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Look Mama, no diamond saw

ancient workmethods

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#661    Oniomancer

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Posted 01 July 2012 - 04:07 PM

View Postquestionmark, on 01 July 2012 - 08:27 AM, said:

The "hardness" argument surely does not hols water because as everybody who has ever used a diamond saw knows that the saw wears down too, maybe much slower than the sandstone it cuts but sooner or later the diamonds will be used up.

Another good example is this diamond cutting machine:

Posted Image
Notice that the disk is made out of steel? According to the "copper can't cut .... (fill in as needed)" advocates that should not work either.... well ask the guys in the diamond district in Antwerp if it does not.

I'll do you one better QM:



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#662    questionmark

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Posted 01 July 2012 - 04:12 PM

View PostOniomancer, on 01 July 2012 - 04:07 PM, said:

I'll do you one better QM:



Now we will hear that they use a motor!

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#663    Swede

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Posted 02 July 2012 - 12:00 AM

View Postjules99, on 01 July 2012 - 11:16 AM, said:

Regardless. the  grooves left in the finished work discount abrasives in favour of a single cutting point. I cant see how any logic can point to abrasives when grooves are left...lets get this straight...abrasives smoooooth,,,while a cutting tool will leave single lines or spiral grooves as evidence.....Its already been established that Egyptian sand does NOT leave the marks found in turnings or drill cores, so an alternate explanation is required..I cant see why you are pursuing this argument.

Edited to remove picture...

Jules - As has been presented on these pages, the experimental research of Dennis Stock has demonstrated that the utilization of quartz-grade silicates (sand) can be well supported in regards to lithic materials in the lower ranges of Mohs' hardness (i.e., limestone, etc.).

You are potentially correct in regards to the application of this same technique as it relates to harder materials such as granite (certain sarcophagi, etc.). However, the nature of the abrasives themselves may be a factor.

You may find the following experimental research by Younger/Gorelick and Gwinnett to be of interest.

http://www.penn.muse...-4/Creating.pdf

http://penn.museum/d...-3/Gwinnett.pdf

http://www.penn.muse.../The Origin.pdf

Aspects to keep in mind;

1) The production of royal sarcophagi, etc. would fall into a somewhat different economic realm than more "common" goods.

2) Given this factor, it may be speculated that the materials procured for operations for which the basic technology was well established may have been more cost/labor intensive.

3) There are documented sources/early utilization of emery in the Aegean Sea, particularly the island of Naxos.

4) There are comparatively early references (Herodotus, yes, questionable) to the importation of "sand". Given the abundance of local quartz sands, this could imply the importation of higher grade materials. This would not necessarily be inconsistent with the trade networks/economic exchange of the culture/period in question.

.


#664    lilthor

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Posted 02 July 2012 - 08:10 PM

View PostSwede, on 02 July 2012 - 12:00 AM, said:

Jules - As has been presented on these pages, the experimental research of Dennis Stock has demonstrated that the utilization of quartz-grade silicates (sand) can be well supported in regards to lithic materials in the lower ranges of Mohs' hardness (i.e., limestone, etc.).

You are potentially correct in regards to the application of this same technique as it relates to harder materials such as granite (certain sarcophagi, etc.). However, the nature of the abrasives themselves may be a factor.


To paraphrase, then, Swede's response to Jules' remark about the tool marks on the granite drill cores:

YES, it does appear that single-point, or fixed-tooth tube-drills were used to create those cores which exhibit helical striations.

YES, any notion that those cores were created using loose abrasives is irrational and wholly unsupported by the physical evidence.

NO, we do not know how these types of fixed-tooth tube-drills were fixtured, guided, or powered.  We only know that they were fixtured, guided, and powered.

Phew!  Had to read between the lines, but it does make sense...

Edited by lilthor, 02 July 2012 - 08:10 PM.


#665    jules99

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Posted 02 July 2012 - 10:53 PM

View PostOniomancer, on 01 July 2012 - 04:07 PM, said:

I'll do you one better QM:
Thanks; that really was a pleasure to watch an artist at work, gawd that must cost  $$$...
However I will raise your exquisitely hand cut crystal vase with The Barberini Vase c 20 bc. This vase is still largely assumed to be a hand cut cameo vase and has been thought of as such for 100s of years supposedly created by methods similar to those shown in your clip;
However; does this fit the evidence? Does this match up with the available quartz sand abrasives of the day?
I did read a convincing article that the cameos were actually cast in place with no grinding performed at all;

http://www.rosemarie...html#Werkspuren

My point is that we have to examine the evidence and if the  methodologies we propose that the ancients used dont fit then we have to look for alternatives.


#666    questionmark

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Posted 03 July 2012 - 07:58 AM

View Postjules99, on 02 July 2012 - 10:53 PM, said:

Thanks; that really was a pleasure to watch an artist at work, gawd that must cost  $$$...
However I will raise your exquisitely hand cut crystal vase with The Barberini Vase c 20 bc. This vase is still largely assumed to be a hand cut cameo vase and has been thought of as such for 100s of years supposedly created by methods similar to those shown in your clip;
However; does this fit the evidence? Does this match up with the available quartz sand abrasives of the day?
I did read a convincing article that the cameos were actually cast in place with no grinding performed at all;

http://www.rosemarie...html#Werkspuren

My point is that we have to examine the evidence and if the  methodologies we propose that the ancients used dont fit then we have to look for alternatives.

The Egyptian dessert sand consists mostly of quartz.

And yes, we have to examine the evidence, like bore cores, like found tools like possible low tech methods. The point being that they all get ignored in favor of some "supertechnology" some magic yaddah or some aliens.

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#667    lilthor

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Posted 03 July 2012 - 05:09 PM

View Postquestionmark, on 03 July 2012 - 07:58 AM, said:

The point being that they all get ignored in favor of some "supertechnology" some magic yaddah or some aliens.
No, there is a definite middle ground.  These things likely could have been accomplished using the materials at hand, although the methods are yet to be defined.

View Postquestionmark, on 03 July 2012 - 07:58 AM, said:

The Egyptian dessert sand consists mostly of quartz.

This is certainly news to me.

Yuck.  I will scratch Egyptian Cuisine from my bucket list.


#668    Swede

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Posted 04 July 2012 - 09:27 PM

View Postlilthor, on 02 July 2012 - 08:10 PM, said:

To paraphrase, then, Swede's response to Jules' remark about the tool marks on the granite drill cores:

YES, it does appear that single-point, or fixed-tooth tube-drills were used to create those cores which exhibit helical striations.

YES, any notion that those cores were created using loose abrasives is irrational and wholly unsupported by the physical evidence.

NO, we do not know how these types of fixed-tooth tube-drills were fixtured, guided, or powered.  We only know that they were fixtured, guided, and powered.

Phew!  Had to read between the lines, but it does make sense...


YES, it does appear that single-point, or fixed-tooth tube-drills were used to create those cores which exhibit helical striations.

None of the provided research refers to “fixed-tooth tube drills”. In regards to this aspect, Younger states the following:

To drill stones harder than copper or bronze drills, corundum or emery from Naxos was used as an abrasive along with the drills; this material was famous in antiquity… (Younger 1981:32)

Gwinnett and Gorelick observed the following:

None of the abrasives could drill hematite when used dry. Sand or crushed quartz did penetrate the rock, but did not produce the characteristic pattern of concentric lines on the side walls, regardless of the lubricant used (Fig. 15a). With emery and a lubricant, however, such lines were produced (Fig. 15b).

Gwinnett and Gorelick, Expedition 29/3:22

By ca. 2000 B.C., copper (and not bronze) drills were being used with abrasives, at least for hard stones such as hematite.

Gwinnett and Gorelick, Expedition 29/3:22

You may also wish to review Gorelick and Gwinnett 1981:25, where they reference not only the utilization of abrasives, but the centering aspects of bow drills.

YES, any notion that those cores were created using loose abrasives is irrational and wholly unsupported by the physical evidence.

This statement would not appear to be supported by the references provided.

NO, we do not know how these types of fixed-tooth tube-drills were fixtured, guided, or powered.  We only know that they were fixtured, guided, and powered.

See section one above and related observations in regards fixtures, centering, and RPM potential. As previously noted, there is no mention of “fixed-tooth tube-drills” in the references provided. However, these references to illustrate a number of hand-powered drilling/boring/turning apparatuses. See;

Younger 1981:32(2)
Gwinnett and Gorelick,  Expedition 29/3 p.16
Gorelick and Gwinnett 1981:pp. 24, 28

It should be noted the qualified researchers do not generally take kindly to the misrepresentation of their research.

.


#669    Abramelin

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Posted 05 July 2012 - 12:42 AM

I think I am not alone in this: we ALL would love to see a demonstration on video of  ancient technology being used to create what we are discussing here.

Wally Wallington did, and what he showed us - single-handed - was not peanuts. But he showed us anyway.

No, I do NOT believe ancient civilizations got help from 'aliens'.

No, I do NOT believe ancient civilizations used some sort of super-advanced technology.


No, I do NOT believe 'Atlantians' did it all.


#670    Banksy Boy

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Posted 05 July 2012 - 09:42 PM

Your having a laugh aren't you :lol:. They can all babble on for hours and hours telling us how everything was done, yet not one of them has the balls to prove their point.

Awaits another 45 pages of waffle from those that talk a good job rather than actually doing one and proving their point. :sleepy:


#671    jules99

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Posted 05 July 2012 - 11:35 PM

View PostBanksy Boy, on 05 July 2012 - 09:42 PM, said:

Your having a laugh aren't you :lol:. They can all babble on for hours and hours telling us how everything was done, yet not one of them has the balls to prove their point.

Awaits another 45 pages of waffle from those that talk a good job rather than actually doing one and proving their point. :sleepy:
No; I think youre incorrect here, for example;


"In 1999, D.A. Stocks tested the efficacy of copper saws and drills on the granite in the Aswan quarries 500 miles up the Nile. The copper saw in his test was 1.8 meters long, 15 centimeters in depth, and 6 millimeters thick. Stocks experimented with both wet and dry sand and smooth and notched saws. In one test, workmen cut a slot 3 centimeters deep and 95 centimeters long in14 hours. It was slow work, but the ancient Egyptians had plenty of time and manpower. In the same experiment, the copper saw blade was ground down 7.5 millimeters. Overall, dry sand with a smooth blade worked best.
Similar tests with a tubular copper drill were also successful. "

They did it...they actually did it and proved the technique possible.
Whether thats HOW the ancients actually did it or not though is another thing  :)  


#672    Oniomancer

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Posted 07 October 2012 - 06:00 PM

Going to go ahead and add this link here too for general reference

On The Working Of Greenstone , from page 497.

http://rsnz.natlib.g..._00_003950.html

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#673    Abramelin

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Posted 07 October 2012 - 07:47 PM

View Postjules99, on 05 July 2012 - 11:35 PM, said:

No; I think youre incorrect here, for example;


"In 1999, D.A. Stocks tested the efficacy of copper saws and drills on the granite in the Aswan quarries 500 miles up the Nile. The copper saw in his test was 1.8 meters long, 15 centimeters in depth, and 6 millimeters thick. Stocks experimented with both wet and dry sand and smooth and notched saws. In one test, workmen cut a slot 3 centimeters deep and 95 centimeters long in14 hours. It was slow work, but the ancient Egyptians had plenty of time and manpower. In the same experiment, the copper saw blade was ground down 7.5 millimeters. Overall, dry sand with a smooth blade worked best.
Similar tests with a tubular copper drill were also successful. "

They did it...they actually did it and proved the technique possible.
Whether thats HOW the ancients actually did it or not though is another thing  :)  

Source: http://www.science-f...37/sf137p01.htm

You have a video?


#674    lilthor

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Posted 07 October 2012 - 08:10 PM

View Postjules99, on 05 July 2012 - 11:35 PM, said:

In one test, workmen cut a slot 3 centimeters deep and 95 centimeters long in14 hours. It was slow work, but the ancient Egyptians had plenty of time and manpower. In the same experiment, the copper saw blade was ground down 7.5 millimeters.

So, their tools degraded at more than twice the rate of work progress?

As a feasible method for cutting many thousands of huge stone blocks, color me sceptical.  In fact, there's no way.


#675    Banksy Boy

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Posted 07 October 2012 - 08:51 PM

View PostAbramelin, on 07 October 2012 - 07:47 PM, said:

Source: http://www.science-f...37/sf137p01.htm

You have a video?

Here's the test I believe is being referred to also note Roger Hopkins' comments in each section, it's in the wet sands sawing section. There is a video somewhere will put it up if and when I find it.

http://www.pbs.org/w...sk/cutting.html

Edited by Banksy Boy, 07 October 2012 - 08:58 PM.





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