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911 inside job - for what?


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#691    Babe Ruth

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Posted 23 January 2013 - 09:51 PM

What I know Sky, is that you play fast and loose with facts and representations.  You post faked videos and photos, it is discovered, and yet you somehow expect to be taken seriously.


#692    skyeagle409

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Posted 23 January 2013 - 09:54 PM

View PostBabe Ruth, on 23 January 2013 - 09:51 PM, said:

What I know Sky, is that you play fast and loose with facts and representations.

Let's put it all in perspective. You allowed yourself to be duped. After all, you threw in that P700 anti-ship missile in that attack on the Pentagon. Where did you get that from?! :w00t:

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You post faked videos and photos, it is discovered, and yet you somehow expect to be taken seriously.

Considering that photos were official and authenticated, what more is there to say?

Edited by skyeagle409, 23 January 2013 - 10:27 PM.

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#693    skyeagle409

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Posted 24 January 2013 - 01:12 AM

View PostBabe Ruth, on 23 January 2013 - 09:36 PM, said:

I thought you knew aviation Sky?

STC applies to all types, all models, all certified aircraft.

But, I do!!

Did you really think that American Airlines and United Airlines would have allowed their aircraft to undergo such modifications? How amusing that you seem to think so, which underlines the point that when you post FAA regulations as references, you do not understand the specifics of what you are posting. :no:

If you are going to use the FAA or its regulations as references, at least understand the details of those regulations before you post them as sources.

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#694    pallidin

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Posted 24 January 2013 - 01:19 AM

View PostBabe Ruth, on 23 January 2013 - 09:51 PM, said:

What I know Sky, is that you play fast and loose with facts and representations.  You post faked videos and photos, it is discovered, and yet you somehow expect to be taken seriously.

Which photos and video's are fake from SkyEagle??

Please provide at least some evidence.


#695    joc

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Posted 24 January 2013 - 01:02 PM

View Postskyeagle409, on 24 January 2013 - 01:12 AM, said:

But, I do!!

Did you really think that American Airlines and United Airlines would have allowed their aircraft to undergo such modifications? How amusing that you seem to think so, which underlines the point that when you post FAA regulations as references, you do not understand the specifics of what you are posting. :no:

If you are going to use the FAA or its regulations as references, at least understand the details of those regulations before you post them as sources.
Both my Late Uncle and his son were Air Traffic Controllers.  One of the ATC's job is to track planes from point A to point B.  In order for there to have been ANY conspiracy whatsoever regarding Airliners of ANY company, it would have to involve ALL of the Air Traffic Controllers.  Default to:  Two men can keep a secret if one of them is dead. There is no conspiracy involving airliners.  NONE.  
When you add up all of the 'conspiracy' information:  From demolition explosions at WTC, to no airliner at the Pentagon, to the crash in Pennsylvania (being shot down)...and then you begin to calculate the VAST number of people that would have to be involved in that conspiracy...it begins to melt the mind faster than Thermite melts steel!
And don't forget the media...The Media who face punched Bush every single day of his Presidency.  If there was ANY evidence of ANY conspiracy, don't you think the Media would have been all over it?  I mean, seriously, step back and look at the big picture.

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#696    redhen

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Posted 24 January 2013 - 01:30 PM

View Postjoc, on 24 January 2013 - 01:02 PM, said:

And don't forget the media...The Media who face punched Bush every single day of his Presidency.  If there was ANY evidence of ANY conspiracy, don't you think the Media would have been all over it?  I mean, seriously, step back and look at the big picture.

This is why I started out requesting no links to pics, videos or docs. I just want a logically coherent and reasoned argument that establishes 911 was an inside job. And when put in this form, truther arguments fall apart badly.


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What prompted me to pose this challenge was all the posted pictures of the deceased Sandy Hook children and their alleged doppelgangers on conspiracy sites. At some point these parlour games of outdoing each other with conspiracy fantasies becomes distasteful. It irked me to have to post a link from the Moussaoui trial documents that shows pictures of charred bodies still strapped in their seats of flight 77, just to shut up these ideologues that claim there were no bodies.

And I blame Marxist professors who use their classrooms as a bully pulpit for indoctrinating the young and credulous.


#697    joc

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Posted 24 January 2013 - 01:41 PM

View Postredhen, on 24 January 2013 - 01:30 PM, said:


And I blame Marxist professors who use their classrooms as a bully pulpit for indoctrinating the young and credulous.
...and so, we have a five year old suspended from school for pointing his finger at a kid and saying bang.  The indoctrination begins a tad bit earlier than Marxist professors.  In the example (true example) of the above scenario, the child is taught, 'Guns are bad Johnny...even 'thinking' about guns is bad!  Don't even think for a second about ever owning a gun Johnny because guns are bad and if you 'think' about guns that makes you bad Johnny!'   And then Johnny goes home and instead of learning how to read and write he watches violence on TV.  And we wonder why so many people never learn cognitive thinking skills...

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#698    Q24

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Posted 24 January 2013 - 01:54 PM

View Postredhen, on 22 January 2013 - 08:34 PM, said:

There's nothing that shows a conspiracy. All it shows is the usual government incompetence. And speculation, lots of speculation.

It is not intended to show a conspiracy, and neither does it necessarily show incompetence – your over eagerness to jump to a preferred conclusion is noted again – either of those conclusions at this point are, I agree, speculation, and I’d say premature.  The evidence offered and presented, at your request, shows exactly what it says – we will get to that below - sets out a number of facts and leaves a number of questions.  It is only with these facts and questions established that we can draw an informed and fitting conclusion.

Ok, so I agree that the evidence offered does not make a conspiracy apparent.  What facts can we agree that it does make apparent?

The CIA had an interest in and monitored the future hijackers prior to 9/11.
The CIA deterred an FBI agent from reporting those terrorists to FBI HQ prior to 9/11.
The CIA prevented an FBI agent taking action in the U.S. against those terrorists prior to 9/11.
That the FBI agent believed the terrorists received ‘protection’ from the U.S. system (as did Richard Clarke).
The CIA knew of those terrorists inside the U.S. prior to 9/11.

In addition, I touched on it in my last post, do you agree that a Saudi government agent met and assisted the future hijackers inside the United States, providing funds, along with contact information for accommodation (where the landlord so happened to be a U.S. intelligence informant) and flight schools?

I don’t see that any of this can be disputed, but would like to know if we can agree facts like these before we proceed.


View Postredhen, on 22 January 2013 - 08:34 PM, said:

"Clarke speculates—and readily admits he cannot prove—that the CIA withheld the information because the agency had been trying to recruit the terrorists, while they were living in Southern California under their own names, to work as CIA agents inside Al Qaeda"

That the CIA withheld information and obstructed the FBI is not in question.  This is seen, in addition to that already posted,from  a June 2001 quote from FBI agent Bongardt:  “What’s the story with the Almihdhar information, when is it going to get passed, do we have anything yet, when is it going to get passed?”  Stand up rows occurred between this FBI agent and agents of the CIA bin Laden unit over restrictions on information.

The speculation from Clarke is in answering the reason why this situation of CIA restriction, deterrence and prevention existed surrounding the terrorists.  Whether Clarke’s speculation is correct or not - that “the only conceivable reason” he could come up with is that the CIA were attempting to recruit the terrorists – is not important, and incidentally I, like you, do not necessarily agree with him.

The actual facts that should be taken from this are the willful CIA restriction, deterrence and prevention – actions which demonstrate that the CIA had a keen interest in and ongoing operation of their own surrounding the terrorists prior to 9/11.

Can we agree to that?

Can we agree that without that CIA interest and operation, Al Mihdhar would have had the FBI all over him?  Can we agree that would put Al Mihdhar in great danger of never making it to 9/11?  Can we agree that the CIA, the reason not important at the moment, paved an FBI-unhindered way for Al Mihdhar to 9/11?

Please read this to reinforce the obvious answer: -

Even more than 18 months before 9/11, an FBI agent, Mark Rossini, seconded to the CIA bin Laden unit overseas, aware of Al Mihdhar and Al Hazmi’s terrorist background and attendance at the January 2000 Al Qaeda summit, said to the CIA, “What's going on?  You know, we've got to tell the Bureau about this.  These guys clearly are bad. One of them, at least, has a multiple-entry visa to the U.S. We've got to tell the FBI.”  The CIA forbid his request and Rossini feared for his position if he ignored the order.  After 9/11, Rossini reflected, “I can't come up with a rational reason why I didn't break the rules, pick up the phone, and tell that the hijackers, or really bad guys, are in the U.S. And I don't know if I'll ever be able to come to terms with that. I don't know. I really don't know.”

Rossini was put in that situation by the CIA.

FBI agent Steve Bongardt, upon learning of the hijacker identities:  “This is the same Almihdhar we’ve been talking about for three months!” In an attempt to console him, his boss replies, “We did everything by the book.” Now that Bongardt is allowed to conduct a basic Internet search for Almihdhar that he had been denied permission to conduct before 9/11, he finds the hijacker’s address “within hours.”

Bongardt was put in that situation by the CIA.

Another FBI agent, Ali Soufan, aware of the case and danger posed before 9/11, when told of the attackers identities, “ran to the bathroom, fell to the floor next to a toilet and threw up, unable to comprehend why the CIA had withheld such key intelligence for more than a year.”

Soufan was put in that situation by the CIA.

Again I don’t see that any of the facts I have asked you to agree can be disputed, but would like to know if we can agree before we proceed.

As always, the above information is available online and specific sources can be provided if required.

Operation Northwoods was a 1962 plan by the US Department of Defense to cause acts of violence, blamed on Cuba, in order to generate U.S. public support for military action against the Cuban government. The plan called for various false flag actions, such as staged terrorist attacks and plane hijackings, on U.S. and Cuban soil.

#699    Babe Ruth

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Posted 24 January 2013 - 02:09 PM

View Postskyeagle409, on 24 January 2013 - 01:12 AM, said:

But, I do!!

Did you really think that American Airlines and United Airlines would have allowed their aircraft to undergo such modifications? How amusing that you seem to think so, which underlines the point that when you post FAA regulations as references, you do not understand the specifics of what you are posting. :no:

If you are going to use the FAA or its regulations as references, at least understand the details of those regulations before you post them as sources.

For what it's worth Sky, my own theory is that the airplanes involved at WTC (there were no Boeings at Shanksville & Pentagon) did not belong to United and American.  My theory is that at least one (not certain about the other) was drawn from a fleet of 767 tanker candidates delivered to MacDill some years previously.

Pallidin

The F-18 incident Sky and I discuss was a video he put up here last year of an F-18 crashing into an apartment complex or building of some sort.  At first I believed it to be true, simply because I was new here and had trusted Sky.  Later research revealed it to be faked.  In his defense, Sky did admit to the fakeness WHEN CHALLENGED.

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#700    Babe Ruth

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Posted 24 January 2013 - 02:15 PM

View Postjoc, on 24 January 2013 - 01:02 PM, said:

Both my Late Uncle and his son were Air Traffic Controllers.  One of the ATC's job is to track planes from point A to point B.  In order for there to have been ANY conspiracy whatsoever regarding Airliners of ANY company, it would have to involve ALL of the Air Traffic Controllers.  Default to:  Two men can keep a secret if one of them is dead. There is no conspiracy involving airliners.  NONE.  
When you add up all of the 'conspiracy' information:  From demolition explosions at WTC, to no airliner at the Pentagon, to the crash in Pennsylvania (being shot down)...and then you begin to calculate the VAST number of people that would have to be involved in that conspiracy...it begins to melt the mind faster than Thermite melts steel!
And don't forget the media...The Media who face punched Bush every single day of his Presidency.  If there was ANY evidence of ANY conspiracy, don't you think the Media would have been all over it?  I mean, seriously, step back and look at the big picture.

By definition JOC, unless you are claiming that only 1 person was involved in the attacks, there certainly WAS a conspiracy.  That is, a group of humans CONSPIRED to commit the crimes of the day.

The only real question JOC, if we are allowed to use proper definitions here, is just exactly who the conspirators were?  Were they 19 arabs with box cutters?  Or were they conspirators somebody else, unknown to us at this moment?

Common Sense requires that the case against the 19 arabs with box cutters is poor and invalid.  From impossible cell phone calls to missing airliners in some locations, the Official Conspiracy Theory cannot be proved.

That leaves the field wide open for all sorts of other theories, and that's what we have.


#701    joc

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Posted 24 January 2013 - 02:16 PM

View PostBabe Ruth, on 24 January 2013 - 02:09 PM, said:

My theory is that at least one (not certain about the other) was drawn from a fleet of 767 tanker candidates delivered to MacDill some years previously.
If your theory is correct, why didn't we hear from any Air Traffic Controllers?  Wouldn't at least one have said, 'Hey, wait a minute, we have all the planes accounted for?'
Are we really to believe that it is possible to fake a hijacking like that?  Not only is it not plausible, it is ridiculous.

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#702    Babe Ruth

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Posted 24 January 2013 - 02:26 PM

View Postjoc, on 24 January 2013 - 02:16 PM, said:

If your theory is correct, why didn't we hear from any Air Traffic Controllers?  Wouldn't at least one have said, 'Hey, wait a minute, we have all the planes accounted for?'
Are we really to believe that it is possible to fake a hijacking like that?  Not only is it not plausible, it is ridiculous.

It's real easy when the radar scopes the ATC guys are watching happen to be spoofed electronically.  Have you ever heard of Ptech software?  It was installed on the computers of many federal agencies, including the FAA.

Did you ever hear the story about the FAA supervisor, as I remember in New York Center, who destroyed the audio tapes of the first and most critical exchanges between NEADS and FAA?  Probably not, because it sure as heck was not on the mainstream media.

But at least one controller came forward and told the story.  I do not know exactly what was on the tape, but its destruction is typical for the suppression of evidence by the government in this story.


#703    redhen

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Posted 24 January 2013 - 03:45 PM

View PostQ24, on 24 January 2013 - 01:54 PM, said:

It is not intended to show a conspiracy, and neither does it necessarily show incompetence – your over eagerness to jump to a preferred conclusion is noted again – either of those conclusions at this point are, I agree, speculation, and I’d say premature.  

So if you don't think it's a conspiracy or the usual government ineptitude, what do you think it's all about?

Quote

Ok, so I agree that the evidence offered does not make a conspiracy apparent.  What facts can we agree that it does make apparent?

The CIA had an interest in and monitored the future hijackers prior to 9/11.
The CIA deterred an FBI agent from reporting those terrorists to FBI HQ prior to 9/11.
The CIA prevented an FBI agent taking action in the U.S. against those terrorists prior to 9/11.

Granted

Quote

That the FBI agent believed the terrorists received ‘protection’ from the U.S. system (as did Richard Clarke).
The CIA knew of those terrorists inside the U.S. prior to 9/11.

Belief is not knowledge.

Quote

In addition, I touched on it in my last post, do you agree that a Saudi government agent met and assisted the future hijackers inside the United States, providing funds, along with contact information for accommodation (where the landlord so happened to be a U.S. intelligence informant) and flight schools?

I don't know, but it sounds highly plausible to me. (side note; how come no truthers have jumped all over the facts about Saudi nobility being whisked safely out of the U.S. immediately after the attacks? If I was a truther, I'd be all over it.

Quote

That the CIA withheld information and obstructed the FBI is not in question.  

Granted

Quote

The actual facts that should be taken from this are the willful CIA restriction, deterrence and prevention – actions which demonstrate that the CIA had a keen interest in and ongoing operation of their own surrounding the terrorists prior to 9/11.

Can we agree to that?

Agreed

Quote

Can we agree that without that CIA interest and operation, Al Mihdhar would have had the FBI all over him?  Can we agree that would put Al Mihdhar in great danger of never making it to 9/11?  Can we agree that the CIA, the reason not important at the moment, paved an FBI-unhindered way for Al Mihdhar to 9/11?

Agreed

Quote

Again I don’t see that any of the facts I have asked you to agree can be disputed, but would like to know if we can agree before we proceed.

Ok, now that that's done, feel free to speculate.

I still think it's government ineptitude; bureaucrats not willing to share info with other departments, directors treating their branches as their own little fiefdoms, and the usual CYA attitude (cover your ass).


#704    skyeagle409

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Posted 24 January 2013 - 07:51 PM

View Postjoc, on 24 January 2013 - 01:02 PM, said:

Both my Late Uncle and his son were Air Traffic Controllers.  One of the ATC's job is to track planes from point A to point B.  In order for there to have been ANY conspiracy whatsoever regarding Airliners of ANY company, it would have to involve ALL of the Air Traffic Controllers.  Default to:  Two men can keep a secret if one of them is dead. There is no conspiracy involving airliners.  NONE.  
When you add up all of the 'conspiracy' information:  From demolition explosions at WTC, to no airliner at the Pentagon, to the crash in Pennsylvania (being shot down)...and then you begin to calculate the VAST number of people that would have to be involved in that conspiracy...it begins to melt the mind faster than Thermite melts steel!
And don't forget the media...The Media who face punched Bush every single day of his Presidency.  If there was ANY evidence of ANY conspiracy, don't you think the Media would have been all over it?  I mean, seriously, step back and look at the big picture.

There are those who have said the airliners were switched, but how can airliners be switched without accounting for the airframe, passengers and crew of the original aircraft? Some folks do not realize that having two B-767s from the same airline and same tail number is going to create a bit of a  problem, not only on the ground, but in the sky as well. What would happen if an airliners with the same tail number as another airliner already at the airport calls in for permission to land? For an example, United 123UA is sitting at the gate at Boston airport and a bogus United 123UA request permission to land from the same air traffic controller who cleared the real United 123UA to land two hours earlier at same airport? The question after that point is, how quickly can United Airlines, airport officials, the FAA and FBI react and converge on that particular aircraft after it lands?

A  simple check of its flight plan, communications tapes and radar data can trace the aircraft back to its embarkation point and if the aircraft was flown at low altitude to avoid radar detection, that will raise questions from ATC as the aircraft enters airspace control zones, not to mention that low altitude flying might anger duck hunters who might vent their anger by firing off their pop guns at the low-flying aircraft.

You would think that United Airlines would have noticed of a bogus United 123UA before servicing personnel and airline employees begin to ask questions, not to mention the airline receiving a bill for tie down, ramp and gate fees for the bogus United 123UA .

We can add receipts for services rendered at the airport to determine the true identity of the bogus United 123UA , but a simple check of logbooks of each aircraft would be enough to set off the alarm bells because each engine has its own individual flight and maintenance histories on file with the manufacturer and the airline, which is information that can be used to determine the true identity of the bogus United 123UA .

There would be a huge number of people involved in the 911 government conspiracy, and each subject to life prison terms and the death penalty, but it would take only one person talking in his sleep to blow the whole operation, especially if his wife is angry about not getting that sports car she always wanted.

As far as thermite is concern, it is not as effective as RDX, and even the use of RDX by demolition companies requires many months of preparation, structural pre-weakening and the use of explosives in the implosion process. If anyone has visited the WTC buildings before they were struck, they would see how ridicules it would have been to try to plant thousands upon thousands of pounds of explosives hundreds of feet above ground level in an attempt to bring down the buildings.

Edited by skyeagle409, 24 January 2013 - 07:59 PM.

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#705    joc

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Posted 24 January 2013 - 07:55 PM

View PostBabe Ruth, on 24 January 2013 - 02:26 PM, said:

It's real easy when the radar scopes the ATC guys are watching happen to be spoofed electronically.  Have you ever heard of Ptech software?  It was installed on the computers of many federal agencies, including the FAA.
Never heard of it.

Quote

Did you ever hear the story about the FAA supervisor, as I remember in New York Center, who destroyed the audio tapes of the first and most critical exchanges between NEADS and FAA?  Probably not, because it sure as heck was not on the mainstream media.
Never heard that story either...but I'm pretty sure that the Media is not in the back pocket of George W. Bush, or was Bush is Hitler ranting day in and day out part of the 'conspiracy' as well?

Quote

But at least one controller came forward and told the story.  I do not know exactly what was on the tape, but its destruction is typical for the suppression of evidence by the government in this story.
...and let me guess...now he's dead?

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