The Dogon Tribe

[Universal Absurdity]

In Mali, West Africa, lives a tribe of people called the Dogon. The Dogon are believed to be of Egyptian decent and their astronomical lore goes back thousands of years to 3200 BC. According to their traditions, the star Sirius has a companion star which is invisible to the human eye. This companion star has a 50 year elliptical orbit around the visible Sirius and is extremely heavy. It also rotates on its axis.

This legend might be of little interest to anybody but the two French anthropologists, Marcel Griaule and Germain Dieterlen, who recorded it from four Dogon priests in the 1930's. Of little interest except that it is exactly true. How did a people who lacked any kind of astronomical devices know so much about an invisible star? The star, which scientists call Sirius B, wasn't even photographed until it was done by a large telescope in 1970.

The Dogon stories explain that also. According to their oral traditions, a race people from the Sirius system called the Nommos visited Earth thousands of years ago. The Nommos were ugly, amphibious beings that resembled mermen and mermaids. They also appear in Babylonian, Accadian, and Sumerian myths. The Egyptian Goddess Isis, who is sometimes depicted as a mermaid, is also linked with the star Sirius.

The Nommos, according to the Dogon legend, lived on a planet that orbits another star in the Sirius system. They landed on Earth in an "ark" that made a spinning decent to the ground with great noise and wind. It was the Nommos that gave the Dogon the knowledge about Sirius B.

The legend goes on to say the Nommos also furnished the Dogon's with some interesting information about our own solar system: That the planet Jupiter has four major moons, that Saturn has rings and that the planets orbit the sun. These were all facts discovered by Westerners only after Galileo invented the telescope.

The story of the Dogon and their legend was first brought to popular attention by Robert K.G. Temple in a book published in 1977 called The Sirius Mystery. Science writer Ian Ridpath and astronomer Carl Sagan made a reply to Temple's book, suggesting that this modern knowledge about Sirius must have come from Westerners who discussed astronomy with the Dogon priests. The priests then included this new information into the older traditions. This, in turn, mislead the anthropologists.

This is a possibility considering Sirius B's existence was suspected as early as 1844 and seen was through a telescope in 1862. It doesn't seem to explain a 400-year old Dogon artifact that apparently depicts the Sirius configuration nor the ceremonies held by the Dogon since the 13th century to celebrate the cycle of Sirius A and B. It also doesn't explain how the Dogons knew about the super-density of Sirius B, a fact only discovered a few years before the anthropologists recorded the Dogon stories.

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In 1862, Sirius was discovered to be a binary star system with a companion star, Sirius B, 10,000 times dimmer than the bright primary, Sirius A. Sirius B was the first white dwarf star discovered, a type of star first understood by Subrahmanyan Chandrasekhar in 1930. While studying Sirius in 1718, Edmond Halley discovered that stars move with respect to each other. The Sirius system is shown above captured in X-ray light.

From APOD

This has facinated me since i read about it a few years ago. i searched and found no topics on the dogon. Please, tell me what you think.

[Falco Rex]

Hey UA. I found an article from Fortean Times about this subject. Don't know if it has any new information for you, but here's the link..

Dogonshame

[antares]

Very interesting article.

While I was in college, I attended a class called "History of Astronomy". The first lecture was dedicated to the ancient knowledge of astronomy and the lecturer mentioned Egypt, Shumeria and the Dogon tribe. Recently I read a book called "The book of hopi" - a native American tribe living in the Southwest. I was amazed by their cosmology and the evolution theory described in the myths of creation. All this knowledge coming from ancient times makes me to believe that the human race is so much older than what is written in the history textbooks...

[Falco Rex]

Yeah, God only knows how much knowledge we lost when they burned down the Library at Alexandria. Most of it was knowledge about Ancient Cultures that we can never fully recover..

[Misery]

What an interesting article. This is the first time I've heard about this. It makes sense since the Egyptians were very advanced in astronomy.

[Chauncy]

Great thread UA!

In all reality how could anyone ever doubt that we have a most ancient history that we are not aware of.

How could anyone doubt that we are a species that extends back a lot longer than generally applied. It frustrates me to say the least.

Considering that there doesn't appear to be any sky gazing equipment in our ancient history, then space travel seems logical. Now, not saying that mankind traveled in space, but it does appear that someone that did travel in space told mankind about it among other knowledge as well.

Here's a cool site that deals with the mythology of the Dogon, very intriguing I must say. http://www.sju.edu/cas/theology/Courses/11...ogon/Demott.htm

They used to layout their villages in accordance to their philosophies. This is the Dogon 'Egg of the world' and is similar to the map the drew of Sirius.

[jonfr]

This is strange.....

[Universal Absurdity]

Falco

Thanks for the link, surprisingly, i've read about the council of nine.

interesting stuff. probably worth another thread at some point in time

About the 'outsider influence' i dont buy it. the dogon has to have had knowledge of the cirrus star system, considering that there are artifacts depicting what they had learned dating to some 400 years prior to the discovery of the knowledge gained from their space friends. to top it off they have celebrations based on the rotational period of sirius b, which have been a custom for hundreds of years.

The knowledge passed on from generation to generation was only passed to the higher ranking tribesmen, suggesting that this is serious information passed on only to those who would be respected, and worthy of choosing the next person to gain the knowledge. (this would eliminate ridecule, and disbelief over long periods of time)

i believe they were visited.

[Falco Rex]

Well, if the Dogon really were of Egyptian descent then their knowledge of Sirius isn't all that surprising. We know that the Egyptians had this knowledge. Even if they were'nt there's a strong case for them picking it up from Egpyt..

People tend to think of Mali as it exists today, when they think of it at all. Few know that Mali was once one of the most advanced and cultured kingdoms in Africa. They must have had some contact with Egypt through trade. I believe Herodotus even mentions that one Pharoah sent an army to try and conquer it, although they all died in the desert along the way..

One tribe retaining some of the knowledge their anscestors had isn't surprising. As to whether they were visited or not, I don't feel qualified to judge..

[Chauncy]

One tribe retaining some of the knowledge their anscestors had isn't surprising. As to whether they were visited or not, I don't feel qualified to judge..

This knowledge being handed down from ancestors is very likely. But this also puts this knowledge at even an earlier time, which makes it all the more anomolous.

I'm wondering if this invisible star that they have known about was actually at one time visible or brighter. The legends of the Dogon could stem from a very,very early period before this star dimmed.

Is this possible?

[antares]

This Dogon 'Egg of the world' is really amazing, few months ago I read a book about the ancient civilization of Lemuria - the author said that Lemuria vanished from the face of the Earth because the "primordial egg of the world" was broken by an ignorant and greedy man.

Seems that this symbol reappeared some how in the Dogon mythology, very very interesting...

[Astral_sailor_Eric]

Greetings Fellow earthling and to my friend jonfr

I like what is posted can someone tell me more i surly am intrested

Edited June 18, 2004 by Astral_sailor_Eric

[Erikl]

Well, if the Dogon really were of Egyptian descent then their knowledge of Sirius isn't all that surprising. We know that the Egyptians had this knowledge. Even if they were'nt there's a strong case for them picking it up from Egpyt..

People tend to think of Mali as it exists today, when they think of it at all. Few know that Mali was once one of the most advanced and cultured kingdoms in Africa. They must have had some contact with Egypt through trade. I believe Herodotus even mentions that one Pharoah sent an army to try and conquer it, although they all died in the desert along the way..

One tribe retaining some of the knowledge their anscestors had isn't surprising. As to whether they were visited or not, I don't feel qualified to judge..

Well, what I find scary is the fact that a glorious civilization such as that of Mali can disappear and leave no trace behind.

If it happened to them, it can surly happen to us.

When you think about it - our dark ages weren't really dark - we didn't lose anything from the Romans. As a matter of fact, most of Western culture is a direct descendant of Roman culture.

But what if we were to decline as the Mali civlization did?

Who would know about our great civilization?

Scary stuff...

[Chauncy]

As a matter of fact, most of Western culture is a direct descendant of Roman culture.

'Roman culture' or nomenclature......I dunno

What was so special about the Roman way of things that made things the way they are in the 'west' ?

How come 'Roman culture' didn't affect the Dogon?

[Falco Rex]

How come "Roman Culture" didn't effect the Dogon?

The Romans didn't effect any of central and southern Africa because of two factors:

1. The difficulty of crossing the Sahara.

2. Their inability to fully subjugate the fierce desert tribes.

The Sahara effectively walled-off the rest of Africa from the North. Usually any trade contacts were made with the same desert tribes mentioned above, who acted as go-betweens..

[Halo_Jones]

Heres a bit I wrote a while back about " The Dogan Tribe" at another site

The Dogon tells the legend of the Nommos, awful-looking beings who arrived in a vessel along with fire and thunder.

After they arrived here - they put out a reservoir of water onto the Earth then dove into the water.

There are references in the oral traditions, drawings and cuneiform tablets of the Dogons, to human looking beings who have feet but who are portrayed as having a large fish skin running down their bodies.

The Nommos were more fishlike than human, and had to live in water. They were saviors and spiritual guardians:

"The Nommo divided his body among men to feed them; that is why it is also said that as the universe "had drunk of his body," the Nommo also made men drink. He gave all his life principles to human beings." The Nommo was crucified and resurrected and in the future will again visit the Earth, this time in human form. Later he will assume his amphibious form and will rule the world from the waters.

The above statement sounds very familiar to Christian beliefs....could Christ be the Human form and we are yet to see his final amphibious form?

Similar creatures have been noted in other ancient civilizations -- Sumer, Babylonia's Oannes, Acadia's Ea, Sumer's Enki, and Egypt's goddess Isis.

Chronologically, the earliest of these amphibious entities would appear to be the Babylonian fish-people. They were known to the Babylonians as the Annedoti, which translates as 'repulsive', but notwithstanding their unappealing appearance they were sufficiently influential for the Babylonians to accept their teachings and acquire from them the fundamental tenets of civilisation. The most august member of the Annedoti was Oannes, portrayed in ancient Babylonian depictions as a curious, complex hybrid of human and fish, with a bearded man's head beneath the head of a fish, and the body of a fish borne upon the back of a man's body.

According to Babylonian legends, this aquatic deity would come on land during the day to teach the people, and would dive back at night into the Persian Gulf, where he lived in an underwater palace called the Apsu. Was Oannes the original Nommo?

Equivalent to Oannes in the religion of the Philistines at Philistia (in what is now Israel) was a human-bodied, fish-tailed deity called Dagon. Further to the west, Pharos in northern Egypt was said to be the home of 'the Old Man of the Sea' ­ a shape-shifting amphibious deity known as Proteus, son of Oceanus and renowned among the ancient Greeks as an oracle. Significantly, their traditional legends specifically claimed that he often sheltered in a cave to avoid the heat of Sirius.

linkie

[Alfaman]

Thought i'd kick start this thread, its fascinating. How they knew that Sirius was a triple star system is beyond me, We have only recently found this out with the Hubble Space Telescope

[Mr Ed]

I find this story very interesting and I cannot really explain it.

The biggest criticism I have of it is why are the Dogon people not advanced technologically...?

[Alfaman]

Perhaps they were but when you consider that they have been around for the best part of 5000 years some of that knowledge will be invariably lost over time. I think that this must taken as proof of higher intelligence because it was documented in the 1930's by those French blokes and the Dogon would have had nothing to gain back then.

[Mr Ed]

If aliens had visited them and given them knowledge of that star, then they probably would have given them other things also...information or knowledge that wouldn't have been lost.

[Essan]

Thought i'd kick start this thread, its fascinating.  How they knew that Sirius was a triple star system is beyond me, We have only recently found this out with the Hubble Space Telescope

639392[/snapback]

I think you'll find there's a simple answer to that: they didn't.

[Alfaman]

It must have been an amazing guess, pointing to a random star in the night sky and saying "thats not a single star its three really". The Dogon stated this in the 1930's to those French anthropologists but Sirius wasn't photographed with a telescope until the 1970's.

[DJ_Quinn]

I have always been skeptical of the anthropologists who "discovered" the Dogon Tribe.

Skepticism is the basis for science. As such, skeptisicm is absolutely crucial in order to discover the truth. It is true that far too many people are gullible, rather than skeptical. This gullibility has led to the unthinking following of idiotic and dangerous ideologies that make human beings nothing more than sheep and slaves. Millions are convinced, merely on the words of others, that there are invisible creatures of one or another ethnicity, race gender or form, such as gods, sons of gods, virgin mothers, angels, devils, etc., who are directing life behind the scenes. While there are indeed unseen forces at work in nature, what they have been too frequently portrayed as are mere cultural artifacts and hallucinations, instead of ultimate realities. Indeed, mindlessly believing in these limited depictions of the mysterious and enigmatic without thorough investigation is not healthy. But hardcore skepticism that reduces the cosmos to nothing but mechanical matter and third-dimensional, mundane mediocrity is not healthy either. In this sense, the gullible follower and the hardcore skeptic are in the same boat. And the paradox thus presented is at the core of the quest for understanding the workings of the universe.

[Essan]

It must have been an amazing guess, pointing to a random star in the night sky and saying "thats not a single star its three really".  The Dogon stated this in the 1930's to those French anthropologists but Sirius wasn't photographed with a telescope until the 1970's.

639457[/snapback]

Except they didn't

For example:

Walter Van Beek points out that Griaule and Dieterlen stand alone in their claims about the Dogon secret knowledge. No other anthropologist supports their opinions. In 1991, Van Beek led a team of anthropologists to Mali and declared that they found absolutely no trace of the detailed Sirius lore reported by the French anthropologists. James and Thorpe understate the problem when they say “this is very worrying.” Griaule claimed that about 15 per cent of the Dogon tribe possessed this secret knowledge, but Van Beek could find no trace of it in the decade he spent with the Dogon. Van Beek actually spoke to some of Griaule’s original informants; he noted that “though they do speak about sigu tolo [interpreted by Griaule as their name for Sirius itself], they disagree completely with each other as to which star is meant; for some, it is an invisible star that should rise to announce the sigu [festival], for another it is Venus that, through a different position, appears as sigu tolo. All agree, however, that they learned about the star from Griaule.”

http://www.forteantimes.com/articles/140_dogonshame.shtml

[marduk]

This thread is so full of fallacies erroneous information and made up crap that i don't know where to start.

Essan its all yours buddy

enjoy