401 replies to this topic

[Yamato]

Sky Scanner, on 07 January 2013 - 01:50 PM, said:

Well it was obvious to me what they meant, since you can't remove the act from the act itself, so there is only one meaning behind it imo.

Removing the act from the act itself, and it was still obvious to you.  Whatever.  I'm sorry it wasn't obvious to me and that irritated you.   You can't have rape without force and you can't have rape without sex.  It's definitive, it's not my opinion.

[Yamato]

Lilly, on 07 January 2013 - 01:50 PM, said:

This:

[/indent]

Pretty much negates the vast majority of what's being presented here.

And the research supports it.

There has been considerable research in recent times on the role of cognitive variables among the set of factors that can lead to rape. Sexually violent men have been shown to be more likely to consider victims responsible for the rape and are less knowledgeable about the impact of rape on victims.^[24] Such men may misread cues given out by women in social situations and may lack the inhibitions that act to suppress associations between sex and aggression.^[24] They may have coercive sexual fantasies,^[25] and overall are more hostile towards women than are men who are not sexually violent.^[5][26][27] In addition to these factors, sexually violent men are believed to differ from other men in terms of impulsivity and antisocial tendencies.^[28] They also tend to have an exaggerated sense of masculinity. Sexual violence is also associated with a preference for impersonal sexual relationships as opposed to emotional bonding^{[dubious – discuss]}, with having many sexual partners and with the inclination to assert personal interests at the expense of others.^[27][29] A further association is with adversarial attitudes on gender, that hold that women are opponents to be challenged and conquered.^[30]

• ^ ^{a b} Drieschner K, Lange A (1999). "A review of cognitive factors in the aetiology of rape: theories, empirical studies and implications". Clinical Psychology Review 19 (1): 57–77. PMID 9987584.
  
• ^ Dean KE, Malamuth NM. Characteristics of men who aggress sexually and of men who imagine aggressing: risk and moderating variables|journal=Journal of Personality and Social Psychology|year=1997, 72:449–455.
  
• ^ Koss, MP; Dinero, TE (1989). "Discriminant analysis of risk factors for sexual victimisation among a national sample of college women". Journal of Consulting and Clinical Psychology 57 (2): 242–50. PMID 2708612.
  
• ^ ^{a b} Malamuth NM (1998). "A multidimensional approach to sexual aggression: combining measures of past behavior and present likelihood". Annals of the New York Academy of Science 528: 113–146. doi:10.1111/j.1749-6632.1988.tb50855.x.
  
• ^ ^{a b c} Crowell NA, Burgess AW (eds.) Understanding violence against women. Washington, DC, National Academy Press, 1996.
  
• ^ Malamuth NM et al. (1991). "The characteristics of aggressors against women: testing a model using a national sample of college students". Journal of Consulting and Clinical Psychology 59 (5): 670–681. doi:10.1037/0022-006X.59.5.670. PMID 1955602.
  
• ^ Lisak, David; Roth, Susan (1990). "Motives and psychodynamics of selfreported, unincarcerated rapists". Journal of Personality and Social Psychology 60 (2): 584–589. doi:10.1037/h0079178.

http://en.wikipedia....nvicted_rapists

[Sky Scanner]

Yamato, on 07 January 2013 - 01:52 PM, said:

I know what the factors are, that's why my principle holds water.   Preventable decisions and personal behavior causes rape.  That's important to know and understand and if you don't understand it, then you're the one that hasn't looked at the data.

You haven't even cited sources yourself, you came here starting rhetorical banter and personal argument with me.  The Pot calling the Kettle.

http://en.wikipedia....sexual_violence

*bolding mine

You know what, that is as dumb as dumb can get, tell that to the 90yr old raped in her bed...even your own link disagrees with you...i'm through with this, you're not baiting me anymore...a dumb discussion with someone lacking the intelligence to follow through simple logic...i'm out, chat to someone else about it...

[Lilly]

Yamato, on 07 January 2013 - 01:52 PM, said:

I know what the factors are, that's why my principle holds water.   Preventable decisions and personal behavior causes rape...

No, your principle does not hold water (it's more like a sieve). Some "preventable decisions and personal behavior(s)" can make being raped less of a risk. But, to completely eradicate the risk one would have to be locked up outside of society...not just dressed in a covered up manner. The "cause" of rape, however, falls totally/completely/100% upon the rapist. Apply this logic to other crimes and everyone would eventually have to be in a form of 'lock down' becasue we'd not be able to venture out into society without becoming violently robbed/assaulted.

[Yamato]

Sky Scanner, on 07 January 2013 - 02:01 PM, said:

*bolding mine

You know what, that is as dumb as dumb can get, tell that to the 90yr old raped in her bed...even your own link disagrees with you...i'm through with this, you're not baiting me anymore...a dumb discussion with someone lacking the intelligence to follow through simple logic...i'm out, chat to someone else about it...

It's dumb to you because you are incapable of understanding personal responsibility in the case of rape.  I hope for your own safety you're able to do so in other matters.   My own link doesn't disagree with me. It shows that rapists are twisted in their understanding of sex, get their violent sexual wires crossed and misread cues in social situations.  

I'm sorry if you don't agree that eliciting a sexual response in these violent perverts is dangerous.   Again, we can agree to disagree.

[Yamato]

Lilly, on 07 January 2013 - 02:05 PM, said:

No, your principle does not hold water (it's more like a sieve). Some "preventable decisions and personal behavior(s)" can make being raped less of a risk. But, to completely eradicate the risk one would have to be locked up outside of society...not just dressed in a covered up manner. The "cause" of rape, however, falls totally/completely/100% upon the rapist. Apply this logic to other crimes and everyone would eventually have to be in a form of 'lock down' becasue we'd not be able to venture out into society without becoming violently robbed/assaulted.

I would never speak of impossible idealism that is "totally eradicating" a risk.   The guilt, blame, responsibility of the rape apply 100% upon the rapist.  The responsibility of preventing the rape applies to us all.

[Lilly]

Yamato, on 07 January 2013 - 01:59 PM, said:

And the research supports it.

There has been considerable research in recent times on the role of cognitive variables among the set of factors that can lead to rape...

How does citing the psychological illness/dysfunction of rapists support the notion that their victims are somehow responsible for the crime of rape?

[Yamato]

Lilly, on 07 January 2013 - 02:17 PM, said:

How does citing the psychological illness/dysfunction of rapists support the notion that their victims are somehow responsible for the crime of rape?

Lilly seriously, I didn't say that they were somehow responsible for the crime.  I've repeated to the point of nausea that they're not.   Victims aren't responsible for crimes.  All people are responsible for themselves INDEPENDENT OF CRIME.   We can prevent rape if we allow ourselves to understand that sex is intrinsically and definitively a part of this crime whether we cite the definition in the dictionary or the psychological illness/dysfunction of rapists.

[Lilly]

The thing is that rape really isn't about sex...it's about the violence/control/power. One could say that the sexual act is sublimated into an act of violence. Also, to say that everyone is responsible for preventing rape is irrational. Sure, there are choices each person can make to lower their risk (don't walk drunk down a dark alley way for example) but that's not going to always prevent one from being raped...especially when potential rapists may not be easily identified (family members, people of authority, clergymen etc). The prevention of rape has to be remediated by the same standards and criteria that we apply to other violent crimes. Basically, punishment has to similar to that of other violent crimes, victims of rape should not be seen as being complicit, this crime should not be 'swept under the rug' as it currently is.

[Yamato]

Lilly, on 07 January 2013 - 02:47 PM, said:

The thing is that rape really isn't about sex...it's about the violence/control/power. One could say that the sexual act is sublimated into an act of violence. Also, to say that everyone is responsible for preventing rape is irrational. Sure, there are choices each person can make to lower their risk (don't walk drunk down a dark alley way for example) but that's not going to always prevent one from being raped...especially when potential rapists may not be easily identified (family members, people of authority, clergymen etc). The prevention of rape has to be remediated by the same standards and criteria that we apply to other violent crimes. Basically, punishment has to similar to that of other violent crimes, victims of rape should not be seen as being complicit, this crime should not be 'swept under the rug' as it currently is.

Violence, control, and power through sex.   Sexual acts and acts of violence aren't mutually exclusive.   It isn't a sexual act first and then a violent act later.  It doesn't have to sublimate or change into something else.  It starts out as sex without consent and it ends that way too.   It's not irrational to prevent crimes.   I think you're right that rape should be treated by the same standards and criteria as other violent crimes.  Why wouldn't we?   Reporting, proving, punishing, and preventing.  Learning how to defend ourselves is important to prevent violent crimes including rape as you can physically disable your attacker before the rape even begins.   "The rapist is always to blame for the rape" is a true statement, but it's not a rational reason not to protect ourselves.

And others.  If I see a rape in progress or one about to start, I'm going to intervene.  Irrational?  I don't have that responsibility?   Yes, we do.   If you don't want to get involved physically, pick up your cell phone and call the police and at least try to follow the attacker or stay with them.   What's irrational are these internet videos where people are so clueless about their own civic duty, there's a violent crime occurring right in front of their faces and they just ignore it and walk away so ignorantly they might as well be prosecuted for criminal negligence.  I would be enraged at seeing some good-for-nothing excuse for a citizen do that if it was done to my friend or relation.

That rape is underreported is even more reason to be preventative; because it's even more common than we know.

[socrates.junior]

@Lilly I would love to see the facts in the myths vs. facts. There are some citations, for things like the number of rapes, etc. But the "facts" are sadly lacking when we come to the myth that directly relates to the discussion here.

Quote

Rapists look for victims they perceive as vulnerable, not women who dress in a particular way. Assuming that women provoke attacks by where they are or the way they dress is victim-blaming. No person, whatever their behaviour, "deserves" to be raped.

Oh no, he said "victim-blaming", that should shut down all discussion on the topic. If I wanted an opinion, I'd read this topic. Which I have.

@SkyScanner The fact that clothing "may" "in some cases" be a factor in rape means that YES, it CAN BE A FACTOR. Mother of pearl, where do you get off twisting that into me saying that it's the only factor. Obviously it isn't. But it CAN BE. Repeat after me.

[Saru]

Given the amount of problems, disagreements and bickering this thread is generating I think it's time we put this to bed before things get any worse, it's a sensitive topic and carrying on at this point isn't going to facilitate anything constructive.

Closed.