165 replies to this topic

[redhen]

freetoroam, on 16 February 2013 - 04:06 PM, said:

Sorry, did not see the documentary, but will have a look, thankyou.

Yes it seems no one else watched it. Otherwise people would have objected that the video shows abnormalities in slaughterhouse practices. But I submit that these horrors happen routinely. In the U.S. humane farming legislation it has a paragraph that explains how to look for signs of consciousness, and if these signs are existent, the animal is to be stunned again. All too often animals are cut up, bit by bit, fully conscious.

Quote

I will beg to differ on the eating meat is cruel, but respect your own personal view.

It's not my opinion, it's a logical conclusion. Governments around the world exclude cattle and lab animals from cruelty laws because of tradition and economic factors. It is cruel nonetheless.

Quote

My grandmother lived off her land, she grew all her own vegetables...

So did mine. I'm sure some of my ancestors also owned slaves. This is an appeal to tradition, and it is a logical fallacy.

Quote

Humans have always hunted for food, and meat has been part of that.

Again, appeal to tradition.

Quote

I am glad that we do not all have to kill animals in an inhumane way,

There is no such thing as humane slaughter, anymore than there is humane slavery.

Quote

but am still shocked at the fact that rituals like halal are still allowed to sell the meat in the western world.

Yes, some cultures are more advanced than others.

[freetoroam]

redhen, on 16 February 2013 - 04:38 PM, said:

So did mine. I'm sure some of my ancestors also owned slaves. This is an appeal to tradition, and it is a logical fallacy.

Slaves? not sure what thats got to do with eating meat.  I know Africa has a pretty horrific history of keeping slaves, not sure if they ate them?  and have heard of cannibalism amongst many of the people within certain tribes, is this the connection?

[Frank Merton]

The fact is that something few thought morally wrong just a couple centuries ago -- slavery -- is generally condemned today.  I think the vegetarian types would like to get something similar applied to animals.  I've already posted why I don't think the two are comparable.

As a general rule we get into trouble when we start trying to apply personal morality to public policy.  Public policy and private morality often end up in the same place, but one is private, the other is the broad interest of society.  The distinction is needed or every religion would be trying to enforce their moral views on non-believers (not that they don't do it already, but at least in some countries the courts intervene and stop them).

[redhen]

freetoroam, on 16 February 2013 - 04:49 PM, said:

Slaves? not sure what thats got to do with eating meat.  I know Africa has a pretty horrific history of keeping slaves, not sure if they ate them?  and have heard of cannibalism amongst many of the people within certain tribes, is this the connection?

"a common fallacy in which a thesis is deemed correct on the basis that it correlates with some past or present tradition. The appeal takes the form of "this is right because we've always done it this way."

http://en.wikipedia....al_to_tradition

So, you can't justify your meat consumption because your grandmother raised and ate animals.

[freetoroam]

redhen, on 16 February 2013 - 07:17 PM, said:

"a common fallacy in which a thesis is deemed correct on the basis that it correlates with some past or present tradition. The appeal takes the form of "this is right because we've always done it this way."

http://en.wikipedia....al_to_tradition

So, you can't justify your meat consumption because your grandmother raised and ate animals.

haha, no, I do not need to justify eating meat, was just mentioning it in passing.
I eat meat because of my craving for it, call it a natural homo sapien  thing still running through my blood...i don`t know!

Edited by freetoroam, 16 February 2013 - 08:11 PM.

[redhen]

freetoroam, on 16 February 2013 - 08:08 PM, said:

haha, no, I do not need to justify eating meat, was just mentioning it in passing.
I eat meat because of my craving for it, call it a natural homo sapien  thing still running through my blood...i don`t know!

Ok, that's fair enough. I would bet that most meat eaters cannot morally justify their behaviour. I just wanted to point out the moral schizophrenia involved between the animals we dote on and the ones we eat. I think that's the basis of this whole horse meat story.

[freetoroam]

redhen, on 16 February 2013 - 09:51 PM, said:

Ok, that's fair enough. I would bet that most meat eaters cannot morally justify their behaviour. I just wanted to point out the moral schizophrenia involved between the animals we dote on and the ones we eat. I think that's the basis of this whole horse meat story.

Not sure about the doting?
Horses used to be the main worker on the land, thats all changed now. To me eating pig or cow is no different from people eating horses in other countries, the only difference is our culture, many of us in England will still not eat horse meat.  But may people in other countries will not eat pig or cow for the same reasons.

I do not eat an animal which I have doted on, similar to a fisherman eating the fish he has caught for his dinner, no doting was involved with it first.

Remember the story about the plane crash in the Andes? No moral schizophrenia was involved there.

I eat to survive and part of the food I eat happens to be meat.

Edited by freetoroam, 16 February 2013 - 10:45 PM.

[Soccergirl13]

I dont think the dillema is what we are eating. To each there own, if you like horse or just vegetables go ahead.
The real issue here is that people ate something that was not declared on the package. Doesnt matter if its horse,fish or rabbit in the food. If it states beef it should be nothing but that plain beef.

And for the veggie folks out there its the same. If you eat a prepaired food with potatoes and carrots you want exactly that. Should you find out its actuallysomething different you'd be upset as well.

I think the discussion what to eat with social differences is a complete different topic

[Belial]

Thats a lot of old horses being slaughtered for frozen meals is it not?

I have.

Attached Files

•  horse.jpg   80.86K   0 downloads

[freetoroam]

Soccergirl13, on 16 February 2013 - 10:56 PM, said:

I dont think the dillema is what we are eating. To each there own, if you like horse or just vegetables go ahead.
The real issue here is that people ate something that was not declared on the package. Doesnt matter if its horse,fish or rabbit in the food. If it states beef it should be nothing but that plain beef.

And for the veggie folks out there its the same. If you eat a prepaired food with potatoes and carrots you want exactly that. Should you find out its actuallysomething different you'd be upset as well.

I think the discussion what to eat with social differences is a complete different topic

Absolutely. with out sounding rude, this was covered earlier. But, yes if the packet says beef, we expect beef.

[Frank Merton]

I live in a country where the dominant religion tries to instill vegetarianism and where almost no one is a vegetarian.  We get by without thinking about it much.  If you go into a restaurant and tell them you are a vegetarian, they smile happily and have a menu for you, but no one asks.  They will just as happily serve you the little doggie you brought with you if you should ask them to do that.

A few of us, such as myself, think about ethics and base our ethics on the Buddhist principle of compassion for all sentient beings (that "sentient" part allows eating veggies and maybe even spraying the crop for insects).  My view is that compassion doesn't mean you can't eat them; they don't suffer when you cook and salt and pepper them and so on.  Let the animal have the karmic merit it gets from being something for you to eat.

In the meantime, do whatever you can to be sure the animals are treated humanely.  Domestic animals generally have it much better than their wild counterparts anyway.

[freetoroam]

Frank Merton, on 17 February 2013 - 04:31 PM, said:

I live in a country where the dominant religion tries to instill vegetarianism and where almost no one is a vegetarian.  We get by without thinking about it much.  If you go into a restaurant and tell them you are a vegetarian, they smile happily and have a menu for you, but no one asks.  They will just as happily serve you the little doggie you brought with you if you should ask them to do that.

A few of us, such as myself, think about ethics and base our ethics on the Buddhist principle of compassion for all sentient beings (that "sentient" part allows eating veggies and maybe even spraying the crop for insects).  My view is that compassion doesn't mean you can't eat them; they don't suffer when you cook and salt and pepper them and so on.  Let the animal have the karmic merit it gets from being something for you to eat.

In the meantime, do whatever you can to be sure the animals are treated humanely.  Domestic animals generally have it much better than their wild counterparts anyway.

Read an urban myth once about a couple going into a restaurant with their dog, he was out the back playing...but somehow ended up on their plate! urban myths are cruel sometimes!

My dog lives the life of Riley. 90% of boaters here have a dog, all are loved and well taken care off and over time all the dogs have got to know each other without growling...except when one wants to go round the back and the other is not in the mood.

[G Donnelly]

What about this for some blue sky thinking?
Why don't we make use of this horsemeat in dog food?
But not from living,breathing horses but euthanised ones from a race meeting.
There should be more than enough prime cuts of horsemeat from relatively young horses.
Well what's the point processing all the meat in the abattoir otherwise.
However this reality won't be possible....

I would have got away with it if it wasn't for those pesky pills.
Though my sis prefers a raw meat diet for Ty and Kayla with a few veggies thrown in.
Overall I think it's a wasted opportunity with mankinds continuing reliance on drugs.
There are other alternatives you know.
Take a gander in your local Holland and Barrett.

Edited by Medium Brown, 18 February 2013 - 09:39 AM.

[freetoroam]

Medium Brown, on 18 February 2013 - 09:37 AM, said:

What about this for some blue sky thinking?
Why don't we make use of this horsemeat in dog food?
But not from living,breathing horses but euthanised ones from a race meeting.
There should be more than enough prime cuts of horsemeat from relatively young horses.
Well what's the point processing all the meat in the abattoir otherwise.
However this reality won't be possible....

I would have got away with it if it wasn't for those pesky pills.
Though my sis prefers a raw meat diet for Ty and Kayla with a few veggies thrown in.
Overall I think it's a wasted opportunity with mankinds continuing reliance on drugs.
There are other alternatives you know.
Take a gander in your local Holland and Barrett.

There is a thread about what the pharmaceutical and some illegal drugs which have been thrown into the river, having an effect on the fish. Can you imagine what effect horse meat which contain drugs would have on dogs, especially the staffies, they do not need any extra help.

[TheSpoonyOne]

redhen, on 14 February 2013 - 05:17 PM, said:

So the criteria in deciding whether to kill and eat some particular animal is whether you can ride or befriend it? Have I got that right?

No you haven't got that right, in fact you've completely seemed to fail at grasping anything I said, I can't help you with that unfortunately.