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Oera Linda Book and the Great Flood [Part 2]


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#1921    Otharus

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Posted 13 November 2012 - 08:20 AM

The "run"-script has always been considered as typical 19th century, but this is not at all evident.

Specially the F is not like any Dutch handwriting I have ever seen.
It actually looks more like a Greek Phi.

For some letters it is obvious that they look like the Greek version, for example, K, U and T.

But if you have a better look at the L, you can see how it may have evolved (through the 'run'-version) into the Greek Lambda.


Posted Image

So:

Jol-F => run-F => Greek F
Jol-L => run-L => Greek L

This trick does not apply  for all letters, but that it does for some of them is, at least, remarkable.

===

Edit: after I posted I noticed that the Greek L is a mirrored version of the L that I made, based on the run-L (which is like the traditional capital L).

I may be slightly dyslectic after all...

Edited by Otharus, 13 November 2012 - 08:26 AM.


#1922    Abramelin

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Posted 13 November 2012 - 11:12 AM

View PostOtharus, on 12 November 2012 - 10:01 PM, said:

Reconstruction of words in RUN-script OLB (from page 46).

Posted Image

God, that must have been a lot of work, all that copy and paste, lol !


#1923    Abramelin

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Posted 13 November 2012 - 11:21 AM

Hja tham thêr saton vppa êlanda wrdon Lêtne hêten, thrvchdam hja mêst al vrlêten lêvadon.
Alle strând aend skor hêmar fon-a Dênemarka alont thêre Saendfal nw Skelda wrdon Stjurar, Sêkaempar aend Angelara hêton.
Angelara sâ hêton mân to fora tha butafiskar vmbe that hja alan mith angel jefta kol fiskton aend nimmer nên netum.
Thêra thêr thâna til tha hêinde Krêkalânda sâton, wrdon blât Kâd-hêmar hêten, thrvch tham hja ninmerthe buta foron.


(Sandbach's translation, but improved by me: )
Those who were 'seated' on islands were called Lêtne, because they lived an isolated life.
All those who had their homes on beaches and shores between Denmark and the Sandval, now the Scheldt, were called Stiurar, Sêkaempar, and Angelara.
The Angelara were men heretofor called the Butafiskar* because they only fished with hooks or kol ** and never nets'.
From there to the near Krekalands the inhabitants were merely@ called Kadhemers ("Kâd-hêmar"), because they never fared outside***.


* buta = here: without (nets)
** kol: fish gear to catch cod, consisting of a long line that is provided with angle and plummet.
http://gtb.inl.nl/iW...=WNT&id=M034627
*** buta - here: outside (DU: 'buiten')
For 'buta':
http://www.koeblerge...ch/afries-B.pdf
@ blât = here: merely


And now compare with Sandbach's translation:

Those who lived in the islands were called Letten, because they lived an isolated life.
All those who lived between Denmark and the Sandval, now the Scheldt, were called Stuurlieden (pilots), Zeekampers (naval men), and Angelaren (fishermen).
The Angelaren were men who fished in the sea, and were so named because they used lines and hooks instead of nets.
From there to the nearest part of Krekaland the inhabitants were called Kadhemers, because they never went to sea but remained ashore.

http://oeralinda.angelfire.com/#au


Most consider the near Krekalands to be Italy. That would mean that the Kadhemar lived between the North Sea and Italy, so how could they have been Phoenicians (who were famous as sailors, btw) ; it also has nothing to do with anything Crete in the quote above:

Kadhemers, The inhabitants of the north part of Crete who never went to sea. A dweller near the coast. A Phoenician.
Kadmus, A legendary Phoenician who is traditionally credited with bringing the alphabet to Greece.


http://earth-history...ra-glossary.htm


The "Kâd-hêmar" have been discused before:
http://www.unexplain...65#entry4041957


(I should add that later on - the story of Nep Tunis in the Med http://oeralinda.angelfire.com/#ax - kâd-hêmar is simply translated as 'inhabitants on the coast', but still nothing to do with Phoenicians)

.

Edited by Abramelin, 13 November 2012 - 11:50 AM.


#1924    Abramelin

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Posted 13 November 2012 - 12:29 PM

View PostOtharus, on 13 November 2012 - 08:20 AM, said:

The "run"-script has always been considered as typical 19th century, but this is not at all evident.

Specially the F is not like any Dutch handwriting I have ever seen.
It actually looks more like a Greek Phi.

For some letters it is obvious that they look like the Greek version, for example, K, U and T.

But if you have a better look at the L, you can see how it may have evolved (through the 'run'-version) into the Greek Lambda.


Posted Image

So:

Jol-F => run-F => Greek F
Jol-L => run-L => Greek L

This trick does not apply  for all letters, but that it does for some of them is, at least, remarkable.

===

Edit: after I posted I noticed that the Greek L is a mirrored version of the L that I made, based on the run-L (which is like the traditional capital L).

I may be slightly dyslectic after all...

Because of the crease in the paper, part of the letter -F- is hidden, but you can still see something extra:

Posted Image

And it is not a dot/period separating the letters because that one is clearly visible on the right.

+++++


EDIT:

Classic Decorated Baroque Vector Letter Calligraphy F :


http://www.spiderpic...-cat-calligramm

.


.

Edited by Abramelin, 13 November 2012 - 12:40 PM.


#1925    Abramelin

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Posted 13 November 2012 - 01:07 PM

View PostAbramelin, on 13 November 2012 - 11:21 AM, said:

Hja tham thêr saton vppa êlanda wrdon Lêtne hêten, thrvchdam hja mêst al vrlêten lêvadon.
Alle strând aend skor hêmar fon-a Dênemarka alont thêre Saendfal nw Skelda wrdon Stjurar, Sêkaempar aend Angelara hêton.
Angelara sâ hêton mân to fora tha butafiskar vmbe that hja alan mith angel jefta kol fiskton aend nimmer nên netum.
Thêra thêr thâna til tha hêinde Krêkalânda sâton, wrdon blât Kâd-hêmar hêten, thrvch tham hja ninmerthe buta foron.


(Sandbach's translation, but improved by me: )
Those who were 'seated' on islands were called Lêtne, because they lived an isolated life.
All those who had their homes on beaches and shores between Denmark and the Sandval, now the Scheldt, were called Stiurar, Sêkaempar, and Angelara.
The Angelara were men heretofor called the Butafiskar* because they only fished with hooks or kol ** and never nets'.
From there to the near Krekalands the inhabitants were merely@ called Kadhemers ("Kâd-hêmar"), because they never fared outside***.


* buta = here: without (nets)
** kol: fish gear to catch cod, consisting of a long line that is provided with angle and plummet.
http://gtb.inl.nl/iW...=WNT&id=M034627
*** buta - here: outside (DU: 'buiten')
For 'buta':
http://www.koeblerge...ch/afries-B.pdf
@ blât = here: merely


And now compare with Sandbach's translation:

Those who lived in the islands were called Letten, because they lived an isolated life.
All those who lived between Denmark and the Sandval, now the Scheldt, were called Stuurlieden (pilots), Zeekampers (naval men), and Angelaren (fishermen).
The Angelaren were men who fished in the sea, and were so named because they used lines and hooks instead of nets.
From there to the nearest part of Krekaland the inhabitants were called Kadhemers, because they never went to sea but remained ashore.

http://oeralinda.angelfire.com/#au


The OLB clearly gives an explanation for the former name of the Angelara, "Butafiska" : they never used nets, or they fished without nets.

But I had to think of something else.

In Dutch we have the word 'binnenvisser', or someone who catches fish in lakes and rivers and such.

'Binnen' means 'inside', and the opposite is 'buiten' or 'outside' (and 'without').

One could form the word 'buitenvisser' or in old Dutch-ish, "buitenvisscher". That would be someone who fishes at sea.

Butafiska >> buitenvisser >> fisherman at sea

Anyway, Butafiska appears to be the former name of the Angelara ("Anglers").

Oh, and in the quote of the OLB you will read "to fora" which is indeed Old Frisian for 'before'.
In modern Dutch that would be "te voren"

****

EDIT:

I found a German surname that is very similar to this BUTAFISKA:

Bütefisch , also spelled as Buetefisch.

When you use Google Translator, you get "butler fish", lol. Does anyone know what that is??

.

Edited by Abramelin, 13 November 2012 - 01:54 PM.


#1926    Abramelin

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Posted 13 November 2012 - 04:29 PM

Puzz and I have both mentioned the Northwestblock a couple of times:  
http://www.citizendi...g/Nordwestblock


But here is a site I linked to earlier, and also deals with this Northwestblock:

The Celtic Origin Revised: the Atlantic View and the Nordwestblock Blues
http://rokus01.wordp...-origin-revise/

Some quotes:


This feature tends to correlate the Nordwestblock substratum geographically to the group of languages in the North European Plain rather than the Atlantic, thus to the archeological horizon that also includes the northern Dutch group, referred to by Louwe Kooijmans.

The emerging Atlantic view and the potential exclusion of the Celtic origin from the North European Plain is screaming for a new assessment that relates Celtic and Germanic from the perspective of a western contact zone. The Germanic vocabulary might owe more from the west than previously conceived. Visualized by some examples, the Cornish/Welsh word lann or llan occurs frequently in place-names. Originally meaning “land”, it gradually came to mean “churchyard” and then “church” and “parish”. But how strong this original meaning ‘land’ can be confirmed to be embedded in the Celtic language? It could have been a Belgic loan, closely related or equal to Germanic “land”. In the Atlantic view the reverse might be true.

The Dutch river mouth mentioned by Pliny the Elder was called Helinium in accusitivus, what would probably indicate a Latin river name Helinius, consistent with the Latin ending -us that generally applies to rivers. Normally, -ius instead of simply -us would imply a derivation of a region called Helinus. In Frisia numerous toponyms feature the hel element, what Clerinx translates into “low lands, marsh” and subsequently connects to Brythonic “marsh” or “estuary”. Other Celtic etymologies have been proposed, like “salt” – probably inspired by now obsolete ideas that involve a Hallstatt origin of Celtic.

The Friso-Brythonic etymology does a much better job in addressing reminiscent Celtic features in Frisian, or the Ingvaeonic hemisphere as a whole. The implication would be that the -lin suffix might as well have been Germanic, distorted by Latin transcription issues. This intertwining of ancestral Celtic heritage and west Germanic loans and culture could be extended to the puzzling etymology of local goddess Nehalennia (also transcribed as Neihalennia), that now from a mixed local heritage easily translates to water-ghost (nikker ~IE *neig, to wash) of a region called Halennia – not unlike the latinized form Helinus deduced above. Since the description of the region delimited by Pliny between Helinium ac Flevum neatly corresponds to the historic region of Holland, I wonder if this is mere coincidence or that Holland indeed represent the ultimate indication of a lost Celtic heritage. This mixture could be symptomatic for the almost intangible potpourri that is might be implicated by the Nordwestblock or “Belgae” denomination. This may have been nothing but emerging West Germanic from a shared heritage.

=

If we take Cunliffe and Koch seriously, the Celtic influence along the North Sea was a lot older than conventional wisdom that stems from migrational La Tène or Hallstatt theories and the Roman interpretation: Late Bronze Age at least, in a Bronze Age Atlantic context. In the Low Countries such an unequivocal Atlantic period is very likely to be of an even older date. Some Celts might have lingered in the swamps for a longer period, but increasing continental contacts from the North German Plain and returning native styles seriously challenge the survival of an unequivocal Celtic ethnicity up to Roman times. The change from Celtic to Germanic, and especially the Ingvaeonic part, could have been much more gradual. A Celtic world strongly suggests the feasibility of an adjacent non-Celtic world, and the Low Countries is where both worlds met. It would be silly to suggest a unified Celtic world that existed since Bronze Age, but deny any consistency of a non-Celtic world in the North German Plains that was attested largely contemporaneous. A shared development at the contact zone for over at least 1000 years opens up the possibility of thorough Celtic influences on Germanic vocabularity and linguistic features in the north that ultimately were be no means confined to the Ingvaeonic hemisphere.


+++++++++++


The next is from a link at the bottom of the webpage I linked to, and it's about the (linguistic) influence of the Etruscans on the Celts:

An Etruscan Solution to a Celtic Problem
Martin Counihan
University of Southampton
23 January 2009



Abstract: It is argued that what used to be called
"P-Celtic" arose because Etruscans could not pronounce properly the Indo-European languages which they encountered in and around Italy. Etruscan influence can neatly explain not only the phenomenon of P-Celtic but also the corresponding phonological transition in Oscan and Umbrian. This scenario tends to support a relatively short timescale for the dissemination and diversification of the Western Indo-European languages.

=

In conclusion: the significance of the Etruscans in the development of European civilisation has probably been underestimated in the past. They brought the Iron Age to Italy and to the Celts, who in turn took it westwards into France and the British Isles. The Roman conquest of Gaul and Britain can even be regarded as a mere repetition of what Celtic surrogates of the Etruscans had already achieved some centuries earlier. The purpose of this paper has been to argue that the Etruscans also left a linguistic mark across Western Europe and to explain the previously-mysterious division between "P-Celtic" and "Q-Celtic". The most striking phonological difference between Irish and Welsh is a consequence of how proto-Celtic was pronounced by the influential Etruscans.

http://eprints.soton.../1/etruscan.pdf


.

Edited by Abramelin, 13 November 2012 - 04:32 PM.


#1927    Abramelin

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Posted 13 November 2012 - 05:19 PM

One of the ideas based on the OLB is that Fryan or, say, Proto Frisian, was the source language from which other Germanic languages developed.

Well, either the believers in the OLB have link-phobia, lol,  or they missed it, but read this (from the same Rokus site I linked to earlier) :


Old Germanic in La Tène, Another Perspective On Germanic Ethnogenesis and Runes
http://rokus01.wordp...nic-in-la-tene/


Nordwestblock theorists made a case for a third option, neither Celtic nor Germanic, or maybe rather a language somewhere in between PIE and Germanic. Some traces of a language that didn’t evolve some of the most outstanding Germanic soundshifts may have been preserved in West Germanic irregularities with words like “path” next to “foot”, “key” (Dutch: kaag) next to “hedge” (Dutch: haag). This could tentatively suggest a process of gradual incorporation of pre-Germanic elements into the Germanic world, having a much longer history than generally considered. The convergence implied could have been completed already long before the Migration Period and stabilized even before the Roman conquest of Gaul, or may have remained an ongoing process well into the Migration Period.


#1928    Abramelin

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Posted 13 November 2012 - 05:55 PM

Language Change and Language Structure: Older Germanic Languages in a Comparative Perspective.
Toril Swan, Endre Mørck, Olaf Jansen Westvik (Editors) / 1994
.

Posted Image

http://books.google....epage&q&f=false



Theo Vennemann (born May 27, 1937) is a German linguist known best for his work on historical linguistics, especially for his disputed theories of a Vasconic substratum and an Atlantic superstratum of European languages. He also suggests that the High German consonant shift was already completed in the early 1st century BC, and not in the 9th century AD as most experts believe. Born in Oberhausen-Sterkrade, he is currently a professor emeritus in Germanic and Theoretical Linguistics at the Ludwig Maximilian University of Munich.

==

* Punic, the Semitic language spoken in classical Carthage, is a superstratum of the Germanic languages. According to Vennemann, Carthaginians colonized the North Sea region between the 6th and 3rd centuries BC; this is evidenced by numerous Semitic loan words in the Germanic languages, as well as structural features such as strong verbs, and similarities between Norse religion and Semitic religion. This theory replaces his older theory of a superstratum of an unknown Semitic language called "Atlantic".

* Semitic is a substratum of the Celtic languages, as shown by certain structural features of Celtic, especially their lack of external possessors.

* The Runic alphabet is derived directly from the Phoenician alphabet used by the Carthaginians, without intervention by the Greek alphabet.

* The Germanic sound shift is dated to the 6th to 3rd centuries BC, as evidenced by the fact that some presumed Punic loan words participated in it, while others did not.



http://en.wikipedia..../Theo_Vennemann


Superstratum

A superstratum or superstrate (plural: superstrata or superstrates) is the counterpart to a substratum. When one language succeeds another, the former is termed the superstratum and the latter the substratum. In the case of French, for example, the Frankish language is the superstrate and Gaulic the substrate.

http://en.wikipedia....um#Superstratum


#1929    Abramelin

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Posted 13 November 2012 - 06:17 PM

I wonder... could't it not have been Minoans/Mycenaeans instead of Phoenicians? At least we now have some proof they visited Northern Europe and far earlier than the Phoenicians did

Here some old posts of mine, about Minoan/Mycenaean artefacts found on NW Germany / the German Bight (and my excuses for the 'preaching' in those posts, lol):

http://www.unexplain...35#entry3670892

http://www.unexplain...45#entry4408970

http://www.unexplain...45#entry4408433

I also posted about a Minoan/Mycenaean inscription found in Scandinavia, dating from around 1700 BC. Maybe it's hidden somewhere in the old posts I linked to.


+++


EDIT:

Ectocretan was a language or group of languages dominant in ancient Crete prior to Mycenaean Greek. During the Minoan civilization, it was recorded in administrative and religious hieroglyphic and Linear A inscriptions. Numerous attempts have been made to ascertain its linguistic affiliation, however it remains an unclassified language and its relationship with Greek is unknown.

=

Very little is known about Eteocretan language. Its analysis and study are severely limited by the fact that the Bronze Age Linear A syllabary, its only source of attestation, remains undecipherable.


http://en.wikipedia....cretan_language


The written language of the Minoans is called Linear A by archeologists, linguists and historians, and has not yet been deciphered. The Mycenaean language, Linear B, was not deciphered until the 1950s, and linguists hope one day to crack the code, as more writings are unearthed in excavations. One example is the Phaistos Disc, where the writing runs in a spiral from the outside to the center. LInguists now believe that Linear A and Linear B are very similar. Until recently it was believed that Linear A was not related to Linear B, an ancestor of the Greek language, and was not an Indo European language, a family that includes ancient Greek and Latin. However, this view has changed. Linguists have discovered a close relationship between Linear A and Sanskrit, the ancient language of India, with connections to Hittite and Armenian, making it clear that Linear A is an Indo European language. Dozens of researchers are working on the puzzle with the approximately 600 words in existence.

http://www.historywi...nslinear-a.html


Beginning our research with inscriptions in Linear A carved on offering tables found in the many peak sanctuaries on the mountains of Crete, we recognise a clear relationship between Linear A and Sanskrit, the ancient language of India. There is also a connection to Hittite and Armenian. This relationship allows us to place the Minoan language among the so-called Indo-European languages, a vast family that includes modern Greek and the Latin of Ancient Rome.

The Minoan and Greek languages are considered to be different branches of Indo-European. The Minoans probably moved from Anatolia to the island of Crete about 10,000 years ago. There were similar population movements to Greece. The relative isolation of the population which settled in Crete resulted in the development of its own language, Minoan, which is considered different to Mycenaean. In the Minoan language (Linear A), there are no purely Greek words, as is the case in Mycenaean Linear B; it contains only words also found in Greek, Sanskrit and Latin, i.e. sharing the same Indo-European origin.


http://www.cretegaze...an-language.php


.

Edited by Abramelin, 13 November 2012 - 06:33 PM.


#1930    Otharus

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Posted 13 November 2012 - 07:00 PM

View PostAbramelin, on 13 November 2012 - 12:29 PM, said:

Because of the crease in the paper, part of the letter -F- is hidden, but you can still see something extra:

Posted Image

And it is not a dot/period separating the letters because that one is clearly visible on the right.

How do you interpret that dot?
Do you believe it is part of the letter?
How would you reconstruct the letter?
What was the relevance of that calligraphed letter you posted?


#1931    Abramelin

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Posted 13 November 2012 - 07:07 PM

View PostOtharus, on 13 November 2012 - 07:00 PM, said:

How do you interpret that dot?
Do you believe it is part of the letter?
How would you reconstruct the letter?
What was the relevance of that calligraphed letter you posted?

I think the dot is what remains of a little line connected to the main figure (letter).

The calligraphed letter is just what I think it looks like (somewhat).

And that extra line (that's what I think it is) made me think of that


#1932    Abramelin

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Posted 13 November 2012 - 07:09 PM

Linear A inscription discovered in 1987 on a rock panel in Kongsberg, Norway, approx. 1700 BC. The Linear A signs beneath were photocopied from “Inscribed Tablets and Pithos of Linear A System from Zakro”, by N. Platonos and W. Brice (1975). The cup form of the pi sign is characteristic also of the pi sign pecked into the rock, but this copy is from the Norwegian semitist, Ph.D. Kjell Aartun’s list in Die Minoische Schrift. Band I. The rock panel, with pictures of carvings, is described under chapter 5 Kongsberg.

http://www.unexplain...20#entry4171106

Rock panel with carvings (Helleristning) I

Petroglyphs

Near to this cup mark, there is a figure which may represent a boat.  With the high, upright stern and prow, equally high as what could be the mast, it looks like a ship rendered on a Mycenean vase from late Minoan time ( Ernst Kjellberg og Gösta Säflund, Græsk og Romersk Kunst, 1962, p. 31). To the left is the Linear A inscription, with the signs tu yu  pi ti. The ship figure is pecked into the rock with the same technique as used in the inscription and the cup mark.

...and so on...

http://www.unexplain...20#entry4171181
http://jarnaes.wordp....com/kongsberg/


#1933    Otharus

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Posted 13 November 2012 - 07:13 PM

View PostAbramelin, on 13 November 2012 - 11:21 AM, said:

Angelara sâ hêton mân to fora tha butafiskar vmbe that hja alan mith angel jefta kol fiskton aend nimmer nên netum.
[you:]

The Angelara were men heretofor called the Butafiskar* because they only fished with hooks or kol ** and never nets'.
[sandbach:]
The Angelaren were men who fished in the sea, and were so named because they used lines and hooks instead of nets.

You make it more complicated than it is.

" Angelara, zo heette (noemde) men tevoren de buitenvissers, omdat ze alleen met angel en kol visten en nimmer met netten."

"Angelara, so the 'seafishermen' (fishermen in the open water) were named in earlier times, because they only caught fish with angel (hook) or kol (lines), and never with nets."

(http://gtb.inl.nl/iW...rn=buitenvisser)

Edited by Otharus, 13 November 2012 - 07:14 PM.


#1934    Otharus

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Posted 13 November 2012 - 07:16 PM

View PostAbramelin, on 13 November 2012 - 07:07 PM, said:

I think the dot is what remains of a little line connected to the main figure (letter).

Can you make a drawing of what you think it should be?


#1935    Abramelin

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Posted 13 November 2012 - 08:12 PM

View PostOtharus, on 13 November 2012 - 07:16 PM, said:

Can you make a drawing of what you think it should be?

Posted Image

I know it looks like sh1t, but either the one copying the MS had some problems with his quill, or this is how the letter should look.

The crease in the paper was formed AFTER the MS was written, or else the ink would still be visible in the cracked parts.

.

Edited by Abramelin, 13 November 2012 - 08:42 PM.





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