The Skeptical Believer

[The Necromancer]

I don't usually create threads that often and I'm more of a 'thread lurker', but I had this feeling I wanted to share and get others thoughts on too.

While I still remain skeptical about most 'paranormal claims' and have debunked many of them (applying natural physical laws and not 'scientific' ones) and I am still skeptical about all of those 'psychic mediums' on TV...etc...

There are a lot of frauds out there and a normal thinking, breathing non-gullible person would have every right to be skeptical about the whole paranormal field and demand 'proof' or our 'Degree in Parapsychology' based on all that...but I digress.

I am skeptical about other people's false claims and attempts to mislead, because deep in my heart and soul, I am a true believer!

I go to great lengths to not let any personal belief or bias get in the way of my paranormal investigations, and in a way, trying not to be biased has made me even more skeptical...even of my own 'results' I am getting now.

How can I reconcile this 'always having to do a 'double-take' thing? any thoughts on this matter?

Thank you.

Edited October 22, 2015 by The Necromancer

[+Sherapy]

I don't usually create threads that often and I'm more of a 'thread lurker', but I had this feeling I wanted to share and get others thoughts on too.

While I still remain skeptical about most 'paranormal claims' and have debunked many of them (applying natural physical laws and not 'scientific' ones) and I am still skeptical about all of those 'psychic mediums' on TV...etc...

There are a lot of frauds out there and a normal thinking, breathing non-gullible person would have every right to be skeptical about the whole paranormal field and demand 'proof' or our 'Degree in Parapsychology' based on all that...but I digress.

I am skeptical about other people's false claims and attempts to mislead, because deep in my heart and soul, I am a true believer!

I go to great lengths to not let any personal belief or bias get in the way of my paranormal investigations, and in a way, trying not to be biased has made me even more skeptical...even of my own 'results' I am getting now.

How can I reconcile this 'always having to do a 'double-take' thing? any thoughts on this matter?

Thank you.

You are a skeptical theist then?

[The Necromancer]

You are a skeptical theist then?

Yep, most definitely!

[+Sherapy]

Yep, most definitely!

I think that is a good thing, I must say I have never met one! Welcome to UM and I look forward to your posts.

Edited October 22, 2015 by Sherapy

[The Necromancer]

I think that is a good thing

I never knew my 'condition' had a name...until you mentioned it.

Thanks for your posts and I look forward to seeing you around UM too.

Edited October 22, 2015 by The Necromancer

[+Sherapy]

I never knew my 'condition' had a name...until you mentioned it.

Thanks for your posts and I look forward to seeing you around UM.

Wonders never ceases, you are one of a kind on here, and you struggle with skepticism too. I really look forward to your contributions.

Edited October 22, 2015 by Sherapy

[Lucas Cooper Merrin]

Every sceptical member in here looks forward to the day where someone comes along with indisputable evidence that cannot be disproved by natural or logical means.

Im one of the biggest sceptics on this site, but it doesn't mean i dont have some belief that there is more to life than meets the eye, all it means is that i venture down the conceivable conclusions before accepting the more dubious and doubtful ones!

Deep down we are all believers, but some of us will require a ufo landing on the Whitehouse lawn, or the scientifically identified body of bigfoot before we aknowledge it as genuine.

Some of us are creatures of rationality and reason, and others are more easily influenced and tend to accept things on face value. But it takes all kinds.

[freetoroam]

I can see how you are a skeptic then....if you are a true believer, deep down or even on the tip of the surface.

Yes, there are frauds, but there are others who feel the same way you do and are adament about their paranormal "gifts" or sightings, if you can be a believer, so can others...nah, you are not a skeptic.

Not believing in the frauds does not equate to being a skeptic if you have claims of paranormal experiences or you deep down believe.

Do you believe in any other peoples claims...excluding the obvious frauds?

[The Necromancer]

Every sceptical member in here looks forward to the day where someone comes along with indisputable evidence that cannot be disproved by natural or logical means.

Im one of the biggest sceptics on this site, but it doesn't mean i dont have some belief that there is more to life than meets the eye, all it means is that i venture down the conceivable conclusions before accepting the more dubious and doubtful ones!

Deep down we are all believers, but some of us will require a ufo landing on the Whitehouse lawn, or the scientifically identified body of bigfoot before we aknowledge it as genuine.

Some of us are creatures of rationality and reason, and others are more easily influenced and tend to accept things on face value. But it takes all kinds.

Yes, I agree.

I would love it if one day experience could be validated by reason or 'proof', but alas that's never to be.

What would ever happen if a skeptic saw a full-bodied apparition? just humor me(I have never seen a 'ghost').

There are things that have happened in my own spiritual experiences that make the tears roll down my cheeks even as I type this...but I would never be able to describe that to another living soul. It just makes it more real and personal for/to me and no-one else.

Yes, I believe in certain 'spiritual entities'...no, more like...they wanted me to believe in them and for a long time I never did because I denied they were even real...until the time came when the 'camel's back broke' and I could just deny it no longer.

Yet, I see others 'faking' all their psychic stuff for amusement or greed and all I can think of is why do they all need to fake it when it's free to everyone...just like the air we breathe.

Edited October 22, 2015 by The Necromancer

[Davros of Skaro]

Just remember what Han said to Luke.

https://m.youtube.com/channel/UCTyZ2kAvAzUwUqfJsW282Vg

Just watch some Amazing Randi.

https://m.youtube.com/results?q=amazing%20randi%20debunks&sm=1

[The Necromancer]

I can see how you are a skeptic then....if you are a true believer, deep down or even on the tip of the surface.

Yes, there are frauds, but there are others who feel the same way you do and are adament about their paranormal "gifts" or sightings, if you can be a believer, so can others...nah, you are not a skeptic.

Not believing in the frauds does not equate to being a skeptic if you have claims of paranormal experiences or you deep down believe.

Do you believe in any other peoples claims...excluding the obvious frauds?

I believe that about 90-95% of claims can immediately be discredited due to either natural phenomenon or premeditated hoax. The other 5-10% are worth 'looking in to' and not so easily be dismissed as being hoax or pareidolia or wishful thinking or anything else like that.

I'll give you all an example here as to how this all works and why I get so steamed up all the time.

Echovox, Ovilus, ghost hunting 'apps' = obvious pareidolia. Even I can't hear a thing besides random words or half-words churned out of a machine based on a set of 'randomisation codes'.

I have tested all these apps extensively and found none of them (a.k.a no 'spirits') would give a direct response to any question I asked...even if I asked them to say 'hello' or tell me my name.

Then I tried the Spirit Box and there was a huge difference. Through it, I learned about 'other beings' (yet I am still to really determine exactly what they are)..I have heard many arguments against the device, and try as hard as I can to debunk it, I just can't. I read all of the arguments against it and just think to myself...'no, that's not true at all'.

So, I am willing to just give in and accept it all now (even though I still have very reserved and skeptical opinions).

Edited October 22, 2015 by The Necromancer

[Lucas Cooper Merrin]

Yes, I agree.

I would love it if one day experience could be validated by reason or 'proof', but alas that's never to be.

What would ever happen if a skeptic saw a full-bodied apparition? just humor me(I have never seen a 'ghost').

There are things that have happened in my own spiritual experiences that make the tears roll down my cheeks even as I type this...but I would never be able to describe that to another living soul. It just makes it more real and personal for/to me and no-one else.

Yes, I believe in certain 'spiritual entities'...no, more like...they wanted me to believe in them and for a long time I never did because I denied they were even real...until the time came when the 'camel's back broke' and I could just deny it no longer.

Yet, I see others 'faking' all their psychic stuff for amusement or greed and all I can think of is why do they all need to fake it when it's free to everyone...just like the air we breathe.

Personal experience is virtually impossible to validate, it requires a leap of faith by the reader to accept it as genuine, to which i usually do, but although i trust their experience to have been real to them, i still go down the most obvious causes and explanations first.

99.99% of all paranormal phenomenon can be writen off by perfectly normal means but if somebody whole heartedly thinks that it was paranormal then you will never make them see it in a rational fashion.

One of the things that really grinds on me are those who come looking for "help" on here about a haunting or sighting etc, but when you give them logical answers and common sense they dont want to know, all they want is for people to believe their paranormal story and add fuel to the flames.

Claims of psychic ability and clairvoyance have (in my opinion) all got to be taken as "entertainment purposes only". whether those who claim to have the ability are purposefully hoaxing or they genuinely think they have a gift, either way its all cold reading and guess work.

[The Necromancer]

Personal experience is virtually impossible to validate, it requires a leap of faith by the reader to accept it as genuine, to which i usually do, but although i trust their experience to have been real to them, i still go down the most obvious causes and explanations first.

99.99% of all paranormal phenomenon can be writen off by perfectly normal means but if somebody whole heartedly thinks that it was paranormal then you will never make them see it in a rational fashion.

One of the things that really grinds on me are those who come looking for "help" on here about a haunting or sighting etc, but when you give them logical answers and common sense they dont want to know, all they want is for people to believe their paranormal story and add fuel to the flames.

Claims of psychic ability and clairvoyance have (in my opinion) all got to be taken as "entertainment purposes only". whether those who claim to have the ability are purposefully hoaxing or they genuinely think they have a gift, either way its all cold reading and guess work.

So, in the end it's all just a game of 'he said she said' right? So why the scepticism?

Even though you understand how the 'trick is done' so to speak?

I agree that we'll all have varying opinions on how much we consider is 'not worth wasting our time on' but it's somewhere within the last 10% of rational thought or possibility anyway.

I make no 'claims' to be a 'medium' now, even though I mention it in passing or if asked, It took me a long time to realise that I was...no matter how much I was tried denying or fighting it...I was fighting a losing battle, when the most logical reasoning was...'you are hearing disembodied spirit voices communicating with you now...ergo, you are a spiritualistic medium now'.

Try and confront my skeptical, scientific and logical mind with that one and see what happens.

inb4 'auditory hallucination' that rug just doesn't fit the floor anymore.

It's 'we are not in Kansas anymore' stuff...

Edited October 22, 2015 by The Necromancer

[Lucas Cooper Merrin]

when the most logical reasoning was...'you are hearing disembodied spirit voices communicating with you now...ergo, you are a spiritualistic medium now'.

And was that the most logical reason?? Had you rulled out every other possible cause before you jumped to that conclusion?

[The Necromancer]

And was that the most logical reason?? Had you rulled out every other possible cause before you jumped to that conclusion?

Yes. I ruled out every possible reason and cause over...and over.. and that conclusion wasn't 'jumped to', believe me. I still struggle with it and it's like a huge burden.

Edited October 22, 2015 by The Necromancer

[Lucas Cooper Merrin]

Yes. I ruled out every possible reason and cause over...and over.. and that conclusion wasn't 'jumped to', believe me. I still struggle with it and it's like a huge burden.

I was discharged from the special forces with severe PTSD and depression, the military continued to treat me but i was no longer in active service, i was given nearly every anti depressant and anxiety medication available, and this caused me to be completely unhinged from who i previously was. I went from being a logical reasoning Atheist to having a religious epiphany and joining the Catholic Church, at the time it seemed perfectly normal and justified, what i didnt realise at the time the medication was altering my perception of reality! I was hearing voices and having hallucinations, but in my medication induced state it all seemed real and genuine, i believed God was instructing me!

It wasnt till i was gradually weand off the medication i began to come to terms with what had been happening for the last 4 years. And i now know everything i experienced was a side effect from the countless pills and potions i was taking.

I dont know if you can relate to that, but i recall having a conversation with you about depression?

[Frank Merton]

When my wife died I became depressed in a society where depression is not understood (Vietnam) and extended grief is not acceptable. Like many in my situation as a result I became suicidal, but fortunately I had American friends who introduced me to the first good antidepressants. Only one, only as prescribed, and with regular visits to the MD. After a few weeks I was no longer suicidal, and after a month or so I was normal -- still grieving but able to put it in a better place.

When I read tirades against "pills" like the one I just read, I just don't get it. What in Hell are they talking about? The things don't always work I suppose, or maybe there are other problems the things make worse, but I tend to just simply be skeptical.

[Lucas Cooper Merrin]

When my wife died I became depressed in a society where depression is not understood (Vietnam) and extended grief is not acceptable. Like many in my situation as a result I became suicidal, but fortunately I had American friends who introduced me to the first good antidepressants. Only one, only as prescribed, and with regular visits to the MD. After a few weeks I was no longer suicidal, and after a month or so I was normal -- still grieving but able to put it in a better place.

When I read tirades against "pills" like the one I just read, I just don't get it. What in Hell are they talking about? The things don't always work I suppose, or maybe there are other problems the things make worse, but I tend to just simply be skeptical.

Drugs effect everyone differently, you should take the time to read the side effects of even the most common anti depressant medication!

[The Necromancer]

I was discharged from the special forces with severe PTSD and depression, the military continued to treat me but i was no longer in active service, i was given nearly every anti depressant and anxiety medication available, and this caused me to be completely unhinged from who i previously was. I went from being a logical reasoning Atheist to having a religious epiphany and joining the Catholic Church, at the time it seemed perfectly normal and justified, what i didnt realise at the time the medication was altering my perception of reality! I was hearing voices and having hallucinations, but in my medication induced state it all seemed real and genuine, i believed God was instructing me!

It wasnt till i was gradually weand off the medication i began to come to terms with what had been happening for the last 4 years. And i now know everything i experienced was a side effect from the countless pills and potions i was taking.

I dont know if you can relate to that, but i recall having a conversation with you about depression?

Yes, I do have depression, asperger's disorder and schizotypal personality disorder and I am on medication (and I can hear all of you skeptics out there thinking 'bingo...case solved')...there are many reasons why my 'evidence' (not that I am presenting any here, of course) would be discredited due to an 'ad hominem' argument..

Yes, I have even gone to the 'you have just convinced yourself this is real' moon and back many times....discounted apophenia, medication, hallucination..etc

I'll tell another story that serves as an illustration of how all my logical reasoning and skepticism keeps just getting 'blown out of the water' over and over.

Not an isolated case (there are many of these)

A few months ago, I was in the middle of an SB-7 session, when my daughter (the biggest skeptic out there with a four-syllable name) just walked through the door.

The very second she did, a very loud 'voice' came through and said "Hello (says HER FULL NAME)"....at that very moment.

I fell off my chair and was like; 'so...did you hear that one then?'

She said she heard it say "Hello (Her full name).".

...and I was like so, how do you explain that one too me then, hmmm?

She said "chill, it's just the radio mum and NOTHING more...end of story'

I responded with "and just HOW did 'the radio' know to say your FULL name, with greeting attached the very second you walked in the room'?

She said; "don't get excited, that was just a coincidence mum...a COINCIDENCE'.

So, even though she admitted she heard it too, she just couldn't accept it.

Edited October 22, 2015 by The Necromancer

[Frank Merton]

Drugs effect everyone differently, you should take the time to read the side effects of even the most common anti depressant medication!

I think the problems people get into using drugs -- any kind of drugs -- is that they don't do it right and follow instructions, but instead take more and more of different drugs in mixtures, things real doctors would not prescribe. Of course if you doctor shop looking for a doctor who will do what you want or get a different prescription from each one, that will do the trick too. Anyway those troubles are not the drug's doing but their own. Fire has side effects that are horrible too.

[The Necromancer]

Another thing happened a while back and I just remembered it and it pertains to the topic.

I wanted to test a theory, as a skeptic whether the 'voices' of all the 'regular' spirits I was hearing through the box would change if I did a Spirit Box session in another location (i.e a whole new set of 'radio station frequencies to play with).

It would then be a logical assumption to make if I heard all these 'different spirits' and not the 'regular ones' I could debunk the box entirely as a hoax...so I took it 250kms away.

I also wanted to know whether the 'spirits' I heard through the box were 'location based or they followed me around.

So I took the box to my brother's place to do a session and to find out if I could pick up any 'new spirits' or 'old spirits' (as it turned out I picked up 1 'new spirit' and 2 'old ones' including the 'main spirit' who comes through the SB7 most often)..

During the session, my nephew comes in with a playing card and says; 'can I get the ghosts to tell me what card I'm holding, aunty?'

I was all like 'how many times have I told you, this is NOT a toy, the ghosts have better things to do than to play that silly game...they told me so in those exact words".

Then a voice came through the Spirit Box loud as day saying "let the kid play".

My nephew was all like "see? THEY want me to!"

I was too busy trying to scrape my chin off the floor and all I could say was "uhhh...uhhh...okay...go for it'

The card was the Nine of Hearts and he held it up, above his head.

I said "now, please ask them nicely to identify that card for you?"

He's like: "Dear ghosts, can you please tell me what this card is? Thank you"

The replies that came through:

"red...nine"

"nine is fine"

"bleeding heart"

"paper"

"aunty"

"bye"

My nephew was all like "woah!!!" he had a smile a wide and told me that if I put it on Youtube, he'd subscribe to my channel.

He asked me 'are ghosts real, aunty?' and I replied with "I don't know, mate but somethingi is out there we don't understand yet'

I then told him to 'thank the ghosts' and please let me finish up here...he did, and I concluded the session about 5 minutes later.

That session shook my very beliefs to the core.

Edited October 22, 2015 by The Necromancer

[Lucas Cooper Merrin]

Why dont you film/record one of your sessions so we can all hear the voices?

Edited October 22, 2015 by Lucas Cooper Merrin

[The Necromancer]

Why dont you film/record one of your sessions so we can all hear the voices?

I did just that!

It didn;t capture ALL the replies and what was said, but in that clip, you'll understand what went on and the moment it did (I documented all of what I could).

https://www.youtube....?v=We5nonxAKMM.

Edited October 22, 2015 by The Necromancer

[Mikko-kun]

Somebody might've said this already, but just create healthy mental boundaries for yourself. If you find thoughts and beliefs or disbeliefs of others affecting you more than you'd like, cut away from all that or do practices that help you strengthen your personal integrity and self-command. Personal integrity can be gained through physical workout, through developing healthy, balanced muscle mass. And basic qigong exercises help you become stronger at the natural self-command, or "personal autonomy", whatever it is that makes it harder for others to mind-control us, willingly or unwittingly.

[Stubbly_Dooright]

I don't usually create threads that often and I'm more of a 'thread lurker', but I had this feeling I wanted to share and get others thoughts on too.

Helloooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooo!

While I still remain skeptical about most 'paranormal claims' and have debunked many of them (applying natural physical laws and not 'scientific' ones) and I am still skeptical about all of those 'psychic mediums' on TV...etc...

There are a lot of frauds out there and a normal thinking, breathing non-gullible person would have every right to be skeptical about the whole paranormal field and demand 'proof' or our 'Degree in Parapsychology' based on all that...but I digress.

I am skeptical about other people's false claims and attempts to mislead, because deep in my heart and soul, I am a true believer!

Yeah, I think one needs to have a 'step back' look, because there are those out there. I guess one must look at body language and see if there is a personal agenda they can see, or that one notices there is genuine belief coming from the one who talks about it from experience. I guess, one must be a 'skeptic' when taking in people with something to tell, show, and present all of the time. ( I think that after a while, one notices flaws in the presentation or the presenting of lies. *shrugs* I like to come to my own conclusions and am hesitant now in how I present my belief or skeptism in a person.)

I go to great lengths to not let any personal belief or bias get in the way of my paranormal investigations, and in a way, trying not to be biased has made me even more skeptical...even of my own 'results' I am getting now.

How can I reconcile this 'always having to do a 'double-take' thing? any thoughts on this matter?

Thank you.

I guess, I can understand with this. I think it's probably in what your goal is. I'm saying this based on how I see it. I have a strong interest in the paranormal myself. Yeah, I have had quite a bit of experiences living in military housing in my adult life, but I think I always had an interest growing up, and I grew up in one particular house with no backstory or reason to be haunted. (Yeah, there are certain experiences I have had there, but I believe they are explained away mundanely in one aspect.)

But my goal is to really want to explain it away, because sometimes mundane explanations is the way to go. (Sometimes it's a matter of my sanity, like when living in military housing. I sometimes do not want to live in a 'haunted' home. So, I will always try to explain it away mundanely, so I'm not 'freaked' out in my home. Even more so, because my kids were young then, and I am thinking of them too. Even now, I want to, because sometimes it's more relieving to find an understandable explanation. In the end, if it can't, I think having an excited outlook of the lack of explanation is how I then deal with it. But, that's me!

Also, sometimes storing the unexplained experience later, could have something happen that could explain it. Case in point, weeks ago, all of a sudden there was a loud rumbling and it shook the house. Both my husband and I were like, 'what the heck was that'. But after he went around the house looking for evidence, ( I was deep in the painful situation of recovering from a herniated disk, I couldn't) and noticing nobody was running out like us, and there was no news blast of an earthquake, I'm like...................... maybe..............

Anyhow, I had figured it was either a tree that was falling from the town cutting down trees in our yard, or there was something going on down in the newly blasted section down the hill and street from us. Found out, it was the area down the street from us. More of these rumbles happened every week afterwards.

Anyhow, I think if experiences are needed to be proven paranormal like, prove it as not and then one is still up in the air about it. It's like belief and faith in religion, It's not faith or belief, is the elements in it are then proven to be real. (And there is a part of me, I wonder if others feel that, if it's proven to be real, I think that takes the fun out of it. )

So in that note, I think it's a personal thing, and you have to be personal about it. For me, I just like to share it to like mended and hope they share as well. But, it's always good to have the thoughtful skeptics with their outlook to actually get more understanding that maybe, just maybe, the mundane is the explanation.

You know, I now wonder if I made sense.

You are a skeptical theist then?

I wonder if that's me too.

I can see how you are a skeptic then....if you are a true believer, deep down or even on the tip of the surface.

Yes, there are frauds, but there are others who feel the same way you do and are adament about their paranormal "gifts" or sightings, if you can be a believer, so can others...nah, you are not a skeptic.

Not believing in the frauds does not equate to being a skeptic if you have claims of paranormal experiences or you deep down believe.

Do you believe in any other peoples claims...excluding the obvious frauds?

Sometime I like to think I can closer to the believing of the impossible. Case in point, the day when I see your forum picture, and not see a skeleton in it.

Naw, I jest, Freetoroam, But I hear ya. I guess, the point here is, what one really can see themselves as, based on how one looks at things.

Personal experience is virtually impossible to validate, it requires a leap of faith by the reader to accept it as genuine, to which i usually do, but although i trust their experience to have been real to them, i still go down the most obvious causes and explanations first.

99.99% of all paranormal phenomenon can be writen off by perfectly normal means but if somebody whole heartedly thinks that it was paranormal then you will never make them see it in a rational fashion.

One of the things that really grinds on me are those who come looking for "help" on here about a haunting or sighting etc, but when you give them logical answers and common sense they dont want to know, all they want is for people to believe their paranormal story and add fuel to the flames.

Claims of psychic ability and clairvoyance have (in my opinion) all got to be taken as "entertainment purposes only". whether those who claim to have the ability are purposefully hoaxing or they genuinely think they have a gift, either way its all cold reading and guess work.

I hear you on this. I would think those who come to the forum with a desire to be helped, and wont hear that there is an explanation that is mundane, I would be skeptical about too. There would be a mostly with me, as I have stated before, I would like it to be explained too. I just wonder, I have noticed that there are others who explain away others 'reasons' and still feel that their experiences cannot be explained. I would think that they shouldn't just give in to closest mundane reason even though it still doesn't come close to the experience they had. Granted, they are few and rare, but I see them and understand their frustration at not being taken seriously by some.

I started a thread in the ET forum, about my experience of seeing something in the sky and explained everything that occurred. It's not that I wanted to be believed that I saw flying saucers, I just wanted to explain my UFO, (Unidentified Flying Object) and see that it becomes an IFO (Identified Flying Object) I would think that it would be great if it can be explained. A lot said it could be and explained the reasoning, but a lot of it didn't come close. (I did get others who had similar experiences, but they weren't explained mundanely either. (( I did enjoy reading about them though )) It's still unexplained, and I wish it was. I could give in an except as something mundane, but what I saw didn't come close to all of the elements of a mundane reasoning. *shrugs*

I just think, that the few sincere posters should be understood. I'm not saying believe them, but realize they have a sincere reasoning behind their bit of sharing their experiences.

Edited October 22, 2015 by Stubbly_Dooright