Holland moves to ban Holocaust denial

[coldwhitelight]

Holland moves to ban Holocaust denial

By HILARY LEILA KRIEGER

When a Dutch family comes back to Holland after eight years of living in Israel, people tend to assume its members are Jewish.

So says Leon Meijer, and he should know. Meijer, who completed his doctorate at the Technion, learned that lesson the hard way when his 11-year-old daughter was told by a classmate soon after her return: "It's a pity Hitler didn't finish the job."

Meijer was shocked not only by the comment, but by the discovery that the Netherlands has no laws clearly outlawing Holocaust denial.

Now, six years later, he has drafted legislation which would do just that. Under his proposal, individuals who deny or glorify genocide with the intent to hurt others could be fined or sentenced to up to a year in jail. The law would be added to current legislation prohibiting discrimination on the grounds of race and religion.

Meijer, who serves as an adviser to the Christian Union party, which is sponsoring the legislation, described the measure as more urgent now that "echoes" of Iranian President Mahmoud Ahmadenijad's denials of the Holocaust could be heard in Holland. "People copy these kinds of remarks," he said, also noting that the number of Holocaust survivors who can personally testify to what happened during World War II is dwindling.

Though the Christian Union holds only three seats in the 150-member parliament, Meijer said that his bill enjoys a good deal of support. Even so, it would take at least six to nine months to approve.

He noted that possible pitfalls include fears that the law would limit free speech, which is one reason he offered to explain why Holland - unlike its neighbors - hasn't banned Holocaust denial outright.

France, Belgium, Switzerland, Germany, Austria, Romania, Slovakia, Czech Republic, Lithuania and Poland all have made Holocaust denial illegal, according to the Anti-Defamation League.

Dutch Jewish community leader Ronny Naftaniel said the proposed law could also encounter political obstacles. Since the law isn't limited to the Holocaust but includes all genocide as defined by the International Criminal Court, objections could arise based on other conflicts, such as the current crisis in Darfur or the past experience of Armenians in Turkey.

"I can imagine that there will be political difficulties, but maybe it will get through," said Naftaniel, director of the Center for Information and Documentation on Israel.

Even so, he praised the initiative as "a step forward." He noted that there has been prosecution of Holocaust denial under the existing Dutch anti-discrimination laws on the basis that negation of the Holocausts insults survivors and their children. But he said that any move to codify the offense was welcome.

"There are fewer and fewer survivors and even their children are not numerous anymore, and we think it's important to keep the symbol of the Holocaust complete and without debate. It should not be dependent on the survivors and their children," he said.

The general climate toward Jews worsened starting in 2000, with an increase in instances of spitting, name-calling and other forms of abuse, according to Naftaniel. But he said that the attacks - none of which were violent - had levelled off in the last few years.

Still, ADL associate national director Kenneth Jacobson said "any kind of effort for a Holocaust denial law is a way of dealing with the trend that's developing and to stop it in its tracks."

He noted, however, that "all the polls indicate the vast majority of Europeans" are aware that the Holocaust happened.

Source

[__Kratos__]

So says Leon Meijer, and he should know. Meijer, who completed his doctorate at the Technion, learned that lesson the hard way when his 11-year-old daughter was told by a classmate soon after her return: "It's a pity Hitler didn't finish the job."

Meijer was shocked not only by the comment, but by the discovery that the Netherlands has no laws clearly outlawing Holocaust denial.

It's hard to disagree with that Hitler comment when they turn around and try to cut down free speech, which I believe is a human right. It also means you have freedom to disagree.

Still, ADL associate national director Kenneth Jacobson said "any kind of effort for a Holocaust denial law is a way of dealing with the trend that's developing and to stop it in its tracks."

Here's something better... Get over yourselves and ignore idiots instead of becoming idiots yourselves.

[RedEyeJedi]

It's ridiculous. Why is it not against the law to deny the countless massacres, and indeed the extinction and near-extinction of whole races as a result of colonisation, throughout our not so distant past?

[Uversa]

It's ridiculous. Why is it not against the law to deny the countless massacres, and indeed the extinction and near-extinction of whole races as a result of colonisation, throughout our not so distant past?

Who honestly gives a toss wether a random stranger denies it or not? What possible reason have people got for getting upset and offended by this other than pure idiocy?

It is not rediculous that there is not a law against it at all. What is rediculous is the sheer pettiness of these offended people.

PS- Glorifying mass genocide is outright rude and uncalled for. But I just dont understand why someone would care if someone else denies it ever happened - so bloody what!?

Edited June 22, 2006 by Uversa

[Mars]

It's ridiculous. Why is it not against the law to deny the countless massacres, and indeed the extinction and near-extinction of whole races as a result of colonisation, throughout our not so distant past?

apparently you never heard of freedom of speech. I guess you want freedom of speech as long as it agrees with your views.

[RedEyeJedi]

apparently you never heard of freedom of speech. I guess you want freedom of speech as long as it agrees with your views.

Well actually I was being ironic, pointing out the hypocrisy, of one for rule for one and different rules for others.

[shikon1]

Just because someone denies one of the biggest massacres in history dosent mean you should ban it from being said, you cant kill ideas. If someone says it never happened either ignore them or ask them why they believe that. People these days get offended way to easily.

[StalingradK]

Drugs? Legal

Prostitution? Legal

Denying the Holocaust happened? Jail time for you in Holland!

[Erikl]

This law wasn't made out for no reason...

Holland with it's high muslim population had developed a serious problem of anti-semitism thanks to these muslim immigrants who bring with them hatred towards Israel and Dutch Jews.

It's no secret nor is it a racist propaganda that most of the modern anti-semitism in Western Europe is muslim-propogated rather than the local native European population.

[__Kratos__]

This law wasn't made out for no reason...

[Erikl]

But there is "BUT" in freedom of movement?

Let's realese all the rapists and murderers because I feel like the most important freedom is the freedom to move around.

[__Kratos__]

But there is "BUT" in freedom of movement?

Let's realese all the rapists and murderers because I feel like the most important freedom is the freedom to move around.

When you commit crimes that results that loss of freedom.

You can't legally yell "fire" in a theater... You can't threaten someone...

But just voicing your opinions isn't against the law nor should it be.

[Fluffybunny]

It doesn't make sense to outlaw ideas like this; as stupid as they may be, people have the right to think what they wish.

If the muslims in Holland are the target of this law, it will have absolutely no effect on their thoughts and will more thna likely add to the belief that the Jews are trying to control things that they should not...

If you wish to show that the holocaust did in fact happen, it seems to me that education would be the best way to pass along the information that people need to come to that decision; not a law telling people what to think.

[Erikl]

But just voicing your opinions isn't against the law nor should it be.

You ofcourse over-simplify it, just as I did when I compared the situation with muderers and the freedom to move.

But what about the historical precedants that "words can kill"?

Historically it's a fact, especially in Europe... and in these days, it's a reality in the case of radical muslims.

Why should it be legal to offend people in a way which is totaly unfair and directly attacks their ethnic background?

And especially when such offenses are used to propegate dangerous political ideas.

Look what happened when we gave freedom of speech to Hamas and let them participate in the recent Palestinian elections as you strongly supported - they got into office and now not only does the peace process is officialy dead, the Palestinians are having hard time because no one wants to give them any money out of fear it would go to terrorism.

[Fluffybunny]

Why should it be legal to offend people in a way which is totaly unfair and directly attacks their ethnic background?

It offends me that you just said that. The police are at your door now, please put your hands up and wait in jail until you stand trial for offending me.

If we start outlawing "offending people" everyone is going to be in jail. That is an incredible slippery slope to hell. That is why people should have the right to think what they want.

[__Kratos__]

You ofcourse over-simplify it, just as I did when I compared the situation with muderers and the freedom to move.

But what about the historical precedants that "words can kill"?

Historically it's a fact, especially in Europe... and in these days, it's a reality in the case of radical muslims.

Why should it be legal to offend people in a way which is totaly unfair and directly attacks their ethnic background?

And especially when such offenses are used to propegate dangerous political ideas.

Look what happened when we gave freedom of speech to Hamas and let them participate in the recent Palestinian elections as you strongly supported - they got into office and now not only does the peace process is officialy dead, the Palestinians are having hard time because no one wants to give them any money out of fear it would go to terrorism.

I don't think another Hitler is going to spring up. "DIE ERIKL!" - If you don't post here any more, at least I know you were right about words can kill.

Hmm... So if in Israel for the peace plan they ban any bad talk about or links to Hamas, would you agree? I mean surely you should have the right to disagree? So, you take away one persons right to complain about the Jews. What's it going to be tomarrow? What will be the next thing that people will disagree with?

"In Germany, the Nazis first came for the Communists, and I did not speak up, for I was not a Communist. Then they came for the Jews, and I did not speak up, for I was not a Jew. Then they came for the trade unionists, and I did not speak up, for I was not a trade unionist. Then they came for the Catholics, and I did not speak up, for I was a Protestant. And then they came for me, and by that time, no one was left to speak up."

- Martin Niemoller

I do support the choice of Hamas freely elected into the government. I hate those slimy crapbags but I believe in free elections. Now elected, the Internation community gave them the finger, rightfully so as well. Nobody said democrarcy was perfect, sometimes the masses make a mistake.

[Erikl]

Kratos, wake up and look east. Another Hitler already exists, atleast in ideological similarities.

People like Hitler have existed, still exist, and will exist in the future.

The only difference is how much power do they have to impelement their ideology.

And in today's world, freedom of speech can actually enable you to influence millions of people's way of thinking.

It's easy to say "xenophobia can be solved through education".

The truth is that many of the top Nazis were elite physicians or highly educated officers.

Many of today's terrorist leaders are also coincidently doctors, so you can't claim they are ignorant.

Iran is a very advanced country in terms of the value it puts of education. Many Iranians are highly educated in math or physics.

Yet they still believe in radical ideologies.

Education can't change them, because it's something they were grown into. It's their culture and they pass down that culture to the rest of the population by using the freedom of speech granted to them after they forcely grabbed control.

So, you take away one persons right to complain about the Jews. What's it going to be tomarrow? What will be the next thing that people will disagree with?

You are intentionally taking my point out of context, throwing old slogans and qoutes which have no relation to the subject.

No one is suggesting to outlaw the freedom of speech.

They attempt to lower hate crimes, which are generally fueled by hate speech.

I know Americans are totaly allienated to that concept, which I'm pretty certain most Europeans including Israelis gather.

And for your question - yes, it's illegal to spread racism and parties with racist agendas can't participate in our parliament. A radical right-wing party which had an agenda of throwing all the Arabs out of Israel was actually outlawed back in the 80s and it's members have been labelled as terrorists for attempting to use violence means aganst our Arab minority.

I don't know if you've heard of them, they are called "Kahanists", most of them are American Jews... guess they brought with them such ideas of freedom of speech eh?

[__Kratos__]

Kratos, wake up and look east. Another Hitler already exists, atleast in ideological similarities.

People like Hitler have existed, still exist, and will exist in the future.

The only difference is how much power do they have to impelement their ideology.

And in today's world, freedom of speech can actually enable you to influence millions of people's way of thinking.

It's easy to say "xenophobia can be solved through education".

The truth is that many of the top Nazis were elite physicians or highly educated officers.

Many of today's terrorist leaders are also coincidently doctors, so you can't claim they are ignorant.

Iran is a very advanced country in terms of the value it puts of education. Many Iranians are highly educated in math or physics.

Yet they still believe in radical ideologies.

Education can't change them, because it's something they were grown into. It's their culture and they pass down that culture to the rest of the population by using the freedom of speech granted to them after they forcely grabbed control.

So you're supporting to ban free speech in Holland over something Iran is doing? You think by banning to rip on Jews and deny the Holocaust is going to really solve anything? Free speech is worthless unless everybody has it...

You are intentionally taking my point out of context, throwing old slogans and qoutes which have no relation to the subject.

No one is suggesting to outlaw the freedom of speech.

They attempt to lower hate crimes, which are generally fueled by hate speech.

I know Americans are totaly allienated to that concept, which I'm pretty certain most Europeans including Israelis gather.

And for your question - yes, it's illegal to spread racism and parties with racist agendas can't participate in our parliament. A radical right-wing party which had an agenda of throwing all the Arabs out of Israel was actually outlawed back in the 80s and it's members have been labelled as terrorists for attempting to use violence means aganst our Arab minority.

I don't know if you've heard of them, they are called "Kahanists", most of them are American Jews... guess they brought with them such ideas of freedom of speech eh?

Old quote, still meaningful today though. You cut down one part of free speech and more will follow. People love to whine and complain.

Hate crimes... Why make a law for one group to treat them special? Believe it or not, but Jews aren't anymore special then anybody else. If they can't handle someone elses opinion, that would be their problem. What if someone wants to disagree with your opinion to ban it? How would that be for you then?

I saw a thread yesterday that annoyed me to death, some person was trying to tell me the moon is being faked... Should we make a law now against saying the moon isn't there?

There is a difference between freedom of speech and beating up someone. Don't confuse the two.