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What evidence distinguishes a Witness of Rev?

two witnesses plague fire breathing supernatural power book of revelation

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#16    Raptor Witness

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Posted 18 June 2013 - 06:13 AM

View PostxFelix, on 17 June 2013 - 04:10 AM, said:

1) Super Volcanoes erupting.
2) Large Comet impacting.
3) Man made global warfare.

I don't think all three need to happen, each one individually can suffice to kill off most life on earth.
As I recall, if the infrastructure to keep track of everyone by number or a name is in place, that would appear to require a certain amount of stability. Also, the entire world exchanges gifts upon their deaths. So here too we see enough stability in place that would allow this to occur, even in the midst of what may be global disasters in volume.

View PostCopen, on 18 June 2013 - 02:02 AM, said:

The ability to burn up with a flame of fire proceeding from their mouths anyone who tries to harm them, is a pretty distinguishing evidence.  Shutting up the heaven so that it will not rain and then turning water into blood should be pretty convincing. The beast (the devil) that ascends out of hell will kill them. To be sure no one steals the dead bodies they will be watched every minute. They will not be dressed for burial, nor put in a grave.  When they come back to life, it should be pretty convincing that they are the two witnesses sent to preach.

The last days started in the apostolic age, when they said, "these last days." The last days have been going on for 2,000 years (give or take a few years).

I am in agreement with the Christians who don't believe this "rapture" theory that Christians are going to be snatched out before the persecution and tribulation era. I do believe there is going to be a judgment and separating of Christians, one from the other. Two preachers will be working the gospel field and one will be taken.

I picture being "taken" as mass numbers in a sudden death rather than a snatching away into heaven. After all I Cor. 15: 52 says, "In the twinkling of an eye, AT THE LAST TRUMP..." There a many trumpets being sounded in Revelation. I think right before God calls His people to come out of the harlot is a trump.

The harlot is a wealthy false teaching Christian church. A harlot sells herself in order to live - - and sometimes quite financially well off. The harlot church is here today selling trinkets, crosses, trips, dvds, yard sales, bake sales, cruises, & etc. You name it and they sell it in order to survive, or finance their pet charity. Yet, God says in Revelation about the harlot, "Come out of her MY PEOPLE, lest you be partakers of her sins, and that ye receive not her plagues."

Sounds like Christians, like the blind Laodiocia church, will be very actively committed to the harlot. Undoubtedly, many Christians will stay in her and therefore go through some anguish.

Wouldn't there be mass confusion if many Christians suddenly died and had to be buried in mass graves because of the overwhelming numbers of them, while many more Christians are still alive? Sheep and goats. The sickle reaping the wheat.
A lot to think about about, and it's 2 AM where I am, so I'll sleep on this one.

Edited by Raptor Witness, 18 June 2013 - 06:20 AM.

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#17    No-thingBornPassion

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Posted 21 June 2013 - 11:34 PM

View PostRaptor Witness, on 16 June 2013 - 06:58 AM, said:

What evidence would you look for, to determine if a Witness of Revelation had appeared on earth, based upon your present knowledge; without looking up the reference?

What would you be looking for, and please be specific?
Psalm 69 + sackcloth.

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#18    Jor-el

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Posted 23 June 2013 - 02:49 PM

View PostRaptor Witness, on 16 June 2013 - 06:58 AM, said:

What evidence would you look for, to determine if a Witness of Revelation had appeared on earth, based upon your present knowledge; without looking up the reference?

This isn't a memory test, or a Bible school study quiz. It's about what you already know, without any reference.

Imagine that in an instant, every Bible on earth vanished, and all you had, was what was in your head now.

What would you be looking for, and please be specific?

If you haven't a clue, without referencing the passage, then please pass on a reply.

Well, I would look for their names, they can only be two of them and they need to be connected to people we know, didn't die. That would leave us Enoch and Elijah.

This is important for a number of reasons, the 1st being that Elijah was always supposed to come announcing the coming of the Messiah. That is why so many people asked if John the Baptist was indeed Elijah returned. Even to this day the Jews traditionally hold an empty place at the table when celebrating Passover or Pesach as they call it.

This tradition remains central to Judaism today and is a reflection of the announcement theme.

The other witness would be Enoch who was taken to be with the Lord, because of his devoutness and faithfulness to God, the book of Enoch, although a work of fiction clearly demonstrates early Jewish fascination with Enoch and his removal from the Earth.

The two witnesses are definitely men and they are definitely human beings, they are not angels and they are not Christians. They are there with one purpose and that is two declare the power of God to the world in thrall of the Antichrist and his universalist philosophy.

The fact that they are murdered in full view of the world and probably branded as terrorists as well is clear, since they are left where they were killed for 3 entire days without anyone removing their bodies. On the 3rd day, they miraculously come to life again, they are resurrected, as Jesus once was, and they continue to Prophesy to the world about what is coming. They then ascend to heaven in much the same way Jesus did as well.

Edited by Jor-el, 23 June 2013 - 02:52 PM.

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#19    Jor-el

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Posted 23 June 2013 - 02:59 PM

View PostCopen, on 18 June 2013 - 02:02 AM, said:


I am in agreement with the Christians who don't believe this "rapture" theory that Christians are going to be snatched out before the persecution and tribulation era. I do believe there is going to be a judgment and separating of Christians, one from the other. Two preachers will be working the gospel field and one will be taken.

I picture being "taken" as mass numbers in a sudden death rather than a snatching away into heaven. After all I Cor. 15: 52 says, "In the twinkling of an eye, AT THE LAST TRUMP..." There a many trumpets being sounded in Revelation. I think right before God calls His people to come out of the harlot is a trump.

Do you know what the reference to the "Last Trump" means?

It has nothing to do with the very last Trumpet blown in heaven, it is in actual fact a reference to a military signal used in the Roman Legions as well as in other militaries from ancient times. We don't find Paul explaining this in any detail which means that the reference was well known to the readers of his letters.

In effect the last trump sounds at the end of a Battle, or even at the end of a specific duty watch, like sentry duty. When it sounds it means the battle is over or the watch is over and the soldiers on duty are being substituted.

Everybody thinks that it has somehow something to do with the 2nd coming, when in fact it does not. There is a lot of confusion about the rapture because of a tendency to misinterpret a lot of different verses. The rapture is in fact biblical and a very real event that will take place.

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#20    Bluefinger

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Posted 24 June 2013 - 04:00 PM

View PostRaptor Witness, on 16 June 2013 - 06:58 AM, said:

What evidence would you look for, to determine if a Witness of Revelation had appeared on earth, based upon your present knowledge; without looking up the reference?

This isn't a memory test, or a Bible school study quiz. It's about what you already know, without any reference.

Imagine that in an instant, every Bible on earth vanished, and all you had, was what was in your head now.

What would you be looking for, and please be specific?

If you haven't a clue, without referencing the passage, then please pass on a reply.

I'd be looking at governments anointed by God to spread the testimony of Jesus and teach His commands.  It says elsewhere in Revelation that the testimony of Jesus as ruler over the kings of the earth is spirit of prophecy.

Now these two witnesses are also called prophets.  Thus they testify of Jesus.  How they afflict the people of earth is really about the blessings of Abraham.  God blessed Abraham, saying that those who blessed him would be blessed and those that cursed him would be cursed.  Those that harm the two witnesses are harmed in the same manner.  And they have the authority as both kings and priests.

They are not two individuals but are rather two groups of believers that have inherited the blessings of Abraham.  They are the Jewish and Gentile disciples of Jesus.  Hence the 144,000 and the great Gentile multitude as well as the woman with twelve stars and her offspring.  Back when Revelation was written, both groups resided among the Romans.  I think the two witnesses primarily involve the Gentiles though, because the prophecy of the two witnesses came just after John was told to make a new prophecy about many nations, languages, tribes, and kings.

If Jesus is currently ruler of the kings of the earth, and I believe He is, then the two witnesses are the mechanism for spreading His kingdom.  Theyvwould exercise their authority through sanctions and warfare, shown by biblical language of holding back the rain and turning water to blood.  Elijah prayed that the rain would cease during his prophecy, aimed at testifying about the one true God amidst the other religions.  Aaron stuck Moses' staff (I think) in the water and turned to blood, aimed at establishing the commandments of God that would govern God's people in His chosen kingdom.

I think that this has been going on for nearly two thousand years now.  As you can see today, people are getting fed up with us Christians telling them about Jesus and forcing them to live by the commandments.  Over in Israel, the Islamic Palestinians face the same circumstance with the Jews.  It sounds all to true to me.

It is not enough to have a good mind.  The main thing is to use it well.     - Descartes

#21    Quaentum

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Posted 24 June 2013 - 08:53 PM

View PostRaptor Witness, on 16 June 2013 - 06:58 AM, said:

What evidence would you look for, to determine if a Witness of Revelation had appeared on earth, based upon your present knowledge; without looking up the reference?

This isn't a memory test, or a Bible school study quiz. It's about what you already know, without any reference.

Imagine that in an instant, every Bible on earth vanished, and all you had, was what was in your head now.

What would you be looking for, and please be specific?

If you haven't a clue, without referencing the passage, then please pass on a reply.

If every holy book vanished or better yet we'll say they never were.  Then there is a chance that no one would know revelation from natural disasters and there would be no witnesses of revelation.  What people know of revelation comes from the bible so to eliminate it means there is no knowledge that such an event could be.

If, however, you leave the bible and references to revelation then I would say that after a third of the population disappeared, everybody who was left would be a witness of revelation.

AA LOGIC
They didn't use thousands of workers - oops forgot about the work camps
There's no evidence for ramps - You found one?...Bummer
Well we know they didn't use ancient tools to cut and shape the stones - Chisel marks?  Craps
I still say aliens built them!

#22    Raptor Witness

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Posted 26 June 2013 - 05:25 AM

View Postbraveone2u, on 21 June 2013 - 11:34 PM, said:

Psalm 69 + sackcloth.
Excellent reference, but this isn't like a prophet ever seen before. These men will not have to ask God for protection.

Sackcloth symbolizes a complete and total rejection of humanism. It symbolizes a rejection of human power based upon appearance. By stripping off the power of men, distinguished by the clothing we wear, the full power of God is achieved through us.  Jesus hated the use of clothing to symbolize God's power, if you pay careful attention. It's a hint of the same type of thing.

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#23    No-thingBornPassion

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Posted 09 August 2013 - 12:11 PM

View PostRaptor Witness, on 26 June 2013 - 05:25 AM, said:

Excellent reference, but this isn't like a prophet ever seen before. These men will not have to ask God for protection.

Sackcloth symbolizes a complete and total rejection of humanism. It symbolizes a rejection of human power based upon appearance. By stripping off the power of men, distinguished by the clothing we wear, the full power of God is achieved through us.  Jesus hated the use of clothing to symbolize God's power, if you pay careful attention. It's a hint of the same type of thing.
First you have to read Psalm 69 to understand my take on this subject. It has nothing to do with clothing, nor clothing being the symbol of God's power. The Two Witnesses, I believe, will come with a heavy heart, and that will be the clue. It has nothing to do with total rejection of humanity. In fact, it's the other way around. Their good intention to save people will be rejected by many. They will be attacked and eventually killed. Psalm 69 mirrors the Two Witnesses. You have to keep in mind that the Two Prophets are still human beings with love in their hearts. They will need God's assistance (at least mentally) to do these terrible things...for them to go on with the HORROR SHOW. They're not robots. They are prophets. I would imagine that prophets have kind and loving hearts; unfortunately, this is sometimes lost in translation. I'm pretty sure they wouldn't feel wild about the END OF THE WORLD with many of their fellow human beings dying an eternal death. Their hearts will be broken. They will not jump for joy.

I think you already have your mind made up about the Two Witnesses.  


Peace (and everlasting life to all).

Edited by braveone2u, 09 August 2013 - 12:24 PM.

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#24    bassai26

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Posted 09 August 2013 - 12:20 PM

wars, chaos, unknown viruses spreading, political conflicts, global warming, unexpected events like disasters, typhoons, earthquakes - :no:


#25    Raptor Witness

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Posted 10 August 2013 - 06:56 AM

View Postbraveone2u, on 09 August 2013 - 12:11 PM, said:

First you have to read Psalm 69 to understand my take on this subject. It has nothing to do with clothing, nor clothing being the symbol of God's power. The Two Witnesses, I believe, will come with a heavy heart, and that will be the clue. It has nothing to do with total rejection of humanity. In fact, it's the other way around. Their good intention to save people will be rejected by many. They will be attacked and eventually killed.
I don't think begging for power will be their problem. I think a fear of using it will be their primary concern, hence perhaps why they were chosen.

No one would be chosen who was eager to do what they must and will do, just as Moses was reluctant, and even Jesus.

I've broken my own rule in the OP, by expanding my suspicion to researching that they might be two cherubs. The reason for this is simple. The guardian of the Tree of Life falls, and he is a cherub. We know that there are at least four, and possibly more. Even in human flesh they would have the authority to distribute God's power, and yes, show it off, to distinguish it clearly from that of men, who have become god like through their technology, with Satan's help. After all, having been thrown to the earth, he's trying to claw his way back to Heaven, through men.

These two may even have professions that would make them reluctant or even curious why they were chosen. For example, Jesus was a carpenter, hence his statement that he could destroy the Temple and rebuild it in three days. He also leaves to build a home for the church. It makes perfect sense that He would be a carpenter in the flesh.

Unlike Jesus' rejection of the use of angelic armies at the time of this own death, which He clearly states He could, these two cherubs in the flesh will have an army of angels helping and protecting them, just as the fallen cherub, who has abandoned his post at the Tree of Life.

In the end, the two give up their protection, or it is withdrawn, somehow or way, like Jesus.

How else could men come even close to genetically engineering their own everlasting life without resurrection, if that guardian cherub at the Tree of Life, hadn't abandoned his post? So perhaps the flaming sword, by mouth, is passed to the two witnesses, instead. They then move to block men from gaining access to the Tree of Life. So their role may be multi-purposed, given their similar use of fire as a means of protection.

I also suspect that, like Jesus, they will have a death wish, of sorts. He knew He would be killed if went to Jerusalem, and He knew by causing a disturbance in the Temple, it would give good cause before Pilot. Nevertheless, He had every right to do this, because it was His Father's house.

These two witnesses may even be unaware of the others identity, for reasons that aren't clear at first, but which become clearer before they are murdered. After all, in any court, what witness testifies in synchronized fashion? They speak one at a time, and perhaps are even separated deliberately.

These are just evolving theories, and since I have now broken my own request in the OP of no further research, you might as well throw yours out there, with additional research.

Edited by Raptor Witness, 10 August 2013 - 07:10 AM.

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#26    Scheming B

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Posted 10 August 2013 - 07:11 AM

What would I do?

Head to the woods, try to stay out of sight of other people.

If the prophecies of eh bible are to be literal as this scenario suggests, it's not gonna be a pretty ride for the world, so becoming a crazy hermit in the hills seems like a good game plan.

Stop being frightened. You only see a monster because they want you to see monsters everywhere. They've conditioned you to look for monsters in every shadow, every coat hung on every door. As long as we keep seeing monsters, we'll continue to need protection and that's how other people get to control our lives.


#27    No-thingBornPassion

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Posted 10 August 2013 - 12:31 PM

View PostRaptor Witness, on 10 August 2013 - 06:56 AM, said:

I don't think begging for power will be their problem. I think a fear of using it will be their primary concern, hence perhaps why they were chosen.

No one would be chosen who was eager to do what they must and will do, just as Moses was reluctant, and even Jesus.

I've broken my own rule in the OP, by expanding my suspicion to researching that they might be two cherubs. The reason for this is simple. The guardian of the Tree of Life falls, and he is a cherub. We know that there are at least four, and possibly more. Even in human flesh they would have the authority to distribute God's power, and yes, show it off, to distinguish it clearly from that of men, who have become god like through their technology, with Satan's help. After all, having been thrown to the earth, he's trying to claw his way back to Heaven, through men.

These two may even have professions that would make them reluctant or even curious why they were chosen. For example, Jesus was a carpenter, hence his statement that he could destroy the Temple and rebuild it in three days. He also leaves to build a home for the church. It makes perfect sense that He would be a carpenter in the flesh.

Unlike Jesus' rejection of the use of angelic armies at the time of this own death, which He clearly states He could, these two cherubs in the flesh will have an army of angels helping and protecting them, just as the fallen cherub, who has abandoned his post at the Tree of Life.

In the end, the two give up their protection, or it is withdrawn, somehow or way, like Jesus.

How else could men come even close to genetically engineering their own everlasting life without resurrection, if that guardian cherub at the Tree of Life, hadn't abandoned his post? So perhaps the flaming sword, by mouth, is passed to the two witnesses, instead. They then move to block men from gaining access to the Tree of Life. So their role may be multi-purposed, given their similar use of fire as a means of protection.

I also suspect that, like Jesus, they will have a death wish, of sorts. He knew He would be killed if went to Jerusalem, and He knew by causing a disturbance in the Temple, it would give good cause before Pilot. Nevertheless, He had every right to do this, because it was His Father's house.

These two witnesses may even be unaware of the others identity, for reasons that aren't clear at first, but which become clearer before they are murdered. After all, in any court, what witness testifies in synchronized fashion? They speak one at a time, and perhaps are even separated deliberately.

These are just evolving theories, and since I have now broken my own request in the OP of no further research, you might as well throw yours out there, with additional research.
Psalm 69 is an inner dialog, a meditation, but I also know that it has other meanings to other people, such as Jesus on the cross. And of course, it's not about begging for power. At any rate, I'm presenting some key words...

- will appoint

- "I will appoint my two witnesses."

- "two anointed ones"

- "two sons of fresh oil"

- fresh = new = current

The two witnesses will not be prophets of old. They will be bringing inspired news from God, "fresh oil" for the CURRENT churches, because they will know and see Him. These two will be of their time, but they will know the failures of their time because they will be hip and "with it." They will be au courant. They are witnesses, after all, God's chosen witnesses. Just a thought.


Peace.

Edited by braveone2u, 10 August 2013 - 12:37 PM.

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Distinguish between spin doctoring and truth. Keep in mind that truth is ALMOST impossible to figure out when it comes to ancient holy book.

#28    Raptor Witness

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Posted 11 August 2013 - 12:26 AM

View Postbraveone2u, on 10 August 2013 - 12:31 PM, said:

?.. The two witnesses will not be prophets of old. They will be bringing inspired news from God, "fresh oil" for the CURRENT churches, because they will know and see Him. These two will be of their time, but they will know the failures of their time because they will be hip and "with it." They will be au courant. They are witnesses, after all, God's chosen witnesses. Just a thought.

Peace.
Yes , but witnesses to what?  You don't sell Jesus by forced conversion, that was never part of His message. They're here to sell just the opposite of healing, the opposite of calming the storm. They're selling wrath, but not to force conversion.

Edited by Raptor Witness, 11 August 2013 - 12:27 AM.

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#29    Raptor Witness

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Posted 11 August 2013 - 03:31 AM

Perhaps one of the more interesting aspects of this case, is that the prosecutor goes on to kill these witnesses, who are then restored to life by the Judge.

Why would the witnesses be harmed by the prosecutor?  That's quite a twist, and is very revealing.

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#30    No-thingBornPassion

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Posted 11 August 2013 - 12:04 PM

View PostRaptor Witness, on 11 August 2013 - 12:26 AM, said:

Yes , but witnesses to what?  You don't sell Jesus by forced conversion, that was never part of His message. They're here to sell just the opposite of healing, the opposite of calming the storm. They're selling wrath, but not to force conversion.
By the time God appoints the two witnesses, they will also have the knowledge of escape, to tell their newly converts where to go to protect themselves, and this is the "inspired news" I mentioned earlier. I think their prophesies will also coincide with their God-given supernatural powers: fire, waters turning blood, plagues, drought and so on. "Selling wrath" is not the correct analogy.

"Witness" has 3 levels, I believe: knowledge of their time-frame (au courant), seeing God in person, and like John, God will give them that vision of the cataclysmic future, the Second Coming, etc.


Peace.

Edited by braveone2u, 11 August 2013 - 12:40 PM.

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Distinguish between spin doctoring and truth. Keep in mind that truth is ALMOST impossible to figure out when it comes to ancient holy book.




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