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Ban to fail students who challenge science


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#31    Jinxdom

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Posted 27 February 2013 - 09:21 AM

View PostMichaelW, on 27 February 2013 - 08:32 AM, said:

However, the notion that humans and dinosaurs existed together has been proven, conclusively, to be false. This is an undeniable fact.
You missed my point that the article mentions dinosaurs not the bill.

View PostMichaelW, on 27 February 2013 - 08:32 AM, said:

For people that don't know what a species is, that is.
http://en.wikipedia....Species_problem

View PostMichaelW, on 27 February 2013 - 08:32 AM, said:

I was under the impression that the US was a secular state and thus public schools (or whatever the US equivalents are). If these students (or their parents) wanted them to have religious teachings, send them to a religious school. That's what they are there for.

Agreed, but not even relevant. It's a bill to allow questions to be asked. Not a bill to allow religion to be taught in school.

View PostMichaelW, on 27 February 2013 - 08:32 AM, said:

Then they are pretty ****ty schools then if they do not teach information based on decades of research and evidence, or cannot access materials that have such information be it in electronic form or the humble book.

Again you missed the point. That was relating to the students not the school.

View PostMichaelW, on 27 February 2013 - 08:32 AM, said:

Do you honestly think that what a child learns about the world other than right and wrong is better than what they are taught at school? What if the parents told them that 2+2=6? Would that be considered right just because their parents said so?

You missed the point completely. I never said anything about something like that being right nor does the bill. It would merely let the kid ask... hey wait a minute my parents said 2+2=6, then the teacher would show them why it doesn't. If they said 2+2=6 on the test they would still get it wrong.


View PostMichaelW, on 27 February 2013 - 08:32 AM, said:

Science and maths is different to that of social studies. The latter is best for open discussions because nothing is set in concrete.

I said subject eluding to anything like creationism and that dinosaur thing not actual school subjects.


#32    MiskatonicGrad

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Posted 27 February 2013 - 10:28 AM

I never did understand why the secular world is so hung up on this fact? How something that may or may not have taken place a couple million or just 6,000 yrs ago is going to keep someone from learning scientific principles? Is this really science or speculation? I don't see how they can truly present this hypothesis as a fact? Isn't that bad science? until someone creates a time machine it can only be a hypothesis. If the liberal left would just let go of their religious dogma of evolution and start teaching science(as in observable facts) maybe our children can get around to solving some of the worlds problems. I have a friend who grew up in "we don't believe in god" communist russia and he learned evolution and creationism as theories and then moved on. because at the end of the day does it really matter? please someone tell me how this effects me still driving around in a car still powered by technology invented in a time when the majority of the population still went to church on sunday and didn't know or really care about evolution?

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#33    Bama13

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Posted 27 February 2013 - 02:26 PM

View PostThanato, on 27 February 2013 - 12:36 AM, said:

Also most people knew that the world was flat. That's why crossing the Atlantic wasn't done until the very end of the 15th century (with the exception of a small viking colony in Newfoundland).

Negative. Most people knew the earth wasn't flat.

http://www.washingto...szQaL_blog.html

http://jameshannam.com/flatearth.htm

http://creation.com/...and-creationism

There are plenty more if you just google "Flat Earth myth".

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#34    aztek

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Posted 27 February 2013 - 08:14 PM

it doesn't matter really if dorma was flat earth or  position in divine cosmos.
what is important is that church's view was the only truth, anything else was a heresy.

and i'm pretty sure, poor peasants, that never went farther than 10-20 miles away from the place they were born, in their life,, had no frigging clue how it really was, chirch's word was the only undisputable truth, and 500 or so years ago, there was more of those ppl than ones with title and education.
so yea most ppl did believe in what church said, (weather it was flat earth or the sun revolves around earth...etc ) than those that not.

Edited by aztek, 27 February 2013 - 08:21 PM.

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#35    Valdemar the Great

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Posted 27 February 2013 - 08:55 PM

View Postaztek, on 27 February 2013 - 08:14 PM, said:

it doesn't matter really if dorma was flat earth or  position in divine cosmos.
what is important is that church's view was the only truth, anything else was a heresy.

and i'm pretty sure, poor peasants, that never went farther than 10-20 miles away from the place they were born, in their life,, had no frigging clue how it really was, chirch's word was the only undisputable truth, and 500 or so years ago, there was more of those ppl than ones with title and education.
so yea most ppl did believe in what church said, (weather it was flat earth or the sun revolves around earth...etc ) than those that not.
Then did it really matter?

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#36    MichaelW

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Posted 27 February 2013 - 11:24 PM

View PostJinxdom, on 27 February 2013 - 09:21 AM, said:

You missed my point that the article mentions dinosaurs not the bill.

Nope. I didn't miss the point.

Quote

It's a bill to allow questions to be asked. Not a bill to allow religion to be taught in school.

It's a question born out of religion. It's pretty much tantamount to saying "hey, the Earth really isn't billions of years old, it's just 6,000".

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Again you missed the point. That was relating to the students not the school.

And no again. You obviously didn't see the point I made that students have access to information based on decades of research and evidence.

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You missed the point completely.

No I haven't and if you keep saying this because I dismissed your entire argument then there is no point in continuing this.

Quote

I said subject eluding to anything like creationism and that dinosaur thing not actual school subjects.

And as I said, it shouldn't be discussed, period. Science is no place for religion.

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#37    MichaelW

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Posted 27 February 2013 - 11:30 PM

View PostMiskatonicGrad, on 27 February 2013 - 10:28 AM, said:

How something that may or may not have taken place a couple million or just 6,000 yrs ago is going to keep someone from learning scientific principles?

Because there is evidence of this. If we look at the dinosaurs existing alongside humans fallacy, any archaeologists who dig these fossils from the ground have the ability to date the rocks themselves and those surrounding said fossils using radio carbon dating or radio argon dating. Not only this, but the earliest human fossils have been found way above where the latest dinosaur fossils have been found? Why? Because millions of years of dirt and sediment have buried them before the first humans died. Simple.

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If the liberal left would just let go of their religious dogma of evolution and start teaching science(as in observable facts) maybe our children can get around to solving some of the worlds problems.

Wait, what? Isn't the US supposed to be a secular state? And if you wanted your child to learn about religion and whatnot, why couldn't you send them to a religious school?


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please someone tell me how this effects me still driving around in a car still powered by technology invented in a time when the majority of the population still went to church on sunday and didn't know or really care about evolution?

Really, no clue in that head of yours is there?

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#38    MiskatonicGrad

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Posted 28 February 2013 - 01:07 AM

View PostMichaelW, on 27 February 2013 - 11:30 PM, said:

Because there is evidence of this. If we look at the dinosaurs existing alongside humans fallacy, any archaeologists who dig these fossils from the ground have the ability to date the rocks themselves and those surrounding said fossils using radio carbon dating or radio argon dating. Not only this, but the earliest human fossils have been found way above where the latest dinosaur fossils have been found? Why? Because millions of years of dirt and sediment have buried them before the first humans died. Simple.



Wait, what? Isn't the US supposed to be a secular state? And if you wanted your child to learn about religion and whatnot, why couldn't you send them to a religious school?




Really, no clue in that head of yours is there?
My main point to this discussion is why do we have to hammer this home to our students? what is the point? the liberals say it is because america is slipping in the sciences compared with the rest of the world well guess what we were put on top by people who didn't learn either evolution or creationism in school. they learned science. we haven't had a meaningful technological break through since the 1960's which interestly is when they took the bible out of school. in WW 2 the fire direction computers on the battleships were mechanical( gears and crap no windows operating system) and they were damn accurate and the people who made them onlty had their brain and a slide rule i dare say there isn't a college graduated engineer in the last 20 to 30 years that could do the same. If we would focus more on teaching and less on indoctrunation we would be farther ahead. I just think if we used as the basis for our sciences the writtings of H.G. Wells and Jules Vern and not Darwin I could have my flying car and my summer house on mars.

to your first point. How does this effect my life if my great grandfather to the 100 degree had a pet sauropod? is this going to help me live a longer happier life?

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#39    MichaelW

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Posted 28 February 2013 - 05:37 AM

View PostMiskatonicGrad, on 28 February 2013 - 01:07 AM, said:

My main point to this discussion is why do we have to hammer this home to our students? what is the point?

Conversely, why do you think we should allow religious discussions into science?

Quote

the liberals say it is because america is slipping in the sciences compared with the rest of the world well guess what we were put on top by people who didn't learn either evolution or creationism in school.

And it looks to me like the US is slipping on the English language also. Punctuation is sorely lacking on this forum. Also, what did they learn in science about how mankind came to be if they weren't either taught about creationism or evolution? That humans fell from a magical tree like fruit?

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they learned science.

Science is a broad term. One cannot learn "science" anymore than one can learn "maths". You get the basics of everything in science such as physics, biology, astronomy etc. in the same way that you learn the basics of maths like calculus.

Quote

we haven't had a meaningful technological break through since the 1960's which interestly is when they took the bible out of school. in WW 2 the fire direction computers on the battleships were mechanical( gears and crap no windows operating system) and they were damn accurate and the people who made them onlty had their brain and a slide rule i dare say there isn't a college graduated engineer in the last 20 to 30 years that could do the same. If we would focus more on teaching and less on indoctrunation we would be farther ahead. I just think if we used as the basis for our sciences the writtings of H.G. Wells and Jules Vern and not Darwin I could have my flying car and my summer house on mars.

As I said, you really don't have a clue do you? If you're holding Darwin to the same scientific standards as novelists whose flights of science fiction result in such classics like "War of the Worlds" then you really shouldn't be posting. Darwin's works were based on years and years of research in the field. H.G Wells basically speculated on what the future, or indeed, what extraterrestrials may take the form of and wrote it down.

And in any case, with such a shocking grasp of the English language, I'm not surprised you would make such stupid claims.

Quote

to your first point. How does this effect my life if my great grandfather to the 100 degree had a pet sauropod? is this going to help me live a longer happier life?

Well, for people like you who don't seem to take an interest in things outside their own insulated lives, it doesn't. To people who have even a basic interest in life before civilisation and how we came to be, it does. Certainly, I would like to see how us as a species rose above other hominids to dominate the planet as we do today.

And the starting point for this is to clarify that humans didn't inhabit the planet at the same time dinosaurs did. Hell, humans at one point would have been considered an endangered species.

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#40    AsteroidX

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Posted 28 February 2013 - 05:56 AM

What makes you qualified to say so much about American politics or social ideals Michael W. ? Need ta know what why you think your ideas are so much more profound then those of us that actually live here ?


#41    MichaelW

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Posted 28 February 2013 - 10:05 AM

View PostAsteroidX, on 28 February 2013 - 05:56 AM, said:

What makes you qualified to say so much about American politics or social ideals Michael W. ?

I frequent many other forums with Americans on them and politics and I asked questions. I'm just as informed as you are.

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Need ta know what why you think your ideas are so much more profound then those of us that actually live here ?

Intelligence of course, as well as an opinion from an inhabitant of the civilised world. After all, the very benevolent moderation thought it fair to restrict me from disproving the arguments of those who frequented the Middle East forums so I figured the US would be full of just as many Neanderthals beating their clubs over conspiracy theories.

And I was right.

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#42    Uncle Sam

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Posted 28 February 2013 - 07:22 PM

I think this bill is a bad idea, it could be used to further means of religion groups to thrust themselves into government positions. You know how that ends up when religion and the state combine, it usually ends in complete tyranny while surpressing scientific advancements because it goes against their holy texts. It makes me even more sad, that it is happening here in Oklahoma, my birthplace and my home. Is our government getting ignorant and uninformed with each generation? Apparently so...

Edited by Uncle Sam, 28 February 2013 - 07:22 PM.

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#43    ninjadude

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Posted 01 March 2013 - 02:51 AM

View PostMiskatonicGrad, on 28 February 2013 - 01:07 AM, said:

we haven't had a meaningful technological break through since the 1960's

here's the arrow thru your entire argument - that thing your typing on..... :whistle:

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#44    White Unicorn

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Posted 01 March 2013 - 04:19 AM

View PostJinxdom, on 27 February 2013 - 05:04 AM, said:

The article mentions dinosaurs or not the bill itself. Even evolution has parts to it that are extremely mucky. What constitutes as a species is highly debatable. It's cool though making snap judgements on an article that was written to scare people.

What would you rather kids actually learn and understand why what they were taught is wrong or should we just fail them because their parents taught them wrong?

Seriously thees are kids. They do not have decades of information at hand. They have information given to them from their parents. If they kids can't question about what they were taught by their parents vs what they are being taught in school how would they know which is right?

Think of the predicament kids are in when it comes to school. Since schools do the same thing parents do. I am right because I said so. Who would you trust in that situation? Somebody who feeds you, protects you, knew you for all of your life or somebody you known for less then a year and you are forced to go see. Allowing kids to discuss a subject can break the parents teaching. Most good teachers do this already.

That's a great point :)  

I liked college since there were a lot of open discussions instead of a this is unrefutable fact like teaching in most of the lower grades. Good teachers RULE because they allow it.

Reminds me of the guy who was suspended in Catholic school because of a theology class. They were discussing the pagans, the crusades and the commandment not to have idols and statues etc. He spoke out that  the crusades was a way to pillage others and bring back riches to the church and what are all the statues of saints that we bow down and pray to but idols?  you're making me a pagan!  

Now seriously, if he had a good teacher, she would have explained why she didn't believe that it was the same thing. No the nun  hit  him and had him suspended instead. Then he went home to get spanked by his mom and dad too. He might have remained a Catholic instead of just wanting to leave all religious thoughts behind when he finally got out of school!

It's weird, but if they  teach science without an open debate now and then, it could have the same effect in the opposite direction too :(


#45    and then

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Posted 01 March 2013 - 10:03 AM

View PostUncle Sam, on 28 February 2013 - 07:22 PM, said:

I think this bill is a bad idea, it could be used to further means of religion groups to thrust themselves into government positions. You know how that ends up when religion and the state combine, it usually ends in complete tyranny while surpressing scientific advancements because it goes against their holy texts. It makes me even more sad, that it is happening here in Oklahoma, my birthplace and my home. Is our government getting ignorant and uninformed with each generation? Apparently so...
Come now, are you saying that religious types or ideas are gaining MORE prominence or power in today's educational system?  It is clearly the opposite.

  We've cast the world, we've set the stage,
  for what could be, the darkest age...




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