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Provocative clothing invites attacks?


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#361    The Sky Scanner

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Posted 07 January 2013 - 11:47 AM

View PostYamato, on 07 January 2013 - 11:14 AM, said:

If it CAN happen because of something, then it IS more likely with that something, yes.  I would think there's a specious relationship between clothing and rape at best.  And that's not the point or the counter.

Promiscuous/provocative clothing causes a sexual response, not rape.  A sexual response is necessary with rape.  Rape occurs when the answer to that sexual response becomes NO.   The point is that evoking cavalier sexual behavior causes unwanted pregnancy, sexually transmitted disease, abortions, more taxpayer welfare, broken marriages, foster children, and death.   In light of all that, there won't be any double standards for rape worth holding onto.   I don't care about ancient history or some feminist vendetta to make up for thousands of years of bias between the genders.  I care about how many cases of each of these deplorable conditions our society suffers from.

I can see where we differ here, and it's in this line:

Quote

Promiscuous/provocative clothing causes a sexual response, not rape.

Agreed.

Quote

A sexual response is necessary with rape.

Agreed. But it isn't necessarily the case that the sexual response comes from how the women looks - for some it is just the case of controlling someone, seeing the fear in their eyes that causes the sexual response...so what they wear isn't the issue, the rapists view of women is the issue.

Quote

Rape occurs when the answer to that sexual response becomes NO

No doubt that is true in some cases, for many I doubt they even get asked the question to begin with.

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#362    Yes_Man

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Posted 07 January 2013 - 11:50 AM

i think this topic is slowly changing topic


#363    The Sky Scanner

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Posted 07 January 2013 - 12:00 PM

Well I can't see this debate going anywhere, other then around in circles, so i'll bow out but come back if any reliable data linking clothing to rape comes to light.

"Equipped with his five senses, man explores the universe around him and calls the adventure Science". ~ Edwin Powell Hubble

#364    Yamato

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Posted 07 January 2013 - 12:02 PM

View PostSky Scanner, on 07 January 2013 - 11:41 AM, said:

You are missing the point of why your comparison isn't sound. Put it this way: have you seen many rapists congratulate the victim afterwards on putting up a good fight, shake their hand and wish them well for the future? Of course not, the motivation behind rape is violence and control, for the purpose of subjecting someone to something they haven't consented too. Most fighters respect each other, they understand fear and what it takes to step into that ring, their purpose there isn't primarily to humiliate and subject someone to something for the kick of degrading them, it is to win the fight and not get hurt themselves.

Violence against an unwilling victim and violence against a willing opponent are not even in the same ball park, let alone the same discussion about rape.
Finding differences doesn't nullify a comparison.  A sound comparison doesn't need to be equivalent or invulnerable to differences.   It was based on libstaK's rhetoric, not yours.  I can paint fighting and rape up completely different with all kinds of different words and colors, and do an even better job than that.  Because they are completely different.   The motivation behind rape is violence and control, two central elements found in MMA.   It's unfortunate that libstaK stripped rape of sex and gave it traits of a cage fight.   If you don't think that violence and control are central to MMA, I'm not sure what to tell you.  

The definition of rape is in the dictionary.  The causes of rape are in the encyclopedia.   Let's not get lost in the rhetoric to miss the point here.   Without a sexual response there is no sexual intercourse; therefore jailing the discussion with rhetoric describing rape like an MMA fight was inadequate.

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#365    Yamato

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Posted 07 January 2013 - 12:05 PM

View PostSky Scanner, on 07 January 2013 - 11:47 AM, said:

I can see where we differ here, and it's in this line:



Agreed.



Agreed. But it isn't necessarily the case that the sexual response comes from how the women looks - for some it is just the case of controlling someone, seeing the fear in their eyes that causes the sexual response...so what they wear isn't the issue, the rapists view of women is the issue.



No doubt that is true in some cases, for many I doubt they even get asked the question to begin with.
I don't think my position needs to "necessarily be the case" to have merit.  Some cases, are cases.

It doesn't matter if they're asked or not either.  No means no.

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#366    Yamato

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Posted 07 January 2013 - 12:13 PM

View PostSky Scanner, on 07 January 2013 - 12:00 PM, said:

Well I can't see this debate going anywhere, other then around in circles, so i'll bow out but come back if any reliable data linking clothing to rape comes to light.
This is the hottest discussion on this board right now.   I'm sorry you don't see it going anywhere, but why not?  Because I just asked to expand the discussion to include the causes of rape?   Because the data out there on this won't be reliable if it doesn't agree with what you've said so far?   I think it's because some of us don't want to admit that causes of rape include individual factors, the same as any other crime.   Clothing, notwithstanding.

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#367    The Sky Scanner

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Posted 07 January 2013 - 12:35 PM

I do like the way you talk about wanting to discuss the motivations behind rape, yet when your badly thought out comparisons between MMA and rape are highlighted you try to change the flow by saying "lets not get lost in rhetoric"...very cute. But we want to understand motivation don't we?, so yeah, lets get lost in rhetoric just so we don't go down the false road of the comparisons you made. Also, libstaK never made the comparison to MMA, you did, just because MMA uses violence doesn't mean that rape is being crow barred into an MMA comparison by anyone else but you.

This was how the conversation went:

View PostlibstaK, on 07 January 2013 - 12:03 AM, said:

The attraction is for control and subjugation of another human being, it is enjoyment in the pain and suffering of others.

View PostYamato, on 07 January 2013 - 05:37 AM, said:

Speaking of control and subjugation of another human being, I've seen a lot of MMA cage fights but I've never seen a guy sporting a huge erection in the middle of combat.   Stop trying to strip the sex out of the rape.  I know doing that is necessary to make these claims, but you can't have one without the other.   You can't have rape without the sex.

Even if rape was just vanilla assault, there's many common sense ways of avoiding assault.  If you're a vulnerable and attractive woman, not drawing unwanted attention to your body makes sense.   When I go out in cracked sneakers and a t-shirt, women judge me, and I'm not going to play like they have no right to do so.   People get judged for the way they dress every day they leave their house; it happens whether sex has something to do with it or not.  

Sex in general, and sexual crimes more specifically, shouldn't be made into this double standard we can't apply to any other crime, particularly in light of how many societal problems sex is required to create.

You have compared two forms of violence to ask why a MMA fighter doesn't get sexually aroused when using violence on another, as rape is about control and violence. The differences were pointed out, but you say below it doesn't nullify the comparison:

View PostYamato, on 07 January 2013 - 12:02 PM, said:

Finding differences doesn't nullify a comparison.  A sound comparison doesn't need to be equivalent or invulnerable to differences.   It was based on libstaK's rhetoric, not yours.  I can paint fighting and rape up completely different with all kinds of different words and colors, and do an even better job than that.  Because they are completely different.   The motivation behind rape is violence and control, two central elements found in MMA.   It's unfortunate that libstaK stripped rape of sex and gave it traits of a cage fight.   If you don't think that violence and control are central to MMA, I'm not sure what to tell you.  

The definition of rape is in the dictionary.  The causes of rape are in the encyclopedia.   Let's not get lost in the rhetoric to miss the point here.   Without a sexual response there is no sexual intercourse; therefore jailing the discussion with rhetoric describing rape like an MMA fight was inadequate.

How is the difference not nullified if the motivation is different. A rapist uses control and violence with the end product being rape and degradation of an individual. A cage fighter uses preservation and violence to reach the end goal of winning a fight, the issue isn't about controlling for the sake of humiliating, merely winning in the easiest way possible. There is no sexual response by a cage fighter because violence isn't used for the same purpose.

All violence has a different motivating factor attached to it...whether you are fighting for your life in a street fight, or in a cage. As the motivations are different it isn't comparable to say that as a rapists gets a sexual response from what they put a victim through, why doesn't someone fighting for a title etc...

If you want to understand the reasons behind many rapes, concentrate on why so many rapists have a deep seated hatred of women....therefore putting them through horrific ordeals arouses them. Most fighters don't have a deep seated hatred of the sex they are fighting, therefore, no arousal.....i'm amazed that differing motivating factors of violence needs pointing out :unsure2:

Edited by Sky Scanner, 07 January 2013 - 12:36 PM.

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#368    joc

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Posted 07 January 2013 - 12:36 PM

View PostYamato, on 07 January 2013 - 12:13 PM, said:

This is the hottest discussion on this board right now.   I'm sorry you don't see it going anywhere, but why not?  Because I just asked to expand the discussion to include the causes of rape?   Because the data out there on this won't be reliable if it doesn't agree with what you've said so far?   I think it's because some of us don't want to admit that causes of rape include individual factors, the same as any other crime.   Clothing, notwithstanding.
This is not the hottest discussion on the board.  It is the 'stupidest'.  You want to expand the discussion to include causes of rape because you have been fighting a losing battle from the start.   This thread doesn't even have anything to do with rape anymore...it has to do with your personal vendetta against how other people choose to live their lives...from dressing provocatively to having promiscuous sex.  It's none of your business how someone dresses or how many sexual partners they have.  Rape is a crime of violence...and I personally don't care WHY a rapist rapes a woman...we don't need to 'study' their mind.  We need to punish them harshly.  You go on and on about societal ills but you never see that you are part of the problem.   Expand the discussion to the 'causes' of rape?  I.E.  What is going on in the head of the rapist.  I for one have no desire to even read any more of your 'hottest' discussion.

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#369    The Sky Scanner

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Posted 07 January 2013 - 12:40 PM

View PostYamato, on 07 January 2013 - 12:05 PM, said:

I don't think my position needs to "necessarily be the case" to have merit.  Some cases, are cases.

It doesn't matter if they're asked or not either.  No means no.

Well if you are advising women on how to dress (for the reasons you've given), then it needs to be backed up by more then just your opinion about rape (if it's to mean anything that is).

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#370    The Sky Scanner

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Posted 07 January 2013 - 12:41 PM

View Postjoc, on 07 January 2013 - 12:36 PM, said:

This is not the hottest discussion on the board.  It is the 'stupidest'.  You want to expand the discussion to include causes of rape because you have been fighting a losing battle from the start.   This thread doesn't even have anything to do with rape anymore...it has to do with your personal vendetta against how other people choose to live their lives...from dressing provocatively to having promiscuous sex.  It's none of your business how someone dresses or how many sexual partners they have.  Rape is a crime of violence...and I personally don't care WHY a rapist rapes a woman...we don't need to 'study' their mind.  We need to punish them harshly.  You go on and on about societal ills but you never see that you are part of the problem.   Expand the discussion to the 'causes' of rape?  I.E.  What is going on in the head of the rapist.  I for one have no desire to even read any more of your 'hottest' discussion.

Bingo! Post of the day!

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#371    Yamato

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Posted 07 January 2013 - 12:50 PM

View Postjoc, on 07 January 2013 - 12:36 PM, said:

This is not the hottest discussion on the board.  It is the 'stupidest'.  You want to expand the discussion to include causes of rape because you have been fighting a losing battle from the start.   This thread doesn't even have anything to do with rape anymore...it has to do with your personal vendetta against how other people choose to live their lives...from dressing provocatively to having promiscuous sex.  It's none of your business how someone dresses or how many sexual partners they have.  Rape is a crime of violence...and I personally don't care WHY a rapist rapes a woman...we don't need to 'study' their mind.  We need to punish them harshly.  You go on and on about societal ills but you never see that you are part of the problem.   Expand the discussion to the 'causes' of rape?  I.E.  What is going on in the head of the rapist.  I for one have no desire to even read any more of your 'hottest' discussion.
Now you can't even handle discussing the causes of rape without putting it in quotes?   If you don't want to discuss this, go find something you want to discuss and discuss that.

The stupidest?   I think rape is what's stupid.  Unwanted pregnancy is what's stupid.  Broken families are what's stupid.   Barely-wanted kids being lousily raised by single mothers is what's stupid.  Washington DC welfare is what's stupid.  Abortion is what's stupid.  Spreading STDs is what's stupid.   The refusal to have responsibility for your one's own behavior is what's stupid.  

Pretty amazing I have to tell a Republican this, although unlike the garden variety Republican, I would never suggest using federal power to impose my ideas on anyone.   But being too sensitive to freely discuss this on a message board without getting personal?   That's pretty sad.

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#372    Yamato

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Posted 07 January 2013 - 12:52 PM

View PostSky Scanner, on 07 January 2013 - 12:40 PM, said:

Well if you are advising women on how to dress (for the reasons you've given), then it needs to be backed up by more then just your opinion about rape (if it's to mean anything that is).
And the study we just visited is not my opinion, it's the opinion of the study.  And it's evidence.

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#373    Yamato

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Posted 07 January 2013 - 01:01 PM

View PostSky Scanner, on 07 January 2013 - 12:35 PM, said:

I do like the way you talk about wanting to discuss the motivations behind rape, yet when your badly thought out comparisons between MMA and rape are highlighted you try to change the flow by saying "lets not get lost in rhetoric"...very cute. But we want to understand motivation don't we?, so yeah, lets get lost in rhetoric just so we don't go down the false road of the comparisons you made. Also, libstaK never made the comparison to MMA, you did, just because MMA uses violence doesn't mean that rape is being crow barred into an MMA comparison by anyone else but you.

This was how the conversation went:





You have compared two forms of violence to ask why a MMA fighter doesn't get sexually aroused when using violence on another, as rape is about control and violence. The differences were pointed out, but you say below it doesn't nullify the comparison:



How is the difference not nullified if the motivation is different. A rapist uses control and violence with the end product being rape and degradation of an individual. A cage fighter uses preservation and violence to reach the end goal of winning a fight, the issue isn't about controlling for the sake of humiliating, merely winning in the easiest way possible. There is no sexual response by a cage fighter because violence isn't used for the same purpose.

All violence has a different motivating factor attached to it...whether you are fighting for your life in a street fight, or in a cage. As the motivations are different it isn't comparable to say that as a rapists gets a sexual response from what they put a victim through, why doesn't someone fighting for a title etc...

If you want to understand the reasons behind many rapes, concentrate on why so many rapists have a deep seated hatred of women....therefore putting them through horrific ordeals arouses them. Most fighters don't have a deep seated hatred of the sex they are fighting, therefore, no arousal.....i'm amazed that differing motivating factors of violence needs pointing out :unsure2:
Well if you are advising me about most fighters, then it needs to be backed up by more then just your opinion.   As I said, fighting and rape are completely different, therefore dressing rape up to sound like an MMA fight was inaccurate.   You think you're disagreeing with me here but you're not.   The arousal of rape is indeed completely different; violent sexual intercourse is entirely different from an MMA cage fight, thank you for unwittingly agreeing with my position once again.  We know all of this, therefore we don't constrain our rhetorical description posing as a definition of rape in a way that can just as well describe an MMA fight.

The end result is rape.  That is correct, sir.   And do you understand that rape is sexual intercourse?   Thus it's a ridiculous idea to strip the sex from the rape when that's what rape is.   Denying the crime is the most effective way to create more of it I've heard yet.

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#374    The Sky Scanner

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Posted 07 January 2013 - 01:08 PM

View PostYamato, on 07 January 2013 - 01:01 PM, said:

Well if you are advising me about most fighters, then it needs to be backed up by more then just your opinion.   As I said, fighting and rape are completely different, therefore dressing rape up to sound like an MMA fight was inaccurate.   You think you're disagreeing with me here but you're not.   The arousal of rape is indeed completely different; violent sexual intercourse is entirely different from an MMA cage fight, thank you for unwittingly agreeing with my position once again.  We know all of this, therefore we don't constrain our rhetorical description posing as a definition of rape in a way that can just as well describe an MMA fight.

The end result is rape.  That is correct, sir.   And do you understand that rape is sexual intercourse?   Thus it's a ridiculous idea to strip the sex from the rape when that's what rape is.   Denying the crime is the most effective way to create more of it I've heard yet.

As has been pointed out numerous times, no one dressed it up like an MMA fight - it was only you that thought it sounded the same, that is your problem though, nothing to do with the discussion about rape.

Is there anything else worth discussing? it's just i'm not really into explaining things again and again to the same person, so if anything new comes to light, let me know :tu:

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#375    Mr Right Wing

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Posted 07 January 2013 - 01:11 PM

View Postjoc, on 07 January 2013 - 12:36 PM, said:

This is not the hottest discussion on the board.  It is the 'stupidest'.  You want to expand the discussion to include causes of rape because you have been fighting a losing battle from the start.   This thread doesn't even have anything to do with rape anymore...it has to do with your personal vendetta against how other people choose to live their lives...from dressing provocatively to having promiscuous sex.  It's none of your business how someone dresses or how many sexual partners they have.  Rape is a crime of violence...and I personally don't care WHY a rapist rapes a woman...we don't need to 'study' their mind.  We need to punish them harshly.  You go on and on about societal ills but you never see that you are part of the problem.   Expand the discussion to the 'causes' of rape?  I.E.  What is going on in the head of the rapist.  I for one have no desire to even read any more of your 'hottest' discussion.

We do need to study their minds -
1. A parent not teaching a child proper boundaries or a child who struggles with them because of learning difficulties is at high risk of criminal activity as an adult. Someone with no boundaries thinks its acceptable to do what they desire from bullying to theft and from violance to rape.
2. A child who is sexually abused by its parents has a high chance of becoming an adult with sexual perversions and deviancies. This can include rape.
3. The rapist chooses their victim to take their issues out on. Its likely to be someone they perceive as perfect as they resent them for not having the same issues as they do.





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