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Remains Of Homo Sapiens 400,000 Years ago

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#46    kmt_sesh

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Posted 03 April 2013 - 02:44 AM

View PostMR.Blueprint, on 03 April 2013 - 12:59 AM, said:

i cant find it i need to start saving the videos i watch
because i watch more than one on a subject matter

and one of them said what is now Ethiopia was the first lad out the waters

MR.Blueprint, it is well understood that water was probably there when the Earth began, although not in the form of oceans. In other words, water has existed here for billions of years. Without a doubt, when oceans first formed, the continents as we know them now were considerably different. You know this as well as I, so I won't descend into a diatribe on geological history.

The salient point is, the land area we know today as Ethiopia did not exist—but extant land masses billions of years ago pre-existed oceans. That said, I think it's futile to say which "emerged" first from the oceans, since land pre-existed the oceans.

With respect, I might posit that the video you watched was put together by someone with an afrocentric bent. This would make it as devoid of reliable educational information as anything cobbled together by some eurocentrist.

I couldn't agree more with The_Spartan: YouTube is for entertainment, not education. I quite enjoy YouTube videos for their source of entertainment but find the vast majority of them quite lacking in educational merit.

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#47    cormac mac airt

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Posted 03 April 2013 - 03:16 AM

View Postdocyabut2, on 02 April 2013 - 12:56 PM, said:

it has long been believed that modern man emerged from the continent of Africa 200,000 years ago. Now Tel Aviv University archaeologists have uncovered evidence that Homo sapiens roamed the land now called Israel as early as 400,000 years ago - the earliest evidence for the existence of modern man anywhere in the world.


So the frist migration of homo sapians out of Africa was earlier.

Not quite. While the Arabian Nubian Complex sites which Abramelin's Post #41 refers to dates to c.106,000 BP, both the oldest Y Chromosome and mtDNA haplogroups are found in Africa and post-date the claimed 400,000 BP timeframe in Israel. Since the remains tested from Israel, namely teeth, are the only remains that were found it remains a matter of debate as to which species of human they belong to. There is still alot more research that will have to be done to conclusively answer this question.

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#48    MR.Blueprint

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Posted 03 April 2013 - 04:02 AM

View Postcormac mac airt, on 03 April 2013 - 03:16 AM, said:

Not quite. While the Arabian Nubian Complex sites which Abramelin's Post #41 refers to dates to c.106,000 BP, both the oldest Y Chromosome and mtDNA haplogroups are found in Africa and post-date the claimed 400,000 BP timeframe in Israel. Since the remains tested from Israel, namely teeth, are the only remains that were found it remains a matter of debate as to which species of human they belong to. There is still alot more research that will have to be done to conclusively answer this question.

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yes i think genetic will be our best evidence in finding the origin of humans

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#49    Dragonwind

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Posted 03 April 2013 - 05:49 AM

I would love someone to do a computer animation, through time, of hominid/modern human dispersal relative to climate change on a more accurate or interactive level. North Africa, the middle east and southern europe is such a fascinating area due to it's geography, bottle necking of mountain ranges or oceans, niche environments, glacial patterns and even subsequent modern day history. Anthropology rarely articulates the complexity of ice age movements and climate change (and also natural disasters like Toba). It is mentioned broadly and vaguely but I'd like to see more cronology between the two.Perhaps an anthrolpology book co-authored by a climate specialist? Also patterns of migration may not always be one way. Ice ages were pushing humans up and down...they may not have always been 'leaving africa' but re-entering from the eurasia.

Edited by Dragonwind, 03 April 2013 - 05:53 AM.


#50    Harsh86_Patel

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Posted 03 April 2013 - 08:53 AM

View PostMR.Blueprint, on 03 April 2013 - 04:02 AM, said:

yes i think genetic will be our best evidence in finding the origin of humans
But genetic data will have to interpreted in the right context for it to be translated to actual historical data. For eg- i cannot claim that a particular gene 'originated' in a particular geographical location because i found  it in old mummies found in those locations(all i can assert is that this particular gene was found in this location in this particular time period), similarly i cannot comment on the origins of a particular gene based on current genetic data alone i.e i cannot say that since majority of people in a particular region have a gene means that the gene originated there. So use of genetic data in the historical context has to be along with archaeological and cultural proof to make a strong case.

The current confusion in the various migration theories and theories of human origin based only on genetic data is due to these fundamental errors.The reason that people consider Africa as the continent where the first humans originated is based more on the current observations and to put it blankly is one of the most racist conclusion. The people who suggested that Africa is the place where Humans first originated said this more because they considered the populus of Africa (majorly Negroid) as lesser evolved Humans and hence Africa as a cradle of Humanity.This line of reasoning i.e the negroid being lesser evolved humans was also used to justify slavery.

Recent genetic studies have been used to back -up this assumption that first humans came out of Africa.Though it still confounds me how it was decided in the first place that Africa is the origin of modern Humans.

Edited by Harsh86_Patel, 03 April 2013 - 08:54 AM.


#51    Abramelin

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Posted 03 April 2013 - 09:00 AM

Nonsense: the reason Africa is seen as the cradle of humanity is because its population has the highest genetic diversity of mankind, plus that the remnants of the oldest ancestors of man have been found there.


#52    Harsh86_Patel

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Posted 03 April 2013 - 09:01 AM

Sometimes only teeth were used to design entire new species around them by the Evolutionist. And it is very probable that Homo Sapiens are older then the evolutionist currently acknowledge,the timelines suggested by these people are mainly to fit things in their evolutionary scheme of things.
A argument based on the frequency of mutations observed in Modern humans which is way less compared to the one attributed to our ancestors by the evolutionists is itself enough to suggest that modern humans are way older then the evolutionists sugget, without having justifiably higher frequency of mutations it is difficult to believe that Modern Humans are only 1,50,000 years old. Their own stipulations of the theory of evolution doesn't allow them such a fast rate of evolution of modern humans.

Edited by Harsh86_Patel, 03 April 2013 - 09:04 AM.


#53    Harsh86_Patel

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Posted 03 April 2013 - 09:03 AM

View PostAbramelin, on 03 April 2013 - 09:00 AM, said:

Nonsense: the reason Africa is seen as the cradle of humanity is because its population has the highest genetic diversity of mankind, plus that the remnants of the oldest ancestors of man have been found there.
None of this information if it is true was known at the time when this theory was first suggested. (guess this is enough to prove that there were ulterior motives).
Please elaborate though, what is meant by highest genetic diversity of mankind? Oldest ancestor of man?

The highest genetic diversity is a very vague argument,since Africa in a way is centrally placed and has been a region where people from all around the world have been staying and breeding in the recent past.Africa has been occupied by various European people and Asian people during known history. Obviously there is going to be a lot of Genetic diversity there how does that prove anything.

Edited by Harsh86_Patel, 03 April 2013 - 09:10 AM.


#54    Abramelin

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Posted 03 April 2013 - 09:09 AM

View PostHarsh86_Patel, on 03 April 2013 - 09:03 AM, said:

None of this information if it is true was known at the time when this theory was first suggested. (guess this is enough to prove that there were ulterior motives).
Please elaborate though, what is meant by highest genetic diversity of mankind? Oldest ancestor of man?

Africa contains the most human genetic diversity anywhere on Earth, and the genetic structure of Africans traces to 14 ancestral population clusters that correlate with ethnicity and culture or language. The study lasted 10-years and analyzed variations at 1,327 DNA markers of 121 African populations, 4 African American populations, and 60 non-African populations.

(...)

Other evidence supporting the theory is that variations in skull measurements decrease with distance from Africa at the same rate as the decrease in genetic diversity. Human genetic diversity decreases in native populations with migratory distance from Africa, and this is thought to be due to bottlenecks during human migration, which are events that temporarily reduce population size.

(...)

Our history as a species also has left genetic signals in regional populations. For example, in addition to having higher levels of genetic diversity, populations in Africa tend to have lower amounts of linkage disequilibrium than do populations outside Africa, partly because of the larger size of human populations in Africa over the course of human history and partly because the number of modern humans who left Africa to colonize the rest of the world appears to have been relatively low (Gabriel et al. 2002). In contrast, populations that have undergone dramatic size reductions or rapid expansions in the past and populations formed by the mixture of previously separate ancestral groups can have unusually high levels of linkage disequilibrium (Nordborg and Tavare 2002).

http://en.wikipedia....netic_variation


#55    Harsh86_Patel

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Posted 03 April 2013 - 09:22 AM

View PostAbramelin, on 03 April 2013 - 09:09 AM, said:

Africa contains the most human genetic diversity anywhere on Earth, and the genetic structure of Africans traces to 14 ancestral population clusters that correlate with ethnicity and culture or language. The study lasted 10-years and analyzed variations at 1,327 DNA markers of 121 African populations, 4 African American populations, and 60 non-African populations.

(...)

Other evidence supporting the theory is that variations in skull measurements decrease with distance from Africa at the same rate as the decrease in genetic diversity. Human genetic diversity decreases in native populations with migratory distance from Africa, and this is thought to be due to bottlenecks during human migration, which are events that temporarily reduce population size.

(...)

Our history as a species also has left genetic signals in regional populations. For example, in addition to having higher levels of genetic diversity, populations in Africa tend to have lower amounts of linkage disequilibrium than do populations outside Africa, partly because of the larger size of human populations in Africa over the course of human history and partly because the number of modern humans who left Africa to colonize the rest of the world appears to have been relatively low (Gabriel et al. 2002). In contrast, populations that have undergone dramatic size reductions or rapid expansions in the past and populations formed by the mixture of previously separate ancestral groups can have unusually high levels of linkage disequilibrium (Nordborg and Tavare 2002).

http://en.wikipedia....netic_variation
The first point you made is true. Africa has the maximum genetic diversity currently i.e today in the world according to the study you stated.The diversity can be explained by events happening in relatively recent known history.No need to extrapolate it to the times when humans evolved.

The second point regarding skull size variation,is a retarded suggestion as what does skull size have to do with distance from Africa? lol....this is a stupid argument that our ancestors had a bigger skull and the farther they moved from Africa the skull size decreased lol.....this sort of evidence hardly helps. It can also be conversely argued that people with smaller skulls moved towards Africa from all parts of the world and their skull sizes started increasing as they started becoming more intelligent with bigger brain sizes due to evolution

The third point shoots the out of africa theory in the foot, as on one side it is claimed that the modern i.e.current  population in Africa shows lesser linkage disequilibrium which wouldn't be the case if people migrated out of Africa in large droves which would be necessary for evolution to have acted substantially on these migrating population. lol

Edited by Harsh86_Patel, 03 April 2013 - 09:24 AM.


#56    Abramelin

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Posted 03 April 2013 - 09:27 AM

If you don't understand, please say so.

Not skull size, but:

variations in skull measurements decrease with distance from Africa

Plus:

Africa contains the most human genetic diversity anywhere on Earth, and the genetic structure of Africans traces to 14 ancestral population clusters that correlate with ethnicity and culture or language.

.

Edited by Abramelin, 03 April 2013 - 09:31 AM.


#57    Harsh86_Patel

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Posted 03 April 2013 - 09:33 AM

View PostAbramelin, on 03 April 2013 - 09:27 AM, said:

If you don't understand, please say so.
I wanted to understand what you meant by it.
After your response it is clear to me what you meant,though you quoted wiki.So i responded accordingly.

Also:
But genetic data will have to interpreted in the right context for it to be translated to actual historical data. For eg- i cannot claim that a particular gene 'originated' in a particular geographical location because i found  it in old mummies found in those locations(all i can assert is that this particular gene was found in this location in this particular time period), similarly i cannot comment on the origins of a particular gene based on current genetic data alone i.e i cannot say that since majority of people in a particular region have a gene means that the gene originated there. So use of genetic data in the historical context has to be along with archaeological and cultural proof to make a strong case.

You cannot extrapolate results of current studies of genetic diversity in Africa to the times Humans evolved.


#58    Abramelin

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Posted 03 April 2013 - 09:36 AM

View PostHarsh86_Patel, on 03 April 2013 - 09:22 AM, said:


The third point shoots the out of africa theory in the foot, as on one side it is claimed that the modern i.e.current  population in Africa shows lesser linkage disequilibrium which wouldn't be the case if people migrated out of Africa in large droves which would be necessary for evolution to have acted substantially on these migrating population. lol

But the quote says people DID NOT move out of Africa in large droves.


#59    Abramelin

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Posted 03 April 2013 - 09:41 AM

View PostHarsh86_Patel, on 03 April 2013 - 09:33 AM, said:

I wanted to understand what you meant by it.
After your response it is clear to me what you meant,though you quoted wiki.So i responded accordingly.

Also:
But genetic data will have to interpreted in the right context for it to be translated to actual historical data. For eg- i cannot claim that a particular gene 'originated' in a particular geographical location because i found  it in old mummies found in those locations(all i can assert is that this particular gene was found in this location in this particular time period), similarly i cannot comment on the origins of a particular gene based on current genetic data alone i.e i cannot say that since majority of people in a particular region have a gene means that the gene originated there. So use of genetic data in the historical context has to be along with archaeological and cultural proof to make a strong case.

You cannot extrapolate results of current studies of genetic diversity in Africa to the times Humans evolved.

A Wiki page is as good as its references. Maybe you should check them.

-

Do you have an alternative explanation for the high genetic diversity of Africans other than Africa being the ancestral homeland of humanity?


#60    The_Spartan

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Posted 03 April 2013 - 10:12 AM

View PostAbramelin, on 03 April 2013 - 09:41 AM, said:

A Wiki page is as good as its references. Maybe you should check them.

-

Do you have an alternative explanation for the high genetic diversity of Africans other than Africa being the ancestral homeland of humanity?

Well, what i deeply suspect is that he is trying to link it with his pet Out of India Theory to an extent to state that Hominids and Modern Humans evolved, migrated out of India to other places, and to africa also.

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