33 replies to this topic

[chiole]

libstaK, on 18 April 2012 - 02:01 PM, said:

Hi Chiole,
I am actually a believer but I think I can add some food for thought to your suggestion to Leonardo.

The fact is - people should not choose to believe in God just in case he happens to be there when they die to judge them.  Religions sell this idea to people every day and I think it is wrong to appeal to people's fear.  The people who may be converted to "believe" in God are really only doing what they believe they can to stop being afraid of death - that is not the same as TRULY believing in God.

Now, if you do not believe in God and you die and discover there is a God - well, let's give him/her a little bit of credit - a God, by definition knows far more about what goes on in our hearts and minds than we do and I for one would trust him to recognise a sincere person who believed only what his conscience and evidence allowed him to believe - I don't think it is relevant to think a non-believer would be punished for not knowing any better - this is not a popular position amongst believers but I personally stand firmly by it.

In summary - a person who believes in God because they are afraid of punishment from God if they fail to believe is someone who believes in self preservation at all costs only - it is not a belief in God at all, it is fear hiding as belief.

As I said, those are just my opinions and offered as food for thought.

Hi
Yes I do agree with you that by definition a God knows far more and I do believe that God does know everything. I do however believe that you are incorrect in stating that he will recognise the person who's conscience and evidence allowed him to believe.  I believe that every single person on this earth was born with the already imprinted map to what is right and what is wrong, we've known this since birth (that is why the tree that Adam and Eve ate from was called the Tree Of KNOWLEDGE OF GOOD AND EVIL, if they did not eat from it, we would not have had this knowledge, the knowledge of good and evil has already been with us for millions of years).  Remember when you were small and you did something wrong, you knew that it was wrong even before you were told that it was.  All humans have been born with this imprint.  I firmly believe that the person who says that he did not know that he was wrong is lying and that to me is self preservation of which I also believe all humans where born with.

To your second answer - I do believe that you should fear God's punishment. You feared (and by that I mean, you feared getting a hiding because you did something wrong) but you also loved your own father.  I believe it is the same with our Heavenly Father and no, it is not selling that to the non-believer, I do believe that to be fact and to that I stand firm in my belief that God should be feared, that is why He is God.

But then again, it might be only me that believe this, and that is my opinion.

Edited by chiole, 19 April 2012 - 07:36 AM.

[Rlyeh]

chiole, on 19 April 2012 - 07:33 AM, said:

Remember when you were small and you did something wrong, you knew that it was wrong even before you were told that it was.  All humans have been born with this imprint.  I firmly believe that the person who says that he did not know that he was wrong is lying and that to me is self preservation of which I also believe all humans where born with.

Wrong like working on the sabbath?

[libstaK]

chiole, on 19 April 2012 - 07:33 AM, said:

Hi
Yes I do agree with you that by definition a God knows far more and I do believe that God does know everything. I do however believe that you are incorrect in stating that he will recognise the person who's conscience and evidence allowed him to believe.  I believe that every single person on this earth was born with the already imprinted map to what is right and what is wrong, we've known this since birth (that is why the tree that Adam and Eve ate from was called the Tree Of KNOWLEDGE OF GOOD AND EVIL, if they did not eat from it, we would not have had this knowledge, the knowledge of good and evil has already been with us for millions of years).

Knowledge of Good and Evil is not the same as knowledge that there is a God.  Atheists act with conscience and are just as instinctually empathic to the needs of others and what is correct behaviour.  This does not truly inform a non-believer of the existence of God, it only informs us that humanity has the capacity to comprehend Good and Evil.  A non believer will not agree that this knowledge came from eating of that fruit.  BTW that was original sin, so it is a bane not a gift and an opportunity to create distance for God, not unity by it's very nature.

Quote

  Remember when you were small and you did something wrong, you knew that it was wrong even before you were told that it was.  All humans have been born with this imprint.  I firmly believe that the person who says that he did not know that he was wrong is lying and that to me is self preservation of which I also believe all humans where born with.

That is a little simplistic.  Sure we all know basic right and wrong, HOWEVER, there are nuances and subtle errors we all make without comprehension that we are causing harm, it is not so black and white.  For instance, as adults we are masters of the spoken word.  Words have power and can cause harm.  When we are angry or judgemental, we use our words as weapons.  We believe we are right to do so, that the recipient deserves to hear what we think.  We do not consider the emotional harm our words can cause others because we believe we are right - in this way alot of harm can be done without any action but the spoken word alone.  

If people all KNOW right and wrong, then why do people say things that hurt others? Bullying, prejudices, ignorances, political and religious differences where the opposing party is evil and we are in the right, all these are examples of where our knowledge of right and wrong fails us utterly, because we fail to see ourselves in the other person. BUT nobody will gainsay us in our own communities, we may even be patted on the back in many instances and told we are right - we may be held up as heroes.  Yet the fact remains that our words caused a disunity and emotional harm to another, so you see, not at all simple. Even the worst dictators had huge fan bases who thought their leader was the holiest and best.

Quote

To your second answer - I do believe that you should fear God's punishment. You feared (and by that I mean, you feared getting a hiding because you did something wrong) but you also loved your own father.  I believe it is the same with our Heavenly Father and no, it is not selling that to the non-believer, I do believe that to be fact and to that I stand firm in my belief that God should be feared, that is why He is God.

But then again, it might be only me that believe this, and that is my opinion.

You have to believe first to comprehend such a fear, if you do not believe in God you will not have that fear.  However, what you were suggesting is that a non-believer should consider believing just in case they face a judgement in the afterlife - if they are only believing to avoid punishment they are simply fearful people, not people who know there is a God, rather people who are afraid of the possibility of a God - there is no wisdom or comprehension of the nature of ourselves and our relationship to God in that position IMO.

Edited by libstaK, 19 April 2012 - 03:53 PM.

[libstaK]

ColoradoParanormal, on 17 April 2012 - 04:10 PM, said:

I very much agree with you. I strongly hope western scientists and medical personnel test this fraud and reveal him for what he is. This "healing" gift has been claimed through-out recent history and the minute scientists request to validate and evaluate these "healers" they deny them and disappear. Why would this be? You would think, if you're truly a healer, and your purpose in life is to help humanity as they claim, that you would be more than happy to oblige science and help the world receive an understanding of this so we might further help all of man kind...

This simply isn't the case with these frauds....

Yes CP exactly, they hide behind the "mystery" of faith as their reasons, I don't buy it.

The healer himself may hide but those that are providing testamonies that they are being healed number in the thousands and their illnesses are medically diagnosed and supposedly cured - where are their medical reports and all the doctors who must surely be flabbergasted at these miraculous events occurring in their "thousands"?  This should already be an enormous scientific mystery just from that fallout on that level - but it's not, and that is very telling.

[ValkyrieVoice]

I believe God can use anyone right where they are in life.

[and then]

chiole, on 19 April 2012 - 07:33 AM, said:

Hi
Yes I do agree with you that by definition a God knows far more and I do believe that God does know everything. I do however believe that you are incorrect in stating that he will recognise the person who's conscience and evidence allowed him to believe.  I believe that every single person on this earth was born with the already imprinted map to what is right and what is wrong, we've known this since birth (that is why the tree that Adam and Eve ate from was called the Tree Of KNOWLEDGE OF GOOD AND EVIL, if they did not eat from it, we would not have had this knowledge, the knowledge of good and evil has already been with us for millions of years).  Remember when you were small and you did something wrong, you knew that it was wrong even before you were told that it was.  All humans have been born with this imprint.  I firmly believe that the person who says that he did not know that he was wrong is lying and that to me is self preservation of which I also believe all humans where born with.

To your second answer - I do believe that you should fear God's punishment. You feared (and by that I mean, you feared getting a hiding because you did something wrong) but you also loved your own father.  I believe it is the same with our Heavenly Father and no, it is not selling that to the non-believer, I do believe that to be fact and to that I stand firm in my belief that God should be feared, that is why He is God.

But then again, it might be only me that believe this, and that is my opinion.

chiole, on 19 April 2012 - 07:33 AM, said:

Hi
Yes I do agree with you that by definition a God knows far more and I do believe that God does know everything. I do however believe that you are incorrect in stating that he will recognise the person who's conscience and evidence allowed him to believe.  I believe that every single person on this earth was born with the already imprinted map to what is right and what is wrong, we've known this since birth (that is why the tree that Adam and Eve ate from was called the Tree Of KNOWLEDGE OF GOOD AND EVIL, if they did not eat from it, we would not have had this knowledge, the knowledge of good and evil has already been with us for millions of years).  Remember when you were small and you did something wrong, you knew that it was wrong even before you were told that it was.  All humans have been born with this imprint.  I firmly believe that the person who says that he did not know that he was wrong is lying and that to me is self preservation of which I also believe all humans where born with.

To your second answer - I do believe that you should fear God's punishment. You feared (and by that I mean, you feared getting a hiding because you did something wrong) but you also loved your own father.  I believe it is the same with our Heavenly Father and no, it is not selling that to the non-believer, I do believe that to be fact and to that I stand firm in my belief that God should be feared, that is why He is God.

But then again, it might be only me that believe this, and that is my opinion.

Welcome chiole...there are a few of us here who know that "fear of God" is synonymous with respecting His deity and holiness.  Others are slow coming to those conclusions but are honest in their beliefs    Stay awhile and you'll see REAL fireworks over religious views

[B Jenkins]

Rlyeh, on 19 April 2012 - 12:48 PM, said:

Wrong like working on the sabbath?

Why? Because it displays a complete lack of faith and respect towards God and His promises of abundant blessings.

[Toadie]

Has anyone read the God delusion?

[B Jenkins]

Toadie, on 12 May 2012 - 06:25 AM, said:

Has anyone read the God delusion?

I'll never read a book from this celebrated atheist whose is seeing nothing but green and laughing maniacally to the bank.

[Toadie]

Well I find it interesting.

Are you one of those people who refuse to look outside the box?

Edited by Toadie, 12 May 2012 - 06:41 AM.

[B Jenkins]

Toadie, on 12 May 2012 - 06:40 AM, said:

Well I find it interesting

Look at him... loook at him. He is laughing... maniacally.

[Toadie]

What is your problem with him making money from the books?

Do you read any books besides the Bible?

Edited by Toadie, 12 May 2012 - 06:44 AM.

[B Jenkins]

Toadie, on 12 May 2012 - 06:43 AM, said:

What is your problem with him making money from the books?

Do you read any books besides the Bible?

Of course I have, I became a Christian in the 90s. Before that I was a 2nd generation heathen.

[Toadie]

What is the best book you have read?

[B Jenkins]

Toadie, on 12 May 2012 - 07:00 AM, said:

What is the best book you have read?

That is too tough. It all about what mood I am in and what genre I prefer at the moment. Used to read horror and sci-fiction exclusively as a teen with a smattering of fantasy. Then I moved on to more literary works and non-fiction.

I do love 1984 and at one time was my favorite book because I believe it was quite prescient to the snooping government we suffer today. I dont have an exclusive favorite really.