11638 replies to this topic

[Knul]

Abramelin, on 03 January 2012 - 05:06 PM, said:

I was searching for yet another folk almanac ("Volksalmanak") for some explanation about the 2194 BC date.

Again I didn't find it (it's getting kind of frustrating that no one thought it a good thing to write down how they came to that date in their almanacs), but found this instead:

Vaderlandsche Letteroefeningen
Jaargang 1840

Het zevengestarnte, een van de heerlijkste
des zuidelijken hemels, stelde bij de Oosterlingen NOACH's arke voor.

http://www.dbnl.org/...03184001_01.pdf

Translation:
The Pleiades, one of the loveliest (constellations) of the southern skies, stood for Noah's Ark among the easterners.

OK, and from then on:

The Babylonian star catalogues name them MUL.MUL or "star of stars", and they head the list of stars along the ecliptic, reflecting the fact that they were close to the point of vernal equinox around the 23rd century BC. The earliest known depiction of the Pleiades is likely a bronze age artifact known as the Nebra sky disk, dated to approximately 1600 BC.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pleiades


The precise dating of the Nebra skydisk depended upon the dating of a number of Bronze Age weapons, which were offered for sale with the disk and said to be from the same site. These axes and swords can be typologically dated to the mid 2nd millennium BC (Unetice culture). Radiocarbon dating of a birchbark particle found on one of the swords to between 1600 and 1560 BC confirmed this estimate. This corresponds to the date of burial, at which time the disk had likely been in existence for several generations.

http://en.wikipedia..../Nebra_sky_disk

This Nebra skydisk is an interesting artefact and of a nice age...


From:
THE BIBLE AND THE PLEIADES
Gerardus D. Bouw, Ph.D.
http://www.geocentri...ns/pleiades.pdf

From time immemorial the Hebrews and the Christian Church
have linked the constellations to the truths of scriptures. The
Hebrews, for example, maintain that the constellation of Orion the
hunter, which they call Kesil, (meaning fool), was usurped by Nimrod
(Gen. 10:8-9) to immortalize himself in the sky. Indeed, most of the
pagan accounts of the Pleiades even have Biblical overtones. Thus
many ancients associate Taurus, the constellation in which the
Pleiades is found, with the flood of Noah, and they associate the
Pleiades with the ark. Related to that, some regard the Pleiades as
doves. Of course, we know Noah sent a single dove from the ark
(Gen. 8:8), not seven, but the connection is there nevertheless.

==

(..) day, and the Pleiades with the rain or start of the
rainy season, a theme associated with them around the world.

==

We find that tales of a missing Pleiad are world-wide.

==

The pervasiveness of the Pleiades as the spiritual center or seat of
the universe led Wright, in 1750, to propose that the Pleiades are at
the physical center of the universe. In 1846 this led to the suggestion
by Maedler that the whole universe revolved around Alcyone.


Here someone is quoting an interpretation by Velikovsky and I will try to find the original text interpreted by Velikovsky:

The Pleiades are called the Khima (or heap) in the Old Testament. Their connection to the story of Noah and the Biblical Great Flood first appears in the set of Jewish scriptures known as the Babylonian Talmud, or Tracta Berakhot. “When the Holy One decided to bring the Deluge on the Earth, He took two stars from Khima and (hurling them against the Earth) brought the Deluge on the Earth.”

http://consciousevol...leiades0211.htm

A site about Velikovsky (and the quote): http://www.varchive.org/itb/khima.htm

(Did Alewyn mention this in his book? I am not sure, and I can't find it in his book.)


More:

They shared the watery character always ascribed to the Hyades, as is shown in Statius' Pliadum nivosum sidus; and Valerius Flaccus distinctly used the word "Pliada" for the showers, as perhaps did Statius in his Pliada movere; while Josephus states, among his very few stellar allusions, that during the investment of Jerusalem by Antiochus Epiphanes, 170 B.C., the besieged suffered from want of water, but were finally relieved "by a large shower of rain which fell at the setting of the Pleiades." In the same way they are intimately connected with traditions of the Flood found among so many and widely separated nations, and especially in the Deluge-myth of Chaldaea.

http://www.constella...s/pleiades.html


=========

A nice read (well, for those who are called Puzzler and Abramelin, lol):

Mazzaroth; or The Constellations/
Frances Rolleston 1862

http://books.google...... noah&f=false


http://books.google....AAJ&redir_esc=y

.

For centuries one has calculated the creation of the earth and the big flood with help of the numbers of years e.g. duration of reigns given in the Bible. s. http://www.statenver...?q=jaar&x=0&y=0. The case of Methusalem shows, that those calculations could not be realistic.

[Abramelin]

Knul, on 03 January 2012 - 08:13 PM, said:

For centuries one has calculated the creation of the earth and the big flood with help of the numbers of years e.g. duration of reigns given in the Bible. s. http://www.statenver...?q=jaar&x=0&y=0. The case of Methusalem shows, that those calculations could not be realistic.

I know that the date of the Flood was always calculated using Biblical chronology, but wherever you look, that date is always somewhere around 2350 BC.

Only the Frisians said it was 2194 BC (well, not directly: their almanacs said 'the Flood happened so many years before the date of the almanac').

But how did they arrive at this date that is different from every other calculated date for the Flood?

That's the question, not whether it is realistic or not.

To make this quest more clear:

- Either this date of 2194 BC is based on some alternative chronology (and maybe based on astrological/astronomical calculations);

- Or that date is actually based on something that actually happened at that time, and then recorded.

.

Edited by Abramelin, 03 January 2012 - 09:27 PM.

[Van Gorp]

Otharus, on 03 January 2012 - 07:40 AM, said:

The PDF can be downloaded here:
http://books.google....epage&q&f=false

Two quick (OLB-related) finds from the intro:





Schrieck's etymology of "Atlantis" (achter-land = behind-land) is different of that of OLB.

I leave conclusions for later.

Excuse me if I'm not that fast with references/sources. Most effort goes to some experimental study ;-)
But I can try to do as you specialists (still amazed what amount of posts, depth and speed you deliver: most cost some time?).

In my opinion, "Aht" (as from "Aht-Lant-isch") by Schriecks work, does not exclude a meaning of Old(Out)-Land-isch (wheter he himself believed it or not) :-)
Aht Lant Isch: meaning the old land, but also "coming out from" the old land.

Pronounced "Aat" in Belgian dialect has 2 meanings:
Oud, old
Uit, van from

Meaning also "coming from, origine", ik kom "uit" een ... gezin
Example from Schriecks work, as for the word "Aht-Wacht-Dycken", meaning Atuatici and still present meaning of Uitwacht, Buitenpost: Watch Post.
Achter de Wacht Dijken (Be Awake op den Uitkijk!).  Een nachtwake houden -> we kijken naar achter (in de tijd).

Achter in the meaning Behind, is still meaningfull as "what lies behind us".

[Abramelin]

I can read Schrieck explained Atlantis by saying it came from "achter land", the land that lies behind.

It has nothing to do with "from" at all.

.

Edited by Abramelin, 04 January 2012 - 12:42 AM.

[Knul]

Abramelin, on 03 January 2012 - 09:06 PM, said:

I know that the date of the Flood was always calculated using Biblical chronology, but wherever you look, that date is always somewhere around 2350 BC.

Only the Frisians said it was 2194 BC (well, not directly: their almanacs said 'the Flood happened so many years before the date of the almanac').

But how did they arrive at this date that is different from every other calculated date for the Flood?

That's the question, not whether it is realistic or not.

To make this quest more clear:

- Either this date of 2194 BC is based on some alternative chronology (and maybe based on astrological/astronomical calculations);

- Or that date is actually based on something that actually happened at that time, and then recorded.

.

I told you, that the oldest Hinlepre Almanak calculated 2326 BC, which comes close to 2350 BC. The late Friesche Almanak has recalculated the years of the creation of the world and the big flood  based on the Statenvertaling.There is no connection with astronomy, disasters etc. s. http://www.statenver...=koeien&x=0&y=0Halbertsma published the Hinlepre Almanak in his Hulde to Gysbert Japicx, but choosed for the 'official' calculation as published in the Friesche Almanak in his time.

Edited by Knul, 04 January 2012 - 03:46 AM.

[Abramelin]

Knul, on 04 January 2012 - 03:31 AM, said:

I told you, that the oldest Hinlepre Almanak calculated 2326 BC, which comes close to 2350 BC. The late Friesche Almanak has recalculated the years of the creation of the world and the big flood  based on the Statenvertaling.There is no connection with astronomy, disasters etc. s. http://www.statenver...=koeien&x=0&y=0Halbertsma published the Hinlepre Almanak in his Hulde to Gysbert Japicx, but choosed for the 'official' calculation as published in the Friesche Almanak in his time.

You tell me how that later Frisian almanac came to the date of 2194 BC.

Even if it is based on an alternative Biblical chronology, I still want to see how they did it.

[The Puzzler]

How about this line up? A good one, 24th April 1600BC - that is, when the Sun is in Taurus, looking for what might indicate when Thera erupted, that disaster is is way under-rated imo, in relation to the whole Mediterranean people of the time - where did the Therans go? Who did they become? They obviously had alot going on with the pictures at Akrotiri showing apparent sailing relations with Africa or Egypt.



I started off thinking about the fall of the Age of Taurus and whether it could align with the fall of the Bull cult of Thera, co-inciding with a major cataclysm, when the earth shook, mountains violently erupted etc - who kept this story?

As late as 1600BC is mentioned for the end of the age of Taurus which co-incides with the date given for Thera, roughly. A known Bull cult that fell with the Age of the Bull/Taurus, in the Sun sign of the Bull as Aries the Ram takes over and comes to the fore. The taking of the Golden Fleece etc. If you look closely you can see the Ram's back leg has touched the Equinox indicating this is when his reign came in. Many planets are in Pisces, the water sign too.

I started off by checking out the Pleiades, which do indeed sit on the Vernal Equinox in the 23rd century BC - closest at around 2350-2200BC. There appears to be a Jupiter-Mercury conjunction at the time as well. I'll upload that one soon.

It's all astrological these myths, imo, all these movements and actions of Gods and stories, are all astrological stories. The OLB imo will be based on an astronomical event at that time, whether it was a comet, as Alewyn has summised, or a 'declination in the skies' of a planet at the Equinox or something else, it's all in the Heavens. Lyda, Finda, Frya, will all be stars or constellations and the creation story will be Zodiac/time based, the cataclysms would have occurred at some kind of astrological significance, ie; as the myth I gave told - the fall of Phaethon dried the Sahara Desert out as everything burned, this co-incides with the 4.2ky event, which is responsible for this, apparently.

I think the picture on the Nebra Disk should be found in the sky - that is, the Sun and Moon either side of Taurus, with the star cluster being the Pleiades, that disk is dated 1600BC, the same timeframe I found the Cybersky image in, the same time Thera may have erupted. That's how I found the line up, by looking for the Nebra Disk alignment. The above picture COULD be it - as the Moon is one side of the Pleiades and the Sun is the other.

Edited by The Puzzler, 04 January 2012 - 12:11 PM.

[The Puzzler]

Quote

The Babylonian star catalogues name them MUL.MUL or "star of stars", and they head the list of stars along the ecliptic, reflecting the fact that they were close to the point of vernal equinox around the 23rd century BC.

Here's the Pleiades one I said I'd upload. 2200BC places it right on top of the Equinox the closest - I've stayed with Sun in Taurus and notice the Jupiter Mercury conjunction right next to the Vernal Equinox point too.

[Knul]

Here you find info on Anno Mundi: http://en.wikipedia....wiki/Anno_Mundi

[Abramelin]

Knul, on 04 January 2012 - 12:12 PM, said:

Here you find info on Anno Mundi: http://en.wikipedia....wiki/Anno_Mundi

About the date of the Creation no one really agrees, but most agree on the time span between the creation and the flood: 1656 years.

Date of the flood

The Ussher chronology, a calculation of the dates of creation and other Biblical events published in 1650 by the Irish Archbishop James Ussher, places the Great Flood at 2348 BC. Using the Masoretic Text of the Bible shows the date to be 1656 years after creation.[43] Ussher calculated that the creation occurred in 4004 BC; using the King James Bible, this creation date gives the date of the Flood as 2348 BC. Although the Ussher chronology remains highly influential, other theologians have given different dates for the Creation; for example, Joseph Scaliger claimed it to have occurred in 3950 BC, while Petavius calculated the date as 3982 BC.[44][45]

http://en.wikipedia....te_of_the_flood

---

Biblical Chronology: Legend Or Science?
James Barr, FBA
Regius Professor of Hebrew,
University of Oxford
The Ethel M. Wood Lecture 1987
Delivered at the Senate House,
University of London on
4 March 1987

And so Josephus goes on to survey all
this in detail, how for example the flood began on the 27th day of the second month in the year
2262 after the birth of Adam. The detail of biblical chronology was a matter of normal
knowledge and conversation, and this continued so up to a few centuries ago.

One other note about Josephus: his time from creation to flood is on the high side at 2262 years,
for the Hebrew text as we now have it adds up to 1656 years for the same period. Josephus used
the Greek text (or conceivably, but less probably, a Hebrew text which in this respect
corresponded with the Greek), and we have already mentioned that the Greek text displayed a
higher set of figures.

(...)

Upon this foundation there followed the long chain of Christian chronologies and histories which
began with a chronology. Among the most important we may mention Eusebius, Isidore of
Seville, and Bede. Bede for example has all the dates worked out: the flood was in 1656 AM, the
exodus from Egypt in 2493, and Christ was born in 3952 from creation; from this point one could
continue into the Christian era and up to modern times.This sort of thing was standard. Indeed
one cannot say, in this respect, that Ussher in the seventeenth century showed much advance in
sophistication over Bede nine hundred years before him. Nevertheless the great age of biblical
chronology came in the sixteenth, seventeenth and eighteenth centuries. There are several reasons
for its culmination at this time. The first is the increasing precision of astronomical knowledge.
Ussher himself used this. Although he was hardly a scientist at all, properly speaking, in this
aspect of his work he was scientific. From his biblical figures he had determined that creation
took place in the year 4004 BC. But how did he know the month and the day? He was sure that it
was in the autumn, probably because the Jewish New Year falls at that time. He knew it was a
Sunday, for it was the first day of the week according to Genesis. He looked in the ‘astronomical
tables’ for the

autumnal equinox of the year 4004 BC, and the first Sunday after the equinox was 23rd October.
It was on that day that light was created, the first act of creation. All this was quite scientific. The tables used were almost certainly the Rudolfian tables of Kepler and Brahe, and Ussher’s use of
them was very accurate, within half a day.

http://www.asa3.org/...nology_barr.pdf

---

If most agree on those 1656 years between Creation and Flood we can start calculating:

2194 + 1656 = 3850 BC


Now read this:

(The next is not specifically about the flood, but anyway)

here's how i determined it: Scripture (such as the Epistle of Barnabas) teaches the 7,000 year allegory.  six days of work against satan, and then 1000 years of rest from satan.  this rest of 1000 years is known as the millennial kingdom, in which satan will be locked away as a means of rest from his influence.  the work against satan began seven years after creation, when the fall of Adam occurred.  Using the most reliable Scripture and manuscripts thereof to determine the year of creation, (Book of Jubilees and Samaritan Pentateuch extremely important in this dating) we come up with the year 3,857 BC as the year of creation.  seven years after that is 3,850, when they were expelled from the garden.  add 6,000 years to the year 3850 BC and you come up with 2,150 AD.

http://nazarenespace...-book-of-daniel
http://nazarenespace...source=activity


And:

Well, Bishop James Ussher is famously (although questionably) credited with calculating the time of creation as being 4004 B.C, circa 1650. This seems to be a very important part element of the modern day young earth creation chronology. However, its not the only date arrived from study of scripture- the Byzantines decided the date was 5508 B.C. in the year 680. A straight reading by the layman of the genealogy in Genesis also produces a date of about 3850 B.C. All can be argued to be correct I imagine, so which is right as they are all human interpretations of Genesis?

http://www.4forums.c...volution-3.html

.

Edited by Abramelin, 04 January 2012 - 03:57 PM.

[Abramelin]

If I read the quotes in my former post correctly, maybe some Frisian(s) calculated the date of Creation to be 3850 BC without bothering about whether the ages and intervals mentioned in the Bible should be interpreted literally or with a twist.

And that date is the one that ended up in several Frisian Alamancs, and thus the (Frisian) date for the Flood: 2194 BC.

[Abramelin]

The Puzzler, on 04 January 2012 - 12:10 PM, said:

Here's the Pleiades one I said I'd upload. 2200BC places it right on top of the Equinox the closest - I've stayed with Sun in Taurus and notice the Jupiter Mercury conjunction right next to the Vernal Equinox point too.

Can you manage to squeeze the Pleiades into that chart?

+++

EDIT:

Sorry, I see them now.



.

Edited by Abramelin, 04 January 2012 - 05:07 PM.

[Abramelin]

Abramelin, on 04 January 2012 - 05:01 PM, said:

If I read the quotes in my former post correctly, maybe some Frisian(s) calculated the date of Creation to be 3850 BC without bothering about whether the ages and intervals mentioned in the Bible should be interpreted literally or with a twist.

And that date is the one that ended up in several Frisian Alamancs, and thus the (Frisian) date for the Flood: 2194 BC.

Humanity has always looked to the skies for signs – astronomers in particular. Comets have always been considered harbingers of doom, and none has a longer, more distinguished history than Halley's Comet. Noah's Flood in 2349 B.C. and the destruction of Sodom and Gomorrah in 1900 B.C. are among the countless cataclysms heralded by Halley's Comet through the ages. By 1910 A.D., when it was still fresh in the minds of many elders that the 1835 visit of the comet had coincided with the burning to the ground of half of New York City, the stage was set.

http://cobras.hubpag...he-Kali-Age-etc

You read 2349 BC, but most people came to a date of 2345 BC (try Google and see for yourself).

The avarage period of revolution of Halley's comet (calculated by Halley and proven to be correct): 75.5 years.

2345- 75.5 - 75.5 = 2194 BC.

If you stick to 2349 BC: 2349- 151= 2198 BC.

So the straight forward calculation of the date of Creation results in : 3850 BC
Then, again according to Biblical chronology you get 3850-1656= 2194 BC for the Flood.

And could this be a date for the return of Halley's Comet? Yes.

Could someone in the 19th century have read about Noah's Flood? Yes.
Could someone in the 19th century have read about what people believed in Halley's Comet would cause (impact, tilt of earth's axis, floods, earthquakes, erupting volcanoes, and so on)? Yes.

Would they write about Halley's Comet in the OLB? Very probably not for it would be too obvious where they got their inspiration from. By the time the OLB was published, Halley's Comet was already 'notorious'.

.

Edited by Abramelin, 04 January 2012 - 06:32 PM.

[cormac mac airt]

Abramelin, on 04 January 2012 - 06:21 PM, said:

Humanity has always looked to the skies for signs – astronomers in particular. Comets have always been considered harbingers of doom, and none has a longer, more distinguished history than Halley's Comet. Noah's Flood in 2349 B.C. and the destruction of Sodom and Gomorrah in 1900 B.C. are among the countless cataclysms heralded by Halley's Comet through the ages. By 1910 A.D., when it was still fresh in the minds of many elders that the 1835 visit of the comet had coincided with the burning to the ground of half of New York City, the stage was set.

http://cobras.hubpag...he-Kali-Age-etc

You read 2349 BC, but most people came to a date of 2345 BC (try Google and see for yourself).

The avarage period of revolution of Halley's comet (calculated by Halley and proven to be correct): 75.5 years.

2345- 75.5 - 75.5 = 2194 BC.

If you stick to 2349 BC: 2349- 151= 2198 BC.

So the straight forward calculation of the date of Creation results in : 3850 BC
Then, again according to Biblical chronology you get 3850-1656= 2194 BC for the Flood.
And could this be a date for the return of Halley's Comet? Yes.

Could someone in the 19th century have read about Noah's Flood? Yes.
Could someone in the 19th century have read about what people believed in Halley's Comet would cause (impact, tilt of earth's axis, floods, earthquakes, erupting volcanoes, and so on)? Yes.

.

It all depends on what one considers "Biblical Chronology". It's certainly NOT what the Hebrews/Jews believed as their own calendar which is still in use shows Creation as happening in 3760 BC, with the Great Flood (per the King James Version) happening 1656 years later, which is 2104 BC. At best, someone took one of several claimed dates and presented it as fact and many others have since bought it hook, line and sinker. Not the best way to validate a claim, by any means.  

cormac

[Abramelin]

cormac mac airt, on 04 January 2012 - 06:36 PM, said:

It all depends on what one considers "Biblical Chronology". It's certainly NOT what the Hebrews/Jews believed as their own calendar which is still in use shows Creation as happening in 3760 BC, with the Great Flood (per the King James Version) happening 1656 years later, which is 2104 BC. At best, someone took one of several claimed dates and presented it as fact and many others have since bought it hook, line and sinker. Not the best way to validate a claim, by any means.  

cormac

Well, that is what I suggested: someone (a Christian) picked the most accpted (avarage) date of the Flood: 2345 BC.
Then substracted two times the avarage period of revolution of Halley's Comet, and came to 2194 BC.

Then (or even before that) he checked if that date would be 1656 years after the 3850 BC date for the Creation (calculated straightforward), and voila, 2194 BC we have.

Then add a chart like Puzzler posted of the heavens during the Vernal Equinox around 21 September (end of the summer) 2914 BC (nicely close to the Pleiades) and we have a bingo, lol.

.

Edited by Abramelin, 04 January 2012 - 06:52 PM.