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Gun Laws Vs. Homicides By State

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#91    Yamato

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Posted 01 January 2013 - 09:07 AM

View Postquestionmark, on 31 December 2012 - 10:39 PM, said:

Twist a lot?

But I am not surprised.

And here you have the data on background checks performed by state, as I said Alaska has less handguns:

Posted Image

In fact, in California ten times as many handguns were purchased than in Alaska.
California has almost 50 times the number of people.   Since Alaska's handgun density is almost 5 times that of California's, it appears to me that handguns aren't the problem.

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#92    Yamato

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Posted 01 January 2013 - 09:28 AM

View PostDieChecker, on 01 January 2013 - 03:58 AM, said:

In my eyes, yes, the difference would be the training. The Constitution provides for people who are trained to bear arms. Even if that is a 2 week course for everyone. I'd like people who are gun owners to be responsible, and to do that they have to be trained in laws and usage.
What are you trying to fix?   Accidents?   It's the wake of Sandy Hook that we have so much noisy disapproval about guns in this country.   How is mandatory training of gun owners about laws and usage going to prevent Columbine?   It's also ironic for the government to force train our gun owners under the auspices of the 2nd Amendment which is the right to bear arms against the government if necessary.    Training and these sensational cases don't seem to be correlated.   Some of the most sensational gun homicides were from the hands of trained shooters.

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#93    questionmark

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Posted 01 January 2013 - 11:19 AM

View PostDieChecker, on 01 January 2013 - 04:00 AM, said:

The number for Kentucky caught my eye.

Just curious if there is any data on if there are more deaths by firearms in Kentucky also?

Kentucky rates somewhere in the middle field, according to Statemaster they are # 17 in the ranking with 13.1 per 100,000.

The amount of guns have little statistical correlation with murders or even crimes. The amount of accidental discharges, deaths and injuries, do. For more detail there is a 7 year old study by the FICAP

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#94    DieChecker

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Posted 01 January 2013 - 07:24 PM

View PostYamato, on 01 January 2013 - 09:28 AM, said:

What are you trying to fix?   Accidents?   It's the wake of Sandy Hook that we have so much noisy disapproval about guns in this country.   How is mandatory training of gun owners about laws and usage going to prevent Columbine?   It's also ironic for the government to force train our gun owners under the auspices of the 2nd Amendment which is the right to bear arms against the government if necessary. Training and these sensational cases don't seem to be correlated.   Some of the most sensational gun homicides were from the hands of trained shooters.
I'm not trying to fix anything. I am just saying that if everyone was trained and armed, that would be the equivalent to Switzerland. WHICH IS WHAT I RESPONDED TO!! You should go over the content and context of a post before going off at the... keyboard.

I did not anywhere say I wanted mandated classes or whatever the F-bomb you're going on about... I was responding to the difference between the US and Switzerland and how if we were to have a Swiss like system here. it would require trained individuals.

Here at Intel we make processors on 12 inch wafers. And, the individual processors on the wafers are called die. And, I am employed to check these die. That is why I am the DieChecker.

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#95    AsteroidX

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Posted 01 January 2013 - 07:37 PM

I dont even understand what this topic is suppose to represent. Its a number sheet. Thats all. As if I cared.


#96    ninjadude

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Posted 01 January 2013 - 08:56 PM

View PostYamato, on 31 December 2012 - 11:35 PM, said:

Who said anything about government? Where do you think gun control comes from?   Do you even know what you're asking for? Again, who determines what "even marginally unhinged" means?   You?  Government?   WHO???

When the government proves itself the least bit capable of treating mental illness with parity to physical illness your argument will just begin to make some sense.   When the government proves itself the least bit responsible for the use of its own guns, your bottomless vessel of trust will just begin to be deserved.

sigh. Again "who said anything about government treatment? One aspect of gun control would be all purchasers checked against a no-guns list - maintained by government but reported by health professionals."

YOU said government treatment. And did it again above in your second paragraph. I explained WHO - health professionals. Did you actually read it before you fired off a response or are you just trolling?

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#97    AsteroidX

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Posted 01 January 2013 - 09:03 PM

Quote

sigh. Again "who said anything about government treatment? One aspect of gun control would be all purchasers checked against a no-guns list - maintained by government but reported by health professionals."

YOU said government treatment. And did it again above in your second paragraph. I explained WHO - health professionals. Did you actually read it before you fired off a response or are you just trolling?


None of this will change the gun deaths in this country as long as the police are carrying military grade weaponry and using military style tactics.


#98    ninjadude

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Posted 01 January 2013 - 09:04 PM

View PostDieChecker, on 01 January 2013 - 03:54 AM, said:

You mean like Afghanistan where the Insurgents have been going for over a decade and all they got is small arms and home made explosives? Against the US Military... spending a half trillion over that timespan.

pssh. That's no longer a war. It's "going on" because republicans like spending money on defense. It has nothing to do with "going". The US military is just camped out. The "insurgents" have no chance of any political power unless we leave. Which proves my point.

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#99    Yamato

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Posted 01 January 2013 - 10:25 PM

View Postninjadude, on 01 January 2013 - 08:56 PM, said:

sigh. Again "who said anything about government treatment? One aspect of gun control would be all purchasers checked against a no-guns list - maintained by government but reported by health professionals."

YOU said government treatment. And did it again above in your second paragraph. I explained WHO - health professionals. Did you actually read it before you fired off a response or are you just trolling?
Who keeps the list?  Who enforces the list?   You can't have your idea without government treatment.   What you're suggesting is that government get involved in our health care records and our doctors....there are privacy laws in this country did you even know that?   If government wants to snoop through your medical records it better have probable cause, it better have a legal grounds to search, it better know what it's looking for, and it better get a search warrant.   Read the 4th Amendment already.   Now you're killing the 4th just to kill the 2nd.  Do you liberal democrats have no end to your liberty killing ways?

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#100    Yamato

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Posted 01 January 2013 - 10:51 PM

View PostDieChecker, on 01 January 2013 - 07:24 PM, said:

I'm not trying to fix anything. I am just saying that if everyone was trained and armed, that would be the equivalent to Switzerland. WHICH IS WHAT I RESPONDED TO!! You should go over the content and context of a post before going off at the... keyboard.

I did not anywhere say I wanted mandated classes or whatever the F-bomb you're going on about... I was responding to the difference between the US and Switzerland and how if we were to have a Swiss like system here. it would require trained individuals.
I'm going on about the subject of this thread.   The reason I brought up Switzerland before you replied was to compare gun crime which is what we're discussing here.   "Being more like Switzerland", yet not having any impact on gun crimes, is irrelevant to the purpose of this discussion.    So you think that having millions of full-auto assault rifles in the US is a good idea provided that they're forced to do so by government provided they're also trained by the government.    That's fine but I hardly see why that makes a difference in what the F-bomb we're talking about here.

"Peace cannot be achieved by force, only by understanding."  ~ Albert Einstein

"To deny people their human rights is to challenge their very humanity.   To impose on them a wretched life of hunger and deprivation is to dehumanize them." ~ Nelson Mandela

#101    DieChecker

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Posted 02 January 2013 - 12:12 AM

View PostYamato, on 01 January 2013 - 10:51 PM, said:

I'm going on about the subject of this thread.   The reason I brought up Switzerland before you replied was to compare gun crime which is what we're discussing here.   "Being more like Switzerland", yet not having any impact on gun crimes, is irrelevant to the purpose of this discussion. So you think that having millions of full-auto assault rifles in the US is a good idea provided that they're forced to do so by government provided they're also trained by the government. That's fine but I hardly see why that makes a difference in what the F-bomb we're talking about here.

So do you think that the military training that the Swiss get has Nothing to do with the crime rate? Does knowledge that lots of people with weapons, who are trained, not lead to the deduction that crimes against homeowners is more dangerous? In that I would agree. However, that people in Switzerland have assault rifles is publically known, so criminals know that those guns are there. Whereas in the US, the criminals have to guess who has guns and who does not. Even if everyone had a gun, the criminals could easily guess who would still be untrained or more of a victim. If 75% of the population is untrained, then they are basically still victims, unless they know how to use/load/clear/safe/aim/fire their weapon.

The thing about the government prescribing training is that if the government Gives You an assault rifle to hold and use in their behalf. Then they should have the right to tell you the limitations on how you can use it. If you don't want the government rifle, then you don't require the training.

Edited by DieChecker, 02 January 2013 - 12:14 AM.

Here at Intel we make processors on 12 inch wafers. And, the individual processors on the wafers are called die. And, I am employed to check these die. That is why I am the DieChecker.

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#102    Yamato

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Posted 02 January 2013 - 04:27 AM

View PostDieChecker, on 02 January 2013 - 12:12 AM, said:

So do you think that the military training that the Swiss get has Nothing to do with the crime rate? Does knowledge that lots of people with weapons, who are trained, not lead to the deduction that crimes against homeowners is more dangerous? In that I would agree. However, that people in Switzerland have assault rifles is publically known, so criminals know that those guns are there. Whereas in the US, the criminals have to guess who has guns and who does not. Even if everyone had a gun, the criminals could easily guess who would still be untrained or more of a victim. If 75% of the population is untrained, then they are basically still victims, unless they know how to use/load/clear/safe/aim/fire their weapon.

The thing about the government prescribing training is that if the government Gives You an assault rifle to hold and use in their behalf. Then they should have the right to tell you the limitations on how you can use it. If you don't want the government rifle, then you don't require the training.
I think your idea is thoughtful and decent, mostly towards the prevention of gun accidents and that could save lives, but I won't support federal designs on your idea.  If certain communities, counties, cities, or states want to add such a regulation to handgun ownership you won't hear any protests from me about it.

To decrease homicides and violent gun crime?   No I don't see any correlation.  Did the Fort Hood shooter save lives because he knew how to shoot before he started blasting people?   Are our soldiers and veterans somehow inoculated from the kinds of mental illness relevant to the Sandy Hook tragedy?   I think that there are some very bad people out there who also know how to shoot.  

Extra training on usage would be an effective solution if the problem was accidents....errant bullets hitting people because the gun owners didn't know how to shoot straight.   Or going off in their holster because they didn't know how to safely handle their firearm, and etc.

A little bit of training on gun safety and gun responsibilities and expectations would be a good idea as it might lower the number of gun deaths, but that is shaky ground asking for govt to put even controls on our gun ownership rights.  This issue is obviously political dynamite in light of the 2nd Amendment, and probably a good roll in the hay for message board rabble rousers.  

Small, local government that's closer to the people and thus more liable to the people is what I believe we should lean towards on every issue.  It's insane to me how people run to Washington DC first for seemingly every problem they have.

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#103    ninjadude

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Posted 03 January 2013 - 12:40 AM

View PostYamato, on 01 January 2013 - 10:25 PM, said:

Who keeps the list?  Who enforces the list?   You can't have your idea without government treatment.   What you're suggesting is that government get involved in our health care records and our doctors....there are privacy laws in this country did you even know that?

Not as much as you might think. Plus they are the shizzle to get enforced. And there are already similar laws on the books. Mandatory reporting of suspected child abuse. One so suspected has pretty much lost any privacy to the government.

"Whatever you can do or dream you can, begin it. Boldness has genius, power and magic in it. Begin it now!""
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#104    DieChecker

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Posted 03 January 2013 - 12:58 AM

I know that when I was in the Army that there were some (Not many really, but some) soldiers who had to requalify with their M16 over and over again, because they could not hit the 50 meter target consistantly. What helped them was repeated training. I believe that training would be the difference between a homeowner being able to defend himself and.... shooting himself trying to get the gun off Safe.

Here at Intel we make processors on 12 inch wafers. And, the individual processors on the wafers are called die. And, I am employed to check these die. That is why I am the DieChecker.

At times one remains faithful to a cause only because its opponents do not cease to be insipid. - Friedrich Nietzsche

Qualifications? This is cryptozoology, dammit! All that is required is the spirit of adventure. - Night Walker

#105    Yamato

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Posted 03 January 2013 - 02:17 AM

View Postninjadude, on 03 January 2013 - 12:40 AM, said:

Not as much as you might think. Plus they are the shizzle to get enforced. And there are already similar laws on the books. Mandatory reporting of suspected child abuse. One so suspected has pretty much lost any privacy to the government.
Once you open the next can of privacy destruction you'll never be able to close it again.  And that's some of the reason why expecting government to solve all our problems is so hazardous.  Government doesn't know how to stop handling something once it starts.  And here you are nonchalantly informing me that privacy doesn't exist.  So carefree, so blind in trust.

View PostDieChecker, on 03 January 2013 - 12:58 AM, said:

I know that when I was in the Army that there were some (Not many really, but some) soldiers who had to requalify with their M16 over and over again, because they could not hit the 50 meter target consistantly. What helped them was repeated training. I believe that training would be the difference between a homeowner being able to defend himself and.... shooting himself trying to get the gun off Safe.
And when shooting ourselves trying to get our guns off safe becomes the problem, that idea would solve it.

"Peace cannot be achieved by force, only by understanding."  ~ Albert Einstein

"To deny people their human rights is to challenge their very humanity.   To impose on them a wretched life of hunger and deprivation is to dehumanize them." ~ Nelson Mandela





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