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SETI search shows no signs of intell. life


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#76    badeskov

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Posted 13 April 2013 - 01:52 AM

View Postonereaderone, on 13 April 2013 - 01:26 AM, said:

oh  my...   all  the  acr welders  on  this  planet...   and  your  listening   for   camp  fire  songs?

we  do  not  need  to hear  a  talk radio  broadcast ...  we  only  need  to  hear  a genarator  running  ,  a  arc welder...   a  transmission  line  with a bad  insulator ...

i  do  not  need  to  hear  a language  that  i  will  never  understand....   i  just  want  to  hear  something like   a  voice  in  the  dark  of  the  night  sky...  that  says ...   there  is  anything  out  there ...

right  this  moment , there  is  not  any  reason  to  beleive  that   there  is  any  form  of  life in  space ...

which  means... either  there  is  something  very special  about   where  we  stand....   or  there  is  something  special  about  every  where  we  are not ....

Except that you won't "hear" an arc welder very far out.That said there is plenty of reason to believe that there is life outside of our planet - if we detected it, however, we wouldn't need to believe - we would know.

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Badeskov

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#77    Esoteric Toad

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Posted 13 April 2013 - 02:21 AM

What if the advance aliens do not have ears, communicate via color, movement or smell? This could drastically affect their evolution of communication devices. Color for instance could cause communications to take the form of light up to powerful lasers for interplanetary communication...skipping the radio/microwave communications. I cannot imagine how smell would be handled. If they were aquatic there might be no communication beyond the waters they live in.

I only brought up the point because we tend to think in a very 'human' way about potentially extremely unhuman critters. JMO.


#78    Admiral Rhubarb

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Posted 13 April 2013 - 07:02 AM

View Postonereaderone, on 13 April 2013 - 01:26 AM, said:

oh  my...   all  the  acr welders  on  this  planet...   and  your  listening   for   camp  fire  songs?

we  do  not  need  to hear  a  talk radio  broadcast ...  we  only  need  to  hear  a genarator  running  ,  a  arc welder...   a  transmission  line  with a bad  insulator ...

i  do  not  need  to  hear  a language  that  i  will  never  understand....   i  just  want  to  hear  something like   a  voice  in  the  dark  of  the  night  sky...  that  says ...   there  is  anything  out  there ...

How do you suggest doing that from (even with the stars right next door) several light years away?

Life is a hideous business, and from the background behind what we know of it peer daemoniacal hints of truth which make it sometimes a thousandfold more hideous.

H. P. Lovecraft.


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#79    Admiral Rhubarb

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Posted 13 April 2013 - 07:03 AM

View PostEsoteric Toad, on 13 April 2013 - 02:21 AM, said:

What if the advance aliens do not have ears, communicate via color, movement or smell? This could drastically affect their evolution of communication devices. Color for instance could cause communications to take the form of light up to powerful lasers for interplanetary communication...skipping the radio/microwave communications. I cannot imagine how smell would be handled. If they were aquatic there might be no communication beyond the waters they live in.

I only brought up the point because we tend to think in a very 'human' way about potentially extremely unhuman critters. JMO.
Well, exactly. once again, look at Dolphins, or bats, or Ants. They might communicate through pheromones, or telepathy.

Life is a hideous business, and from the background behind what we know of it peer daemoniacal hints of truth which make it sometimes a thousandfold more hideous.

H. P. Lovecraft.


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#80    Frank Merton

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Posted 13 April 2013 - 07:43 AM

Actually, pheromones and sound waves are ways humans communicate.  Something un-human might be radio, but we found that.  It's hard to imagine and probably false to insist that they would use something we have no knowledge of.

Gravity waves and neutrinos exist as remote possibilities, but they would offer no partular advantage over radio and be a lot more expensive.


#81    Admiral Rhubarb

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Posted 13 April 2013 - 08:09 AM

View PostFrank Merton, on 13 April 2013 - 07:43 AM, said:

Actually, pheromones and sound waves are ways humans communicate. Something un-human might be radio, but we found that. It's hard to imagine and probably false to insist that they would use something we have no knowledge of.

Gravity waves and neutrinos exist as remote possibilities, but they would offer no partular advantage over radio and be a lot more expensive. {C}
but they woudln't be detecatble over the vast distances of space, is the point. Nor would electromagnetic noise that wasn't specifically directed at us, by a very powerful transmitter.

Life is a hideous business, and from the background behind what we know of it peer daemoniacal hints of truth which make it sometimes a thousandfold more hideous.

H. P. Lovecraft.


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#82    Hazzard

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Posted 13 April 2013 - 10:39 AM

While its interesting to imagine how far our radio signals have traveled into space, its extremely unlikely that an alien planet will be able to catch the latest episode of I love Lucy. This is thanks to the inverse square law. In "English", its a form of signal degradation.

Because of this inverse square law, all of our radio signals become indistinguishable from background noise at around a few light-years from earth.

I still await the compelling Exhibit A.

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#83    AsteroidX

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Posted 13 April 2013 - 10:45 AM

Our early and current form of comms would be like turning a high powered fan to any ET's trying to communicate along the same frequency. Probably more disruptive and agitating then anything IMO. They likely if they are out there using trans stellar comms can avoid us hearing there comms. Again just IMO.


#84    mcrom901

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Posted 13 April 2013 - 11:18 AM

View PostHazzard, on 13 April 2013 - 10:39 AM, said:

Because of this inverse square law, all of our radio signals become indistinguishable from background noise at around a few light-years from earth.

and what's with the 2nd law of thermodynamics which kaku mentions about... do those energy signatures also dissolve in oblivion?


eta.... ^^ applies to 'type-2' civilizations and i had not recalled it clearly...


"With their energy output comparable to that of a small star, they should be visible from space. Dyson has proposed that a Type II civilization may even build a gigantic sphere around their star to more efficiently utilize its total energy output. Even if they try to conceal their existence, they must, by the Second Law of Thermodynamics, emit waste heat. From outer space, their planet may glow like a Christmas tree ornament. Dyson has even proposed looking specifically for infrared emissions (rather than radio and TV) to identify these Type II civilizations." - http://mkaku.org/home/?page_id=246

Edited by mcrom901, 13 April 2013 - 11:22 AM.


#85    Hazzard

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Posted 13 April 2013 - 11:34 AM

View Postmcrom901, on 13 April 2013 - 11:18 AM, said:

and what's with the 2nd law of thermodynamics which kaku mentions about... do those energy signatures also dissolve in oblivion?


eta.... ^^ applies to 'type-2' civilizations and i had not recalled it clearly...


"With their energy output comparable to that of a small star, they should be visible from space. Dyson has proposed that a Type II civilization may even build a gigantic sphere around their star to more efficiently utilize its total energy output. Even if they try to conceal their existence, they must, by the Second Law of Thermodynamics, emit waste heat. From outer space, their planet may glow like a Christmas tree ornament. Dyson has even proposed looking specifically for infrared emissions (rather than radio and TV) to identify these Type II civilizations." - http://mkaku.org/home/?page_id=246


Or what about a,... Type III "A civilization in possession of energy on the scale of its own galaxy, with energy consumption at ≈4×1044 erg/sec." Lemarchand stated this as "A civilization with access to the power comparable to the luminosity of the entire Milky Way galaxy, about 4 × 1037 Watts."

I still await the compelling Exhibit A.

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#86    Frank Merton

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Posted 13 April 2013 - 11:52 AM

View PostColonel Rhuairidh, on 13 April 2013 - 08:09 AM, said:

but they woudln't be detecatble over the vast distances of space, is the point. Nor would electromagnetic noise that wasn't specifically directed at us, by a very powerful transmitter.
It depends on how advanced a society it is.  Our radio if feeble, but if we wanted to talk (talk isn't really the word -- transmit information) to a large distributed culture, it would be powerful enough that we would detect it.


#87    Frank Merton

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Posted 13 April 2013 - 12:02 PM

The more I think about it the more persuaded I become that the reason they aren't out there and haven't been here is that at some point everyone discovers inner space (perhaps just virtual realities but perhaps some technology that involves having one's own dimensions).

Another possibility is they all become traditional Buddhist monks -- now that would shut down science fast enough.


#88    Lilly

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Posted 13 April 2013 - 03:07 PM

View Postbadeskov, on 13 April 2013 - 01:15 AM, said:




...Actually, to the best of my knowledge Drake's equation suggests no such thing. Drake's equation is merely a probability spelled out and whatever it suggests is solely based on the numbers stuffed into it. Numbers we can currently only offer guesses towards.

Correct, the Drake Equation is a formula that allows one to figure probability based on various factors that could lead to intelligent civilizations. Much of the equation's variables are simply guess work due to our not having specific information. In others words, the Drake Equation just allows us to make an "educated guess".

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#89    Frank Merton

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Posted 13 April 2013 - 03:17 PM

I must admit that I have always looked at the Drake Equation as a waste of time: an attempt to link an illusion of precion to something where precision is impossible.  One can even question whether or not he has adequately captured all the variables.


#90    Tutankhaten-pasheri

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Posted 13 April 2013 - 03:25 PM

And all the equipment that is used for SETI, it is trained on the cosmos, and not at Earth? I simply wondered is all, about not detecting any intelligent life.....





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