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Which Philosophy more humanitarian? Con? Lib?


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#1    sear

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Posted 31 March 2013 - 02:58 PM

Which Philosophy is more humanitarian? Conservatism? Liberalism?

Liberals are often associated with welfare such as food stamps.

It's axiomatic that we should not "bite the hand that feeds us."

But is that really true?

Quote

The proverb warns that "You should not bite the hand that feeds you." But maybe you should, if it prevents you from feeding yourself.
psychiatrist Thomas Szasz
Contrast the idea of government charity, with another familiar expression.

Quote

Give a man a fish, he eats for a day.
Teach a man to fish, he eats for a lifetime.
So which philosophy is actually the more compassionate? Giving the man a fish? Or teaching him to fish?


#2    and then

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Posted 31 March 2013 - 03:05 PM

View Postsear, on 31 March 2013 - 02:58 PM, said:

Which Philosophy is more humanitarian? Conservatism? Liberalism?

Liberals are often associated with welfare such as food stamps.

It's axiomatic that we should not "bite the hand that feeds us."

But is that really true?

Contrast the idea of government charity, with another familiar expression.

So which philosophy is actually the more compassionate? Giving the man a fish? Or teaching him to fish?
I think the positives of both are legitimate.  The problem is that the pols are NOT sincere in their application of them.  At some point in the last few decades there has been a wholesale swap from our pols attempting to be true servants and statesmen to being shill sold to the highest corporate bidder.  The whole corrupt facade is ready to collapse now though.  It will be interesting to see if Americans still really desire to be free in the coming years.

  We've cast the world, we've set the stage,
  for what could be, the darkest age...

#3    sear

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Posted 31 March 2013 - 03:35 PM

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" It will be interesting to see if Americans still really desire to be free in the coming years. " at
I find it not merely a human rights catastrophe, but a ruthless self-betrayal, that we have frittered away our freedoms so recklessly, so carefully. I can think of no more monstrous ingratitude in all history.
We have squandered our Liberty.
And for what?!
Liberty is worth whatever price a People is willing to pay for it.
It's painfully obvious we're not willing to pay much for our own.
It wouldn't surprise me, if our nation's Founders would have known precisely where their posterity would be today; they might not have bothered with their Revolution.
The sanity check?
The tax rate on tea, and other Townsend Act taxes, the tax so egregious they waged a bloody Revolution to escape it; know how big that tax was? 3 pence per pound!
At the going rate of tea back then, that's a little less than 2.13% tax.
Yet there are some in this country whose income is taxed an order of magnitude more than that now.
In the 18th Century U.S. government was our servant.
In the 21st Century, U.S. government is our master.
So where's the Revolution?


#4    and then

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Posted 31 March 2013 - 05:53 PM

I was purchasing a Bond Arms Cowboy, .45/.410, the other day and in the gun shop I saw this bumper sticker:  

                                                             STOP b****ING
                                                  AND START THE REVOLUTION

I think that quite soon the population will be roused from it's lethargy by circumstances of extreme hardship.  A revolution may well come then, but who knows how it would end.

  We've cast the world, we've set the stage,
  for what could be, the darkest age...

#5    itsnotoutthere

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Posted 31 March 2013 - 06:18 PM

View Postand then, on 31 March 2013 - 05:53 PM, said:

I was purchasing a Bond Arms Cowboy, .45/.410, the other day and in the gun shop I saw this bumper sticker:  

STOP b****ING
  AND START THE REVOLUTION

I think that quite soon the population will be roused from it's lethargy by circumstances of extreme hardship.  A revolution may well come then, but who knows how it would end.


Yes any excuse to use those expensive guns for what they were intended, i mean why have a gun when you can't shoot someone with it, right?

Edited by itsnotoutthere, 31 March 2013 - 06:19 PM.

“Politics is the art of looking for trouble, finding it everywhere, diagnosing it incorrectly and applying the wrong remedies.”
― Groucho Marx

#6    sear

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Posted 31 March 2013 - 08:45 PM

Quote

"I think that quite soon the population will be roused from it's lethargy by circumstances of extreme hardship.  A revolution may well come then, but who knows how it would end." at
" ... all experience hath shown, that mankind are more disposed to suffer, while evils are sufferable, than to right themselves by abolishing the forms to which they are accustomed." TJ / DOI

I'm w/ TJ on it.
The People of the United States of America have vastly more to lose than to gain by getting in a nationwide shooting War against their own governments.

Look at Syria. It's a nightmare worse than many here can even imagine. U.S. citizens have had it so good for so long; we treat as dire an uptick of a tenth of one percent in the unemployment rate; while Syria is counting corpses by the tens of thousands.

The U.S. isn't perfect. But we've got it pretty damned good! And if you doubt that, then why are so many from other nations in such a clammer to come and live here? Evidently some of them think life here as an illegal alien is better than life in their home nation, as a legal resident.

What does that tell you?

CHEER UP!! Your glasses are all at least half full.
There are very few half-empty glasses in the United States of America.


#7    ShadowSot

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Posted 31 March 2013 - 09:57 PM

So many people from Mexico are at a rush to live here, yes. However how many among the developed nations are at a rush to live here?
I know many people who do study here and come from over seas, in fact for a short time I dated a girl studying Biology here who came from Australia.
  However, she did not want to live here, mostly due to our health care system as well as the strong religious
I know many people who have come here to study at university, and then go back to their home country. I keep in contact with a number of people who live overseas and are astounded at some of the news that comes out of the US. Either in terms of our handling of health care, the way that religion is shoved into our politics, the way we have "wars" on terrorism and drugs which do little more than undermine they rights outlaid in the Bill of Rights, or how backward we are in the treatment of women and minorities like blacks and homosexuals.

For me, the point is not that we are better than places like Mexico or Syria, the point is that among the countries that are our peers, we have fallen behind. This despite warnings going back decades and suggestions of how to fix the problems we are facing in terms of the economy, in terms of education, and in terms of healthcare.

Edited by ShadowSot, 31 March 2013 - 09:58 PM.

It was so much easier to blame it on Them. It was bleakly depressing to think that They were Us. If it was Them, then nothing was anyone's fault. If it was us, what did that make Me? After all, I'm one of Us. I must be. I've certainly never thought of myself as one of Them. No one ever thinks of themselves as one of Them. We're always one of Us. It's Them that do the bad things.
-Terry Pratchett

#8    sear

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Posted 31 March 2013 - 10:12 PM

Quote

"However how many among the developed nations are at a rush to live here?" SS
Enough so that there are quotas, and waiting lists.

Quote

"we have fallen behind." SS
Correct.
And yet, there are still quotas and waiting lists.

SS,
The U.S. used to be referred to as "the land of opportunity".
It may be more accurate to describe India that way.

None the less, the United States of America is a nation & People that is feared, admired, tolerated, hated, envied, and even on rare occasions, appreciated.

Quote

"Over the years, the United States has sent many of its fine young men and women into great peril to fight for freedom beyond our borders. The only amount of land we have ever asked for in return is enough to bury those that did not return." U.S. Secretary Colin Powell    
Our flag may be a bit gaudy. Our foreign policy has clearly gone extremely wrong. There may even be some justification for the epithet "the great satan" in Islam.

But there's been worse. &
we're trying to do better.


#9    ShadowSot

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Posted 31 March 2013 - 10:51 PM

Quote

And yet, there are still quotas and waiting lists.

Right, because the US is better than a third or near third world country.
We're better than the worst, but well behind the best. That's nothing to be proud of.
Now personally, I try to work towards improvement.


Quote

Our flag may be a bit gaudy. Our foreign policy has clearly gone extremely wrong. There may even be some justification for the epithet "the great satan" in Islam.

I disagree with the quote from Powell. It sounds nice, but we regularly engage not for protection of freedoms, but to secure resources. We do everything short of take their land, and have a bad habit of putting people in charge that directly benefit us, yet are themselves tyrants on their people.

We have sent many men and women to their deaths under the guise of fighting for our freedoms... but what freedoms have we protected, really?

I like the myth of America, and I believe it is possible to make it a reality. However, I think people have become so sold on the myth they don't recognize the reality. If you need to compare yourself to the abosulte worst in order to feel comfortable about the country you live in, there's a problem. Don't be content because things aren't as bad as they could be, be angry that they aren't better.

Edited by ShadowSot, 31 March 2013 - 10:51 PM.

It was so much easier to blame it on Them. It was bleakly depressing to think that They were Us. If it was Them, then nothing was anyone's fault. If it was us, what did that make Me? After all, I'm one of Us. I must be. I've certainly never thought of myself as one of Them. No one ever thinks of themselves as one of Them. We're always one of Us. It's Them that do the bad things.
-Terry Pratchett

#10    sear

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Posted 01 April 2013 - 08:26 AM

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"Right, because the US is better than a third or near third world country." SS
"Better" is your word. There are some beautiful places on Earth (nations) that have, for example, been spared the humiliation of NATO membership.
The per capita standard of living in the U.S. may be "better" (your word), by broad subjective view. But let's just bear in mind, it may be subjective.

But if standard of living were the issue, then why isn't Denmark barraged with emigration applications?

Quote

"We're better than the worst, but well behind the best." SS
By many standards, you're correct.
Per capita homicides.
Infant mortality.
Longevity.
Cancer rates, etc.

I agree.

Quote

"That's nothing to be proud of." SS
I think U.S. citizens that take pride in their own nation take pride in it despite its flaws, not because of them.

Quote

"Now personally, I try to work towards improvement." SS
I believe the United States of America does that both as a trend of individual citizens, and collectively, as a whole People.

I'm trying to think of a People that doesn't do that. None comes to mind.


#11    and then

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Posted 01 April 2013 - 08:50 AM

View Postitsnotoutthere, on 31 March 2013 - 06:18 PM, said:

Yes any excuse to use those expensive guns for what they were intended, i mean why have a gun when you can't shoot someone with it, right?
Yeah!!  And we'll eat bloody red meat and sing while we slaughter - and Europe is next on our list - we're the nadir of civilization, didn't you know?  Give it a rest man.  The people and the politics in your corner of the world are definitely NOT superior to the US.  You have just as many problems as we do - you simply approach them in a different way.  And from what I can tell you're not having any more success with them than we.  Your gentleness, compassion and progressive outlook has swamped you with the dregs of humanity from the countries that surround you and a once proud civilization is dying the death of a thousand cuts.  But God forbid a person be allowed to have the personal responsibility of possessing a deadly weapon that's been around for hundreds of years.  The preachy, snarky comments get really old after awhile.

  We've cast the world, we've set the stage,
  for what could be, the darkest age...

#12    sear

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Posted 01 April 2013 - 10:46 AM

Quote

"Posted Imageitsnotoutthere, on 31 March 2013 - 02:18 PM, said:

Yes any excuse to use those expensive guns for what they were intended, i mean why have a gun when you can't shoot someone with it, right?"

"Yeah!!  And we'll eat bloody red meat and sing while we slaughter - and Europe is next on our list - we're the nadir of civilization, didn't you know?  Give it a rest man.  The people and the politics in your corner of the world are definitely NOT superior to the US.  You have just as many problems as we do - you simply approach them in a different way.  And from what I can tell you're not having any more success with them than we.  Your gentleness, compassion and progressive outlook has swamped you with the dregs of humanity from the countries that surround you and a once proud civilization is dying the death of a thousand cuts.  But God forbid a person be allowed to have the personal responsibility of possessing a deadly weapon that's been around for hundreds of years.  The preachy, snarky comments get really old after awhile." at
Do either of you think gun ownership is liberal? Conservative?

Both your comments seem to be in caricature / ridicule / satire.

Quote

"parabellum can cepic .... : to insure peace, prepare for war"
One reason to bulk up so much your biceps have greater girth than most thighs is not so you can beat up an assailant.

Instead it's to discourage an assault.

Quote

  "... the beauty of a chainsaw is, you don't really have to start it up. If you just show up with it ..." Joe Walsh, commenting on his younger days of trashing hotel rooms while on tour    



#13    and then

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Posted 01 April 2013 - 05:33 PM

View Postsear, on 01 April 2013 - 10:46 AM, said:

Do either of you think gun ownership is liberal? Conservative?

Both your comments seem to be in caricature / ridicule / satire.

One reason to bulk up so much your biceps have greater girth than most thighs is not so you can beat up an assailant.

Instead it's to discourage an assault.
In post #3 you asked rhetorically "where is the revolution" and I answered - only to be jumped by another anti gun type.  The choice to own guns is neither Lib/Con.  It is so universally accepted in the US that even a Lib controlled Senate will not seriously challenge it.

  We've cast the world, we've set the stage,
  for what could be, the darkest age...

#14    Ashotep

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Posted 01 April 2013 - 06:40 PM

I would say give the man the fish because when you teach him to fish he trespasses to fish in someone else's pond and goes to jail.


#15    sear

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Posted 01 April 2013 - 07:09 PM

Quote

"I would say give the man the fish because when you teach him to fish he trespasses to fish in someone else's pond and goes to jail." H
But when he's convicted for trespassing, he does 30 days jail time. And in jail, he'll get "three squares" (three free meals) each day, for 30 days!





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