66 replies to this topic

[cormac mac airt]

Riaan, on 03 February 2013 - 08:17 PM, said:

Sorry - not properly explained. In the Bible Joseph was described as a man of exceptional beauty who was coveted by his master's wife. When Joseph rejected her advances, she accused him of attempted rape and he was imprisoned. The king, who was a tyrant, was called Scharabel in the text. No idea where the author of this text got the name from.

Would you care to cite that reference as it's not in Genesis Chapter 39, which is where the story is told. Also, what evidence do you have that Yuya was ever thrown in prison? As to the name Scharabel, it exists nowhere in the Bible so is rather meaningless.

cormac

[the L]

Based on archaeology we know nothing about Solomon.
But its interesting that Solomon could speak with animals,birds, he could control devil,he is prophet in Islam.
Thats why we have so many Suleiman rulers

[questionmark]

Riaan, on 03 February 2013 - 08:29 PM, said:

Yes, the Amarna letters. Rohl analysed the contents of these letters and observed that many of the events and locations described in the letters match those associated with Saul.

Where we have the Garden Eden and the rest... your problem is that nobody seems to agree with him.

[DieChecker]

Riaan, on 03 February 2013 - 07:14 PM, said:

There seems to be a misunderstanding here. It was the other way around. When Bathsheba was taken by David, she sent her infant children (two sisters) to Yuya (Joseph) in Egypt. Had they remained in Israel, David would have had them killed. These two girls grew up in Egypt and the most beautiful one of them, Nefertiti, was most likely betrothed to Amenhotep III, but in the end became Akhenaten's wife. The Israelites knew about this, specifically when she came from Egypt to see Solomon, her half-brother, and remembered her in oral tradition or scripture as "Sheba's queen". Josephus knew that she was in fact the queen of Egypt. Bathsheba, her biological mother, may even still have been alive when Nefertiti visited Solomon. In other words, Nefertiti was half-Hittite (from Uriah) and half Jewish (from Bathsheba).

Are you perhaps referring to the bride Solomon received from the an Egyptian Pharaoh? She may have been one of the numerous daughters of Amehotep III, given to Solomon as bride by Nefertiti and Akhenaten as a sign of goodwill.

Ah... I see after re-reading. You are saying Bathsheba (wife of Uriah the Hittite) was the daughter of Sheba son of Bikri (2nd Samuael 20). And that Bathsheba had at least one daughter who escaped to Egypt to live with Joseph. But how would Sheba, or Bathsheba have known Joseph to send this girl there?

Are you talking about the Joseph, son of Jacob (12th son), from Genesis? If so then he, Joseph would have to be monsterously old, since he would have been Moses's great, great Uncle. And David, having been decended from Judah (Jacob's 4th son) would have been his great, great, great, great, great, great, great, great grand uncle (8 "greats"). I don't think he would still be around after 11 generations...

Edited by DieChecker, 03 February 2013 - 10:26 PM.

[Abramelin]

questionmark, on 03 February 2013 - 05:46 PM, said:

The problem we have here, no matter if around 1000 BC or 1300 BC, there is very little archeological evidence for the whole line of David, and should there have been a King David of Judah, he surely did not have the importance attributed to him. Judah was a quite unimportant place and its capital a 3 goat town. If you want to find anything relevant of the era and to Judaism you have to search in Samaria.

Why would such an unimportant '3 goat town' show up in ancient Egyptian and Akkadian records?

A city called Rušalimum or Urušalimum (Foundation of Shalem) is mentioned twice in ancient Egyptian records. These references are widely, if not universally, assumed to indicate Jerusalem, and date back to the 19th and 18th centuries BCE. The name recurs in Akkadian cuneiform as Urušalim, in the Amarna tablets datable to the 1400-1360 BCE.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jerusalem

[Armchair Educated]

interesting stuff but joseph and david arnt alive at the same time i thought

[questionmark]

Abramelin, on 04 February 2013 - 07:11 AM, said:

Why would such an unimportant '3 goat town' show up in ancient Egyptian and Akkadian records?

A city called Rušalimum or Urušalimum (Foundation of Shalem) is mentioned twice in ancient Egyptian records. These references are widely, if not universally, assumed to indicate Jerusalem, and date back to the 19th and 18th centuries BCE. The name recurs in Akkadian cuneiform as Urušalim, in the Amarna tablets datable to the 1400-1360 BCE.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jerusalem

Well, have a look at what they excavated and then tell me, but I guess it is more due to the fact that Judah was not an independent kingdom until around the 4th century, but sometimes an Egyptian province, others an Egyptian colony and mostly an Egyptian protectorate (until the Babylonians had enough of the crap and took the whole thing over). After that a Persian province and a Greek province. The Kings of Judah were as independent as Erich Honecker's GDR or Czechoslovakia (until 1990, that is). An Jerusalem means city of peace in Hebrew and much more likely to be the origin of the name, so it might be very possible that Urusalim is a completely different place.

[Abramelin]

questionmark, on 04 February 2013 - 02:02 PM, said:

Well, have a look at what they excavated and then tell me, but I guess it is more due to the fact that Judah was not an independent kingdom until around the 4th century, but sometimes an Egyptian province, others an Egyptian colony and mostly an Egyptian protectorate (until the Babylonians had enough of the crap and took the whole thing over). After that a Persian province and a Greek province. The Kings of Judah were as independent as Erich Honecker's GDR or Czechoslovakia (until 1990, that is). An Jerusalem means city of peace in Hebrew and much more likely to be the origin of the name, so it might be very possible that Urusalim is a completely different place.

You may be interested in what I just posted in the "Are the Jews Egyptians?" thread.

[questionmark]

Abramelin, on 04 February 2013 - 03:26 PM, said:

You may be interested in what I just posted in the "Are the Jews Egyptians?" thread.

Probably, but we always have to bear in mind that "Israel" was in fact two distinct nations until about the 7th century, Judah in the South (Egyptian protectorate)and Samaria (first pretty independent, later an Assyrian protectorate, short times also colonized by Egypt) in the North. It was not until a large part of the Samaritan population was displaced by the Babylonian occupation (most ending up in Judah) that we suddenly have an "Israeli tribe". Before that they hated each others guts (and if we are to believe the Bible were not on the best speaking terms once reunified under the Persian empire either).

[Riaan]

questionmark, on 03 February 2013 - 08:56 PM, said:

Where we have the Garden Eden and the rest... your problem is that nobody seems to agree with him.

The reason why nobody agrees with Rohl is that he shifts the well-established dating of the New Kingdom to the rather tenuous conventional dating of Saul and David. If he had done it the other way around, and moved only the dating of Saul and David earlier in time, I'm sure scholars would have taken him more seriously.

[Riaan]

DieChecker, on 03 February 2013 - 10:26 PM, said:

Ah... I see after re-reading. You are saying Bathsheba (wife of Uriah the Hittite) was the daughter of Sheba son of Bikri (2nd Samuael 20). And that Bathsheba had at least one daughter who escaped to Egypt to live with Joseph. But how would Sheba, or Bathsheba have known Joseph to send this girl there?

Are you talking about the Joseph, son of Jacob (12th son), from Genesis? If so then he, Joseph would have to be monsterously old, since he would have been Moses's great, great Uncle. And David, having been decended from Judah (Jacob's 4th son) would have been his great, great, great, great, great, great, great, great grand uncle (8 "greats"). I don't think he would still be around after 11 generations...

If Joseph had indeed risen to a position of power in Egypt, in fact, the most powerful man in Egypt second only to the king himself, everyone in Israel would have known about it.

Yes, exactly that Joseph. The Genesis account claims that there were many generations between Joseph and Moses. However, according to Justin in his Epitoma Historiarum Philippcarum 36.2, Moses was the son of Joseph, while Cheremon makes Joseph and Moses contemporaries (Josephus,Against Apion 1.32 (290-291). Both of these are correct - Moses as Prince Tuthmosis was the (grand)son of Joseph (Yuya) and Moses as a boy would have known his grandfather. The Genesis account must be incorrect in this respect and could very well have been doctored to hide Moses' true identity.

Edited by Riaan, 04 February 2013 - 05:02 PM.

[Abramelin]

questionmark, on 04 February 2013 - 03:52 PM, said:

Probably, but we always have to bear in mind that "Israel" was in fact two distinct nations until about the 7th century, Judah in the South (Egyptian protectorate)and Samaria (first pretty independent, later an Assyrian protectorate, short times also colonized by Egypt) in the North. It was not until a large part of the Samaritan population was displaced by the Babylonian occupation (most ending up in Judah) that we suddenly have an "Israeli tribe". Before that they hated each others guts (and if we are to believe the Bible were not on the best speaking terms once reunified under the Persian empire either).

In fact I was sort of agreeing with you about Jerusalem by redirecting you to that post in the "Are Jews Egyptians?" thread:

http://www.unexplain...30#entry4649953

I just didn't want to post that post in 2 threads.

The Egyptian "Urušalimum" could indeed be the Jewish Jerusalem... only not the one we all know of in present day Israel.

.

Edited by Abramelin, 04 February 2013 - 05:05 PM.

[Riaan]

Armchair Educated, on 04 February 2013 - 08:16 AM, said:

interesting stuff but joseph and david arnt alive at the same time i thought

See my response to DieChecker. According to Justin and Cheremon Joseph and Moses were contemporaries, and with Rohl's identification of David as the Amarna Dadua, David and Joseph would have been alive at the same time.

[questionmark]

Abramelin, on 04 February 2013 - 04:55 PM, said:

In fact I was sort of agreeing with you about Jerusalem by redirecting you to that post in the "Are Jews Egyptians?" thread.

I just didn't want to post that post in 2 threads.

The Egyptian "Urušalimum" could indeed be the Jewish Jerusalem... only not the one we all know of in present day Israel.

I think that if you want to find the place where things attributed to the house of David really happened you have to dig in Samaria. And yes, the pre 5th century Jerusalem could be in a completely different place than where we expect it to be.

Edited by questionmark, 04 February 2013 - 05:06 PM.

[Riaan]

cormac mac airt, on 03 February 2013 - 08:30 PM, said:

Would you care to cite that reference as it's not in Genesis Chapter 39, which is where the story is told. Also, what evidence do you have that Yuya was ever thrown in prison? As to the name Scharabel, it exists nowhere in the Bible so is rather meaningless.

cormac

Joseph's beauty or comeliness is described in Genesis 39:6.

There is no evidence that Yuya had been thrown in jail. The Arabic document merely confirms that this vizier had been alienated from his king, only to be reinstated and elevated at a later stage. This matches Joseph's fall from grace and his later appointment as a high profile figure in Egypt. Yuya must therefore have had a run-in with either Tuthmose IV or his son, Amenhotep III.

Edited by Riaan, 04 February 2013 - 05:09 PM.