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The Practical meaning of Socialism


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#61    RavenHawk

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Posted 01 December 2012 - 08:34 PM

View Postlightly, on 01 December 2012 - 07:04 PM, said:

Bailouts are not  "SOCIALISTIC" .... they are the result of the    Bailees    having control of our government.     Were the bailouts regulated by the community as a whole?
Yes, bailouts are Socialistic.  It is a form of government dependency.  Corporations don’t have that much control but the control they do have is because of Socialism.  Socialism is based in the rule of one or the few and a few corporations have the ability to compete for that power.  If we would put our trust into the invisible hand then corporations wouldn’t be trying to control government because government wouldn’t have that kind power to bestow redistributed wealth.

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socialism |ˈsōSHəˌlizəm|nouna political and economic theory of social organization that advocates that themeans of production, distribution, and exchange should be owned or regulated by the community as a whole.
And you miss the most important part.  The community is ruled by the one or the few and on occasion by the mob.  Individual liberty is limited.

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#62    F3SS

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Posted 01 December 2012 - 08:51 PM

View Postdarkmoonlady, on 01 December 2012 - 08:03 PM, said:

One thing hasn't made sense to me is the rich are a small percentage who rely on capitalism to keep their riches. They don't want people to just receive entitlements they didn't work for like universal health care etc, but doesn't that risk the whole republic by thinking that way? A large population who do not hold wealth are going to become very bitter towards those that are wealthy, and the population of those people with out wealth are either going to demand entitlements or revolt. To avoid that revolt you would think the rich would be for a more socialist ideology for anyone other than themselves just so keep their goodies safe. Yet here we have the Republicans here in the US so against entitlements, blaming the outcome of the election on the "gift basket" Obama supposedly offered up. With out the government helping those getting very little, wouldn't those people target the rich? The Republicans have drawn a line in the sand about the fiscal cliff, drawn a line in the sand about taxing the rich but refuse to offer up help to those in need. This just seems like a ticking time bomb, and is it all in the name of stopping socialism?

Ferris: Not that I condone fascism, or any -ism for that matter. -Ism's in my opinion are not good. A person should not believe in an -ism, he should believe in himself. I quote John Lennon, "I don't believe in Beatles, I just believe in me." Good point there. After all, he was the walrus. I could be the walrus. I'd still have to bum rides off people.
That's not entirely true. Republicans, conservatives, libertarians are not purely against entitlements. They're against handouts. They're against affirmative action which are entitlements simply for being alive. We believe in helping when in need, not giving just because. We believe in a hand up not a hand out. For those truly in need there should always be a way to obtain assistance courtesy of fellow tax payers. That's just what a good, modern, 1st world civilization does and can do. The arguement is that entitlements need reformed. Affirmative action needs to disappear. Labeling everybody into a "special group" is divisive and intentionally so. We should all just be Americans. Equal rights aren't equal rights when only certain people have access to those rights. If a black guy and a white guy with near identical circumstances apply for assistance chances are good that the black guy will get it and the white guy won't. It happened to a friend of mine and the clerk actually told him he'd have been approved if he weren't white. Outrageous! The black guy was never a slave and likely was never truly oppressed due to decades old civil rights laws. So why do we have to keep paying for the sins of the past to people who were never affected by it. Affirmative action sucks and the only "group" of people whom I would never complain about it going towards is native Americans and even then there has to be limits set at some point. People who pop out kids simply for a government check, that needs to end. Those types are a drain on society and a drain on the resources that those truly in need need. Multigenerational welfare families need to end. They too are a drain on everybody. People who go through 99 weeks of unemployment, which is also absurd and demotivational, and don't get a job and then find a way to get more government assistance had better have a damn good reason for doing so rather than just because they can. These types of things need reformed. Nobody wants to be rid of entitlements. It's just that if you don't need it then you aren't entitled to it. It must be purely circumstantial and within good reason. I believe that if you are between 18-65ish in general good health there is absolutely no reason to steal because if you're physically and mentally able and you are knowingly applying for benefits due to outright laziness and a warped sense if entitlement then you are stealing and I know there are circumstances when the Feds will catch you and make you pay it back but those incidences are far to few compared to the amount of waste they could be eliminating from the get go. It's about reform, not eliminating the program.

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#63    Startraveler

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Posted 01 December 2012 - 09:08 PM

View Post-Mr_Fess-, on 30 November 2012 - 09:58 PM, said:

That's funny but is that really a commercial. Feels like there is some missing context. There could've possibly been some more elaboration. Otherwise, that's just an alarming PSA. Not hat I don't agree with it but those less informed might be scratching their heads over that clip.

It's from the paranoid ravings Reagan did on behalf of the AMA in opposing the original Medicare legislation via Operation Coffee Cup in the early '60s. He predicted that if Medicare passed, the government would tell doctors which towns they could and could not live in. Because it's socialism, dontchaknow. It's things like this that make those who rant against "socialism" sound like lunatics.

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But let’s also look from the other side. The freedom the doctor uses. A doctor would be reluctant to say this. Well, like you, I am only a patient, so I can say it in his behalf. The doctor begins to lose freedoms, it’s like telling a lie. One leads to another. First you decide the doctor can have so many patients. They are equally divided among the various doctors by the government, but then the doctors are equally divided geographically, so a doctor decides he wants to practice in one town and the government has to say to him he can’t live in that town, they already have enough doctors. You have to go some place else. And from here it is only a short step to dictating where he will go.



#64    lightly

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Posted 01 December 2012 - 09:46 PM

View PostRavenHawk, on 01 December 2012 - 08:34 PM, said:

Yes, bailouts are Socialistic.  It is a form of government dependency.  Corporations don't have that much control but the control they do have is because of Socialism.  Socialism is based in the rule of one or the few and a few corporations have the ability to compete for that power.  If we would put our trust into the invisible hand then corporations wouldn't be trying to control government because government wouldn't have that kind power to bestow redistributed wealth.


And you miss the most important part.  The community is ruled by the one or the few and on occasion by the mob. Individual liberty is limited.


   Exactly my point.  .. our community is  being "ruled"  by the few  ... instead of the many.    And... Communal liberty is being usurped by the few..   Yes government is the means to that end.    So,  what is taking place doesn't fit the known description and understanding of  Socialism ..  no matter how badly you want it to.

Edited by lightly, 01 December 2012 - 09:51 PM.

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#65    Gromdor

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Posted 01 December 2012 - 10:31 PM

View PostRavenHawk, on 01 December 2012 - 08:32 PM, said:

Well, that's been the point of the op, I have been using the correct context.  It's not the differences but the similarities.  And it's the similarities that matter.


That is certainly an analogy in the genre but it is a poor example.  It is more like Advil and Bayer.  One is ibuprofen and the other is acetylsalicylic acid.  They are two different drugs but people use them for pain relief.  Some can't tolerate one or the other, but they achieve the same goal.

This is only furthuring my point. Advil and Bayer are completely different compounds that block pain in different ways.  If a doctor was discussing this with his colleagues and was calling ibruprofen "Bayer", wouldn't they think he was a little inept and possibly prescribing the wrong painkiller to patients with poor tolerance to ibruprofen/acetylsalicylic acid?
Exchanging word based on their similarities might work for the common man who actually don't have to deal with the subject they are discussing.  That luxury isn't available to people who's credibility relies on their knowledge of the subject.


#66    RavenHawk

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Posted 03 December 2012 - 06:51 PM

View PostGromdor, on 01 December 2012 - 10:31 PM, said:

This is only furthuring my point. Advil and Bayer are completely different compounds that block pain in different ways.  If a doctor was discussing this with his colleagues and was calling ibruprofen "Bayer", wouldn't they think he was a little inept and possibly prescribing the wrong painkiller to patients with poor tolerance to ibruprofen/acetylsalicylic acid?
Actually, it is furthering my point and this is why.  Of course, a doctor wouldn’t be conferring with his colleagues calling ibuprofen “Bayer” or even “aspirin”, but as a pain killer.  Again, when speaking of Oligarchies, you won’t call Nazism “Communism” but you would call it Authoritarian or perhaps Socialist, especially if the context has been identified as such, which it has.

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Exchanging word based on their similarities might work for the common man who actually don't have to deal with the subject they are discussing.  That luxury isn't available to people who's credibility relies on their knowledge of the subject.
You’re still trying to argue semantics and definitions instead of understanding substance.  This gibberish is just another indicator.  I call a spade a spade and that seems to insult your sensibilities because you’ve spent much of your time convincing yourself that European Socialism is an equivalent to the American form of government when it is really just like any other authoritarian form.  Liberty is lost whether it be a Police State or coerced in the gilded gage of a Socialist Democracy.

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#67    RavenHawk

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Posted 03 December 2012 - 07:18 PM

View Postlightly, on 01 December 2012 - 09:46 PM, said:

   Exactly my point.  .. our community is  being "ruled"  by the few  ... instead of the many.    
Except that rule by the many is just as bad.  A Republic is the rule of law.  Our leaders are suppose to have restrictions placed on them by the Constitution.  But they have always tried to push the outside of the envelope.  Sometimes it worked out for the best but most of the time it is an infringement on liberty.  Case in point, Obamacare has been more than just an infringement.  It is an all out assault and violation on our liberty.

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And... Communal liberty is being usurped by the few..  
Liberty is individual, not communal.  Shitters are communal.

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Yes government is the means to that end.    So,  what is taking place doesn't fit the known description and understanding of  Socialism ..  no matter how badly you want it to.
I’m not using academic descriptions.  I thought I was clear on that.  I’m using reality.  Socialism is not a hippie commune.  Socialism is still dependent on the rule of the one or the few.  The longer this goes on, the more power the ruling elite grabs from the people.  We do need leaders and leadership but the Constitution establishes leadership and not rule.  Obama is ruling, not offering leadership.  The life of a Community Organizer…

Corporations do not have that much power.  The American Robber Barons came close.  Although, without them, this country wouldn’t have been as great as it became because of raw Capitalism.  Yes, there were abuses; industrialization was still new.  It was a mixed bag with them.  The History Channel series (The Men Who Built America) is excellent.  That is the one time that unions and the government came together and did something right, to fight for the Rights of the worker.  But now both have become too Socialistic.  Corporations are no threat to a well educated consumer.  Money controls the corporations.  The consumer uses its power of choice to drive the market which controls the money.

I wonder if what you mean are not corporations but something like the Bavarian Illuminati?  Men who have gone beyond corporations??  Whether or not they exist, it’s clear that men like the Rothchilds do.  Perhaps the Bilderberg group is one?  And if that is the case, then Obama may be their puppet.  These are groups to which it doesn’t matter what the government type is.  The following controversial films help explain.  Corporations are only based on the greed of money.  These films talk about the raw unadulterated greed of power which finds a home in Totalitarianism or the Socialistic Democracy.  Its power is limited in a Constitutional Republic with no Federal Reserve.  That is why the Socialist Party of America has been hard at work trying to gut the Constitution.




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#68    lightly

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Posted 04 December 2012 - 12:36 AM

View PostRavenHawk, on 03 December 2012 - 07:18 PM, said:

Liberty is individual, not communal.      

     In anarchy.  .. otherwise you need to organize in some way to provide for shared,   or communal,   liberties .     That is the purported reason for our Republic,  in which,  the rule of law is servant, and master, of All ?

... I just said that the problem  is that  "our community is being ruled by the few"

In your reply:  "Socialism is still dependent on the rule of the one or the few.  The longer this goes on, the more power the ruling elite grabs from the people."

       We are describing the same  problem...  You are calling it "SOCIALISM!"   .. and i'm calling it    corruption,   basically.  




    

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#69    Gromdor

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Posted 04 December 2012 - 12:40 AM

View PostRavenHawk, on 03 December 2012 - 06:51 PM, said:

Actually, it is furthering my point and this is why.  Of course, a doctor wouldn't be conferring with his colleagues calling ibuprofen "Bayer" or even "aspirin", but as a pain killer.  Again, when speaking of Oligarchies, you won't call Nazism "Communism" but you would call it Authoritarian or perhaps Socialist, especially if the context has been identified as such, which it has.


Here you mixed Oligarchies, Nazism, Authoritarianism, and Socialism.

View PostRavenHawk, on 03 December 2012 - 06:51 PM, said:

You're still trying to argue semantics and definitions instead of understanding substance.  This gibberish is just another indicator.  I call a spade a spade and that seems to insult your sensibilities because you've spent much of your time convincing yourself that European Socialism is an equivalent to the American form of government when it is really just like any other authoritarian form.  Liberty is lost whether it be a Police State or coerced in the gilded gage of a Socialist Democracy.

You keep calling a club a spade and I never said anything America being a European Socialist country.  I just plainly said people keep using words, in this case socialism, incorrectly and expect people to take them seriously, when it fact it hurts their credibility.

Edited by Gromdor, 04 December 2012 - 12:41 AM.


#70    White Unicorn

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Posted 04 December 2012 - 01:19 AM

View Post-Mr_Fess-, on 01 December 2012 - 08:51 PM, said:

That's not entirely true. Republicans, conservatives, libertarians are not purely against entitlements. They're against handouts. They're against affirmative action which are entitlements simply for being alive. We believe in helping when in need, not giving just because. We believe in a hand up not a hand out. For those truly in need there should always be a way to obtain assistance courtesy of fellow tax payers. That's just what a good, modern, 1st world civilization does and can do. The arguement is that entitlements need reformed. Affirmative action needs to disappear. Labeling everybody into a "special group" is divisive and intentionally so. We should all just be Americans. Equal rights aren't equal rights when only certain people have access to those rights. If a black guy and a white guy with near identical circumstances apply for assistance chances are good that the black guy will get it and the white guy won't. It happened to a friend of mine and the clerk actually told him he'd have been approved if he weren't white. Outrageous! The black guy was never a slave and likely was never truly oppressed due to decades old civil rights laws. So why do we have to keep paying for the sins of the past to people who were never affected by it. Affirmative action sucks and the only "group" of people whom I would never complain about it going towards is native Americans and even then there has to be limits set at some point. People who pop out kids simply for a government check, that needs to end. Those types are a drain on society and a drain on the resources that those truly in need need. Multigenerational welfare families need to end. They too are a drain on everybody. People who go through 99 weeks of unemployment, which is also absurd and demotivational, and don't get a job and then find a way to get more government assistance had better have a damn good reason for doing so rather than just because they can. These types of things need reformed. Nobody wants to be rid of entitlements. It's just that if you don't need it then you aren't entitled to it. It must be purely circumstantial and within good reason. I believe that if you are between 18-65ish in general good health there is absolutely no reason to steal because if you're physically and mentally able and you are knowingly applying for benefits due to outright laziness and a warped sense if entitlement then you are stealing and I know there are circumstances when the Feds will catch you and make you pay it back but those incidences are far to few compared to the amount of waste they could be eliminating from the get go. It's about reform, not eliminating the program.

I agree with what you are saying here. We need to REFORM the waste and inequality in the current system. There are issues that once people get caught into a certain level they are trapped by the system and most get apethetic and just go for the handout. The middle aged unemployed including veterans who don't want to admit "disabilty " just to collect when they want to be working is frustrating.

We need a better unemployment system and job services! People who go beyond their unemployment should be offered some kind of a public service job and some form of training instead of just focusing on the more recently unemployed. The lengthy unemployeed just become too old for labor and less and less qualified as time goes on. When they go to job services for help someone says here's the computer go search the sites, that's no help for the older people who's companies don't exist or their supervisors have passed on-they have no meaningful referrences, job  or resume skills.
There should be somekind of a job match waiting list by unemployment time.

Edited by White Unicorn, 04 December 2012 - 01:21 AM.


#71    MiskatonicGrad

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Posted 04 December 2012 - 01:34 AM

View Postwith bells on, on 30 November 2012 - 11:11 PM, said:

its still propaganda.. regardless.. and is just a small point in how Americans have been brainwashed with the socialism issue.. the rest of the first world just doesnt understand this American socialism issue.. its complete brainwashing..

yes, i know Michael Moore is anti republicans.. smart guy!

Just to clear this up America was the first first world country and all other countries were rated on how we have it here in america. So we understand why the rest of the world sees no problem with slipping back to the whole ruling elite thing that comes with socialism. But, we in america threw off those shackles along time ago and weren't raised that way. So their are some of us(the number seems to be getting smaller) that has a problem with what the rest of the world thinks is O.K.. Our great experiment was not set up on the european model but on a whole new train of thought that doesn't mesh well with socialism. where a man can decide his own destiny and become a ruler despite questionable lineage and educational background.

Edited by MiskatonicGrad, 04 December 2012 - 01:35 AM.

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#72    F3SS

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Posted 04 December 2012 - 01:38 AM

View PostWhite Unicorn, on 04 December 2012 - 01:19 AM, said:



I agree with what you are saying here. We need to REFORM the waste and inequality in the current system. There are issues that once people get caught into a certain level they are trapped by the system and most get apethetic and just go for the handout. The middle aged unemployed including veterans who don't want to admit "disabilty " just to collect when they want to be working is frustrating.

We need a better unemployment system and job services! People who go beyond their unemployment should be offered some kind of a public service job and some form of training instead of just focusing on the more recently unemployed. The lengthy unemployeed just become too old for labor and less and less qualified as time goes on. When they go to job services for help someone says here's the computer go search the sites, that's no help for the older people who's companies don't exist or their supervisors have passed on-they have no meaningful referrences, job  or resume skills.
There should be somekind of a job match waiting list by unemployment time.

I like that. Maybe a list of volunteering options. You either pick one or don't pass go. Go back to Mediterranean Avenue and roll the dice again.

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#73    MiskatonicGrad

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Posted 04 December 2012 - 01:51 AM

View PostWhite Unicorn, on 04 December 2012 - 01:19 AM, said:

I agree with what you are saying here. We need to REFORM the waste and inequality in the current system. There are issues that once people get caught into a certain level they are trapped by the system and most get apethetic and just go for the handout. The middle aged unemployed including veterans who don't want to admit "disabilty " just to collect when they want to be working is frustrating.

We need a better unemployment system and job services! People who go beyond their unemployment should be offered some kind of a public service job and some form of training instead of just focusing on the more recently unemployed. The lengthy unemployeed just become too old for labor and less and less qualified as time goes on. When they go to job services for help someone says here's the computer go search the sites, that's no help for the older people who's companies don't exist or their supervisors have passed on-they have no meaningful referrences, job  or resume skills.
There should be somekind of a job match waiting list by unemployment time.

the problem imho. with the unemployment system is the don't seem to be motivated to get people employed. what is the insentive if you have alot of people in your area unemployed they just cry for more funding. I have never found a job through an unemployment office( or workforce center in my area) if everyone in america had a job where wouild that leave them?

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#74    White Unicorn

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Posted 04 December 2012 - 02:16 AM

View Post-Mr_Fess-, on 04 December 2012 - 01:38 AM, said:

I like that. Maybe a list of volunteering options. You either pick one or don't pass go. Go back to Mediterranean Avenue and roll the dice again.

Volunteer jobs are becoming popular even in the corporate world but when you're to the point you can't put food on the table or gas in the tank to get there, you can't even do them for the experience, These people end up on assistance or worse.  There needs to be a paycheck or even food and gas assistance involved coming from somewhere to help them get by that first crucial point to change their marketability in the job force. It's a complex situation but can be done.  I always wondered  what happened to all the old "workfare not welfare" plans. Ones that I know of were based only on grants which ended with the councilors being let go when the grants ran out.  Cheaper to pay SSI and SNAP I guess. Politicians seem to just look at short term range instead of the effects long term.


#75    White Unicorn

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Posted 04 December 2012 - 02:39 AM

View PostMiskatonicGrad, on 04 December 2012 - 01:51 AM, said:

the problem imho. with the unemployment system is the don't seem to be motivated to get people employed. what is the insentive if you have alot of people in your area unemployed they just cry for more funding. I have never found a job through an unemployment office( or workforce center in my area) if everyone in america had a job where wouild that leave them?

I agree they need to be more motivated in finding people jobs. If everyone was becoming employed it would still leave them with the transitional unemployed and paperwork for unemployment benefits.  It seems like that's all they do now is qualify people for their unemployment insurance...and a lot of those short term unemployed like applying for jobs they won't get in order to collect more than they would working and some of them even work under the table at the same time!  Makes me disgusted when there are long term unemployed with no unemployment benefits not getting help to find a job!





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