends up not making much sense. Funny, you unwittingly described yourself in your signature. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
0011235813 Posted July 12, 2011 #19 Share Posted July 12, 2011 Funny, you unwittingly described yourself in your signature. not really sure what you are trying to say- over 350 posts doesn't count as "little" if it's below 100 then yes. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mentalcase Posted July 12, 2011 #20 Share Posted July 12, 2011 not really sure what you are trying to say- over 350 posts doesn't count as "little" if it's below 100 then yes. I was referring to your signature, not your rude comment above. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
0011235813 Posted July 12, 2011 #21 Share Posted July 12, 2011 I was referring to your signature, not your rude comment above. This is off topic. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mentalcase Posted July 12, 2011 #22 Share Posted July 12, 2011 This is off topic. Touché. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Eldorado Posted July 12, 2011 #23 Share Posted July 12, 2011 Why is the universe so complex in its structure? Look how intricately it is constructed as described by the two theories of relativity, quantum mechanics and string/M-theory. Then there's dark matter and dark energy, virtual energy, the multitude of elementary particles and the complex laws that govern their behavior, what spacetime may be like at the sub-Planck scale, singularities, etc., etc., on and on. It seems all so complicated and elaborately designed and over-engineered. Couldn't a simpler design have worked just as well? http://www.anvari.org/fortune/Miscellaneous_Collections/256110_the-hitchhikers-guide-to-the-galaxy-is-an-indispensable-companion-to-all-those-who-are-keen-to-make-sense-of-life-in-an-infinitely-complex-and-confusing-universe.html Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mentalcase Posted July 12, 2011 #24 Share Posted July 12, 2011 http://www.anvari.org/fortune/Miscellaneous_Collections/256110_the-hitchhikers-guide-to-the-galaxy-is-an-indispensable-companion-to-all-those-who-are-keen-to-make-sense-of-life-in-an-infinitely-complex-and-confusing-universe.html Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
StarMountainKid Posted July 12, 2011 Author #25 Share Posted July 12, 2011 http://www.anvari.or...g-universe.html Great books. I've learned a lot from them. I really have. It's helped open my mind to the absurdities of the universe. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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